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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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Wes350
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Reged: 23/03/08
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Loc: CA,
Where are the Quality 98 Sporters??
      #162790 - 26/06/10 03:42 AM

I am a fan of the 98, but I'd like to play a little devil's advocate here...

You have the Zastava made mausers - which leave a bit to be desired, and basically go for less than $600us. Then you go straight to the 3K custom action with nothing in between.

You read in the gun rags and on-line how the mauser is "it". But yet no one makes a quality commercial mauser to the standard of the old Model A or B.

The 1911 is a pistol design that has been with us almost as long and it is still in commercial production. Yes is is made in varying degrees of quality, but it is avaliable in a dizzying array of quality/prices to fit your budget. Why not the same for the 98 when it is so lauded??

I don't count the CZ/Winchester/Rugers, because while they are mauser like, they never seem to have all the same features. It's not that I don't think the 98 action couldn't be refined a little, it just that everyone seems to be eliminating features to meet a price.

So if the 98 really is all that, then how come no one makes a quality sporter the same way Mauser did before the war??


.

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lancaster
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: Wes350]
      #162792 - 26/06/10 04:55 AM

post war mauser quality is the 3000$+ custum gun quality of today
thats all

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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HuntingSchneider
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: lancaster]
      #162793 - 26/06/10 05:04 AM



I think that Voere do a '98 model. Can't remember details though.

--------------------
Liberals, stealing firearms since '96.
Steal one firearm, you're a thief. Steal a million, you're a Prime Minister.

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taw1126
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: Wes350]
      #162794 - 26/06/10 05:12 AM

I think the answers are really in your question:

Quote:

The 1911 is a pistol design that has been with us almost as long and it is still in commercial production. Yes is is made in varying degrees of quality, but it is avaliable in a dizzying array of quality/prices to fit your budget.


I don't count the CZ/Winchester/Rugers, because while they are mauser like, they never seem to have all the same features. It's not that I don't think the 98 action couldn't be refined a little, it just that everyone seems to be eliminating features to meet a price.



So what's the difference between 1911's and Mauser actions? You can buy a Springfield/Ruger, and get a very servicable arm for a fair market price. Or you can dump some big $ in and get more features at the Ed Brown/Empire Rifles end of the spectrum.

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kuduae
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: HuntingSchneider]
      #162795 - 26/06/10 05:23 AM

The supply of ex-military surplus M98 actions has dried up by now, look at the prices paid nowadays by the military arms collectors/shooters for a decent K98. The cost today to make a decent M98 action alone is more than Euro 2000.-. It does not matter much if you make a Kurz, Standard or Magnum length action from scratch. Add a decent barrel, stock and sights, you simply end up in the 3k range. Voere M98 rifles, if still available, were made on reworked surplus actions. The other year Voere started advertizing a "truly modern wonder action" of their own design, nothing like a M98 anymore.

--------------------
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Bramble
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: kuduae]
      #162799 - 26/06/10 06:56 AM

Lancaster is correct, however the figures are a little off. It is not possible to build a quality genuine M98 action rifle for $ 3000.00 let alone make a profit.

I think what is often overlooked is that in 1956 a .275 base grade M98 Rigby was £ 150.00.

In todays money that represents more than £ 7000.00

Brand new, high quality M98 actioned rifles are indeed available today just as they always were, for around the same figure in real terms as they always were, however because there is a plethora of cheep rifles out there not many will pay for quality.

How many times do you read postings about buying such and such rifle, throwing away many of the components and replacing them with better ones, restocking, refinishing, waiting ages for some "custom" smith to do the work. Then the thing is only worth half what was spent on it in the second hand market, but so many think that it is a good deal.

Perhaps more people who do indeed love good firearms should consider that if they bought that £ 150 rifle in 1956 and looked after it well, they would likely get their money back in auction today.

That is a cheep 54 years shooting.

Regards

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DarylS
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: kuduae]
      #162800 - 26/06/10 06:56 AM

Mark 10 Mausers - are they no longer made? They are quality, 98 Mauser actions. Old Parker Hales show up now and then.
Inland, made in England seems to have a model 1903 Sprinfield-type bolt in a .98 action. Good triggers.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wes350
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: Bramble]
      #162802 - 26/06/10 07:14 AM

Quote:

I think the answers are really in your question:

So what's the difference between 1911's and Mauser actions? You can buy a Springfield/Ruger, and get a very servicable arm for a fair market price. Or you can dump some big $ in and get more features at the Ed Brown/Empire Rifles end of the spectrum.



Like I said, I don't count the brown/win/ruger/cz's as Mausers, because they are not. You got the $600 Zastava (which cheaps out on certain aspects) and then straight into 5K+ custom land for a complete rifle. There's nothing factory in the mid range.

A 1911 is a 1911. Nobody tries to call a SIG 220 or H&k USP a 1911. Nor any other gun made using operating principles derived from John Browings 1911. Just like people don't call a Beretta 92 a Walther P38. I feel same rule holds true for the Mauser 98.


Quote:

The supply of ex-military surplus M98 actions has dried up by now, look at the prices paid nowadays by the military arms collectors/shooters for a decent K98. The cost today to make a decent M98 action alone is more than Euro 2000.-. It does not matter much if you make a Kurz, Standard or Magnum length action from scratch. Add a decent barrel, stock and sights, you simply end up in the 3k range. Voere M98 rifles, if still available, were made on reworked surplus actions. The other year Voere started advertizing a "truly modern wonder action" of their own design, nothing like a M98 anymore.



I think that the avaliability of cheap 98 actions is what kept the 98 design from quality mass production for so long.

Once these "cheap" actions started running out, I don't think that anyone wanted to invest in making an action that required so many steps. Especially since the vast majority of consumers don't care about the differences. They only care about price. And so you begin to see the rise of the pushfeed action in the middle of the last century.

Quote:

post war mauser quality is the 3000$+ custum gun quality of today
thats all


Quote:

Lancaster is correct, however the figures are a little off. It is not possible to build a quality genuine M98 action rifle for $ 3000.00 let alone make a profit.

I think what is often overlooked is that in 1956 a .275 base grade M98 Rigby was £ 150.00.

In todays money that represents more than £ 7000.00
...



I must quibble with your example. A Rigby of any era is at least a semi-custom gun, and commanded some type of premium.

I think it would be a more apples to apples comparison if someone knows what a Mauser Model A cost in the pre-war era compared to other factory rifles of the same period.


.

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lancaster
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: Wes350]
      #162828 - 26/06/10 01:16 PM

rigby is not a good example because they never made actions. take a look at the FN post war production.
they had have all the machinery from military production to make the M 98 useless now when the assault rifle hit the market. this was the time when surplus mauser's were around in masses and cheap. but was also the time when working hours were cheap enough to make new actions for a price that was a real possibility for the customer looking for a brand new thing.
and dont forget there wasn't another possibility in this time when making a complete new bolt action
rifle than taking a mauser action.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Homer
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: lancaster]
      #162882 - 27/06/10 07:14 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Wes 350, I'm of the opinion that the Post War Browning Supreme, BRNO (ZG-47 & 600 Series) and current CZ manufactured versions of the Mauser M98 to be very good facsimiles of the original design (There must be some others as well but they don't spring to mind) and these actions should be even stronger, than the original M98!

You need to remember that the Soviet occupation of Czechoslovakia (in 1968), had a detrimental effect on the quality of some of the BRNO firearms or component parts, produced during this period. So make sure you aren't using one of these era rifles, as an general example of their abilities.
Look for the year of manufacture on the LHS junction, of action and barrel. Its a Two Digit Number (and Proof Marks) and just put 19 in front of it, for this date.

No shortage of the above actions, have been used to make up some very nice custom rifles!

HooRoo
From
Hommer

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CWJ1898
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Reged: 28/01/09
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Loc: LA, USA
Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: Homer]
      #162901 - 28/06/10 10:22 AM

Wes350:
I think your question runs through my head each day I wake! And many good points have been stated here, however I believe the real heart of the matter lies amid two primary factors. 1. The original Mauser Sporting Rifle was a complex design that required a multitude of machining operations to produce, thus today's streamlined and automated factory manufacturing processes are not particularly well suited to this sort of production- look no further than photographs of the dizzying array of machines in the pre-war Oberndorf Mauser complex to validate this point 2.) These rifles were produced with an incredible amount of hand labor (as lancaster points out), labor that is no longer obtainable as labor has become an increasingly difficult and expensive factor of the manufacturing equation while still realizing a profit- (simply look at the outsourcing of manufacturing to Asian factories due to the inexpensive labor practices there). I believe the Original pre-war Mausers are among the very best bolt action rifles ever made- anywhere. They were produced in a very small quantity (only 127,000 complete rifles, actions and barreled actions from 1898 to the end of the Second World War) when one considers the potential output of Mauser, who made many millions of M-98 rifles for foreign and domestic military contracts. Their rarity and quality of manufacture is the reason they are so sought after and why so few (Johannson, Empire, Prechtl, Satterlee, etc.) have invested the enormous capital to recreate them. These expenses can only be passed along to the customer in order for a company to survive.

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GoneShootin
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: CWJ1898]
      #166249 - 15/08/10 05:38 PM

The problem with the m98 is that it is probably a design that compromises by selecting design features over ease of manufacture, I personally see the m98 basically as the pinnacle of bolt action design, just about every sporter action that departs from the m98 design does so to ease manufacture to some degree and rarely actually improve anything.

I bought a parker hale 1200 super safari a while ago, and although the machining is rough inside, i'm quite happy with it, the only flaw is the magazine feed lips havn't been shaped correctly so feeding ammo when it's on the rhs of the stack is really bad. I'll have to attack it with a file.

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RigbyUser
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: GoneShootin]
      #169725 - 17/10/10 01:16 AM

Agree with most posters, the M98 is a superlative action, but most people will not pay what these things are worth today.
I think we should all remember that not many modern Mausers are being made, and the custom built actions will set you back a minimum of $3K.

Also, most of the ones we own and shoot are getting on in age, and it is important to remember that steel technology from 1920 till the early 50's wasn't a pinch on what we have today. Sure, those lovely original Mausers are beautiful to work and have that indescribable feel that modern actions can only dream about, the limitations are also real. The actions are a compromise and we need to be careful what we chamber them for and the pressures we load to.

I believe a steady diet of "hot" modern loads will end most Mausers in due course, but original cartridges loaded properly for hunting, but probably below that for practice will keep the old girls going for another generation of hunters

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458Win
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: RigbyUser]
      #171033 - 06/11/10 01:26 PM

You certainly can build a completly useable and reliable rifle on the MkX like my old 458


Or you can have something like the similar and not too expensive FN Mauser commercial action built into whatever sort of sporter that fits your fancy and pocketbook. Like my 30-06


--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Edited by CptCurl (07/11/10 08:58 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Where are the Quality 98 Sporters?? [Re: 458Win]
      #171053 - 07/11/10 01:38 AM

If I was looking for a M98 rifle and didn't want to go the custom expensive route or the cheapo Zastava, I would look on the second hand market. Simple!

Most of my rifles have been pre-owned.

Mark X, Parker Hale, and other models appear on the second hand markets from time to time.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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