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taw1126
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Is this a Type G?
      #162585 - 23/06/10 07:26 AM

Can one of you Mauser experts tell me what this is? It looks very similar to the "Type G" Huvius posted awhile back. Commercially marked Mauser action, and according to the seller, it is a square bridge action with an integral factory peep sight that folds down into the rear bridge.



Edited by CptCurl (23/06/10 08:54 PM)

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Tatume
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: taw1126]
      #162588 - 23/06/10 08:30 AM

That's a very interesting rifle. What caliber is it? Is the ring also square, or just the bridge?

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taw1126
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: Tatume]
      #162590 - 23/06/10 09:10 AM

It's an 8mm. Based on the vintage (22,000 SN range) I assume that meant 8x57 when it was manufactured, and an 8x57 will chamber. Unknown if it was later rechambered to 8x60. Apparently the ring is round...don't know how it is marked but the left wall is marked Waffenfabrik Mauser-Oberndorf and it has the commercial BU proofs.

I asked for a photo of the peep sight. Verbal description is that the peep and bridge have a filed cross-hatch pattern. Sounds like quality work but with a very limited knowledge of commercial Mausers and one so-so picture to work from it's hard to make any judgements on originality.

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Huvius
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: taw1126]
      #162597 - 23/06/10 11:19 AM

Assuming the stock is original, which it looks to be, it will be numbered to the gun with a "type" designation after the serial number.
22K range is around 1908.
I don't know much about the typeG's myself - Dons will likely help out.
The front sling swivel looks like it could be a later fitment. I would assume the sling swivel would have been with the barrel band which runs through the forend.
This looks much like an African model but with a shorter barrel and a military type floorplate release.
Looks very interesting. Better pictures of the gun, especially the rear bridge, would be great. The diopter sight may be quite interesting.

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taw1126
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: Huvius]
      #162606 - 23/06/10 02:20 PM

Quote:

The front sling swivel looks like it could be a later fitment. I would assume the sling swivel would have been with the barrel band which runs through the forend.



I thought the same thing, but couldn't figure out how they'd install the front one...isn't the front sight ramp integral with the barrel?

In the spirit of "nothing ventured, nothing gained" I decided to buy the rifle (after confirming the standard inspection period). The price is low if it's a commercial factory Mauser. If not, I'll be out some shipping charges. Either way I should be able to post more details and photos in the next week...maybe we'll learn something.

You may be right that it's an African. Looking through Speed's book tonight I noticed he shows an early African model in this style (military floorplate, double triggers, rounded pistol grip, and "flats" on the side of the stock) and mentions that the horn schnabel was an option.

The rear peep sight is the most curious thing. I didn't see any mention of a factory integral peep in Speed's book, the Hoffman design flip-up peep being the closest thing I could find.

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Huvius
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: taw1126]
      #162630 - 23/06/10 11:21 PM

The front band could have an open top so it can slide on past either side of the sight ramp.
I look forward to your report.

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dons
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: taw1126]
      #162632 - 23/06/10 11:46 PM

Would need the rifle in hand to make a final determination. If the stock is numbered to the gun, it is a reworked Mauser Type L African model. The barrel should be 28" long and it looks to be cut back. The peep sight does not look like a Mauser factory option. If the stock is not numbered to the gun, it is probably a guild piece and that would explain the configuration.

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kuduae
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: dons]
      #162637 - 24/06/10 01:08 AM

Stock, bolt handle, long cocking piece, triggerguard size and shape, tangent rear sight and the front-sight base are all pre-WW1/1912 Mauser commercial shape. The lever and the push-button release floorplates came only in later. On Mauser round barrels the front sight base was not integral, but merely soft soldered on, so there is no problem in removing or relocating. Only after 1913 front sights were soldered on with a band around the muzzle. Though the barrel may have been shortened or not and a new band swivel base added, such an early Mauser commercial rifle with a three-quarter length stock is a rare find! The letter A,B,C,G,F designations were not yet in use at that time by Mauser. A very similar rifle is shown on page 526, photo # 805 in Jon Speed's "Mauser Archive".

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taw1126
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: kuduae]
      #162639 - 24/06/10 01:42 AM

Thanks for all the comments guys...they are very helpful.

A shortened barrel would explain the added front sling attachment, although you wonder why someone would go to the trouble of adding one so close to the existing through-stock barrel band. And obviously that would be easy to do with a soldered sight ramp.

Just so I'm clear: I should expect to see the serial number (or several of the last digits) in the stock inletting. If I don't find that, we're looking at a guild gun? Would you expect a guild gun to be built on a commercially-marked Mauser barreled action?

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kuduae
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: taw1126]
      #162643 - 24/06/10 03:48 AM

Before WW1, the Mauser patents were still valid. Anyone wanting to build a M98 action rifle had to buy a commercial action from Mauser. The only other makers of M98 actions at that time were DWM, who made only military rifles for export, and the German state arsenals. So you had to either buy a new, complete military rifle by DWM and sporterize it or buy in an action or barreled action from Mauser. Those commercial actions by Mauser sold to other gunmakers can most often only be identified by the Mauser serial number stamped under the receiver ring and on the rear wall of the magazine box, invisible on the assembled rifle. If you care to go through Jon Speed's books carefully, you will notice Mauser up to 1914 sold about two thirds of their commercial production as actions only or barreled actions to other gunmakers like Sauer &Sohn, Haenel, Rigby, Holland & Holland and you name them, most of them through wholesalers and export/import houses. Only the aftermath of WW1 with hundredthousands of ex-military rifles on the world market changed all this.
So most of the pre-WW1 Suhl made rifles marked by other retailers are indeed assembled on Original Mauser actions. There was no such thing as a "guild gun" in Germany! The "Guild gun" is an invention of American collectors who did not understand how the European guntrade worked.

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kuduae
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: kuduae]
      #162644 - 24/06/10 04:05 AM

I fear I am repeating myself: I am 100% sure this is an Original Mauser pre-1912 commercial sporting rifle, albeit of an unusual, rare configuration. At that time Mauser experimented with several foreend lengths to satisfy customer's tastes. You will find the complete serial number on the left side of the receiver ring, the rear of the magazine box and in the channel under the barrel shank. Also note: The set trigger assembly is not mounted in a seperate housing mounted in the trigger guard like all aftermarket DSTs are. Instead, the trigger guard itself is milled to take the set trigger parts with the long spring on the right side.
May you please post, in due time, a close-up photo of the receiver bridge and the peep sight?

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taw1126
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: kuduae]
      #162646 - 24/06/10 04:45 AM

Don't fear- I needed the clarification. I noted a numebr of early actions/barreled actions going to Merkel, Sauer, etc. in Speed's book; when I've seen these rifles for sale, however, I don't believe I've seen any that had the WFM roll mark and/or serial numbers that appear to be "right" for factory Mauser production.

Maybe I'm just trying to "wish" this into being a modified factory commercial piece, but one of the things I latched onto in the conversation with the seller was the WFM roll mark and serial number range on the barrel shank & receiver.

I'll happily post some pictures on receipt so you guys can help me figure out what it is.

EDIT: I asked the seller to send me a picture of the peep sight before he boxes it up this afternoon. If he delivers, I'll post it here.

Edited by taw1126 (24/06/10 05:37 AM)

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kuduae
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: taw1126]
      #162648 - 24/06/10 05:45 AM

Well, in these years of production the "Waffenfabrik Mauser" roll mark was on the left receiver rail. Most of the time the receiver ring was marked with WFM and year of production again, but this is not consistent. The Mauser "ton" logo was only introduced in the 1920s. "Actions only" for sale to others were only marked with the Commercial serial number on the underside. Other markings were unnecessary, as Mauser was the only source for M98 actions. So if you see a Mauser actioned rifle by S&S,Merkel or others, you may only recognize an original Oberndorf commercial action by the "earmarks", that is bolt-handle shape, long firing pin nut, shape and size of trigger guard, absence of seperate DST housing. Any visible inscriptions and numbers will be those of the company who put the rifle together or even the retailer. If you ever encounter one of the early "Original Brenneke Leipzig" rifles, close inspection will reveal a commercial action by Mauser and, in hidden places, the ESHA stamp of Schmidt & Habermann, Suhl, who put together nearly all repeaters for Brenneke.

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dons
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: kuduae]
      #162649 - 24/06/10 05:47 AM

I would agree with kuduae that this is most likely an original Mauser commercial rifle and the stock will carry a matching number. I am inclined however to put my money on a modified shortened barrel rather than a rare factory configuration. I also want to see photos of the peep sight.

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kuduae
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: dons]
      #162651 - 24/06/10 07:27 AM

Dons, when I said "Rare factory configuration" I was talking about the long, horn tipped foreend, not about barrel length! The barrel certainly has been shortened and the band foreend swivel added. I am not sure if the peep sight may have come from the factory, on those early Mausers everything is possible, or if it is a later modification. The rifle in the Mauser Archive has got the same configuration with the long, horn schnabel tipped foreend, but a much longer barrel and the sling swivel through the foreend into the barrel band.

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taw1126
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: kuduae]
      #162656 - 24/06/10 11:43 AM

Okay, here's the sight photos from the seller. The only thing I can say definitively is that me & this rifle will be spending some quality time with a bottle of Kroil.

But to my uneducated eye this looks like 1) a bona fide commercial Mauser; 2) a square bridge action; and 3) a windage adjustable tangent sight is installed. Tonight I noticed a very similar sight in Speed's sporting rifles book that I overlooked before; check out the Kurz action on page 96, plate #156.





Edited by CptCurl (24/06/10 09:09 PM)

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Huvius
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: taw1126]
      #162665 - 24/06/10 02:02 PM

There is a ton of work in that peep sight!
Looks to have actual adjustment as opposed to the Hoffman type which had only windage adjustment through the dovetail IIRC.
After a bit of cleanup, should be a very usable rifle - congrats on your find!

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taw1126
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: Huvius]
      #162670 - 24/06/10 03:14 PM

Thanks. The seller didn't help himself, under-advertising as a "Mauser Type B with Peep Sight".

After poring over/through Speed's book again tonight I found something interesting in the "Special Range Rifle" section, a $25 option listed in the text of the Stoeger catalogue description (page 176, plate #351):
"No. 621 - Same as above, with collapsible peep sight fitted in square top bridge"

That ad ran some 20+ years after this rifle was made, but seems to lend additional evidence that this is factory work (along with the Kurz mentioned in the other post).

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dons
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: taw1126]
      #162709 - 24/06/10 09:36 PM

This is turning out to be a very interesting Mauser.

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taw1126
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: dons]
      #162721 - 25/06/10 12:54 AM

Quote:

This is turning out to be a very interesting Mauser.



Yes, I'm looking forward to seeing it in person. "My" gunsmith is an admitted commercial Mauser addict, and probably the person most responsible for getting me to look at something besides Winchester lever actions (same guy who put some TLC into Osa Johnson's Type A after BFaucett purchased it). Unless something comes completely off the tracks I intend to see if he can remove that forward barrel band and refit a swivel into the other one. Beyond that, I'm afraid the Winchester collecting is going to suffer for awhile as I suspect I'll be off in search of another Mauser...

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kuduae
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: taw1126]
      #162730 - 25/06/10 07:20 AM

That peep sight is really unique! According to Jon Speed he has never seen this arrangement before. It is completely different from the detachable peep sight offered for the Range Rifle many years later. At that time, 1908, Mauser still experimented with a lot of factory options like scope mounts to test the market. Despite the shortened barrel the rifle with the peep sight and the 3/4 length foreend is IMHO a very rare and collectible example of a pre-WW1 commercial Mauser! I hope your gunsmith can do a good job restoring the finish, but you both should avoid to make a "new" rifle from this piece of history. Congratulations!

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taw1126
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: kuduae]
      #162755 - 25/06/10 02:47 PM

Quote:

I hope your gunsmith can do a good job restoring the finish, but you both should avoid to make a "new" rifle from this piece of history.



I wouldn't go so far as to say restoration- I learned from experience that I don't personally like restored guns, even when done by top-quality shops like Turnbull, preferring those that are well cared for with original signs of use. But that metal looks very thirsty for plain old oil and a rag, and if the (apparently) non-original barrel band can be removed without causing further damage I want to get it off as well. I don't plan to do any restoring beyond that.

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eagle27
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: taw1126]
      #162760 - 25/06/10 05:31 PM

From Ludwig Olson's "Mauser Bolt Rifles" this looks to be an altered Special Range Rifle although of course could have been ordered with a sporterised shortened stock sans the hand guard normally fitted but retaining the black horn forend cap. This variant of the 98 Mauser had a tangent rear sight as well as "a collapsible peep sight fitted to a square-top receiver bridge". It was made between the wars in 30-06 but could be had on order in any regular Mauser caliber.

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taw1126
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Re: Is this a Type G? [Re: eagle27]
      #162773 - 26/06/10 12:11 AM

Quote:

From Ludwig Olson's "Mauser Bolt Rifles" this looks to be an altered Special Range Rifle...had a tangent rear sight as well as "a collapsible peep sight fitted to a square-top receiver bridge".



I don't have that reference (yet) but based on the photos in Speed's book I don't think it is a Special Range Rifle. It resembles the African Model in every way, with the exception of the shorter barrel. But I definitely agree that the peep sight listed as an option for the Special Range Rifle fits the description of what is on this one.

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