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bakerb
.224 member


Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO
Double rifle holding values?
      #162239 - 18/06/10 03:04 AM

I'm sure this is a dumb question, and maybe answered long before.

How do double rifles hold their value?

Here's my reason. . . I'm dreaming of Africa, and really want to hunt with a double rifle. I know a lot of people buy a double for Africa, use it then sell it. I would rather not do that, but if I only got to Africa a few times, what is the point in keeping something? Unless it is worth something and will retain it's value and be a cool keepsake for the kids, or be able to be sold by the kids someday. It would of course be a very cool keepsake for me, and I hate to get rid of stuff like that.

Before, in my dreaming, I thought I would try out Merkel (I've handled them at stores and they don't seem to fit me), Heym, Kreighoff (also handled and like, but wary of decocker), and maybe even a Searcy, find the one that fit me best and buy their plain-jane "cheaper" models. Like a Searcy classic, Kreighoff Big Five, Heym PH, etc.

However, I got to thinking, would it be smarter to upgrade for a nicer model of double, to keep? Would it hold value better? I don't mean like H&H or Westley Richards, etc. here. Nicer models of the above makers

What I was thinking was like a Searcy Sidelock with the long tang, extended trigger guard, sideplates with scroll (not fancy engraving, can't afford that), which by my figuring would run around $26k, OR

A Heym Safari with the extras, which would probably again be around $25k or so, OR

A Krieghoff Gold Classic that has the scroll engraving and sideplates and long tang and long trigger guard, which I found one new at Bass Pro for $22k, OR

Jump up to around $34k or so for like a Rigby boxlock?

Will the "fancier" doubles of the same makers hold value better? Will they hold any value at all?

Thanks a lot for your input on this. I have too much time on my hands to be dreaming of stuff like this. But I've got 3 new Africa books on order, so while waiting, I look at double websites.

Thanks again

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.


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herrdoktor
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Reged: 03/08/07
Posts: 85
Loc: Spain
Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: bakerb]
      #162243 - 18/06/10 04:19 AM

Hello, Bake:

The pleasure of "christening", be a double or a sports car, is a expensive one

Maybe a better approach is as follows:

1) Look for a sound second hand double that suit your taste and shooting style, preferably of a known maker
2) Compare the price you can get with the price of the new rifle
3) Buy it, use it (and not only in Africa...), enjoy it, treating it with respcet and care
4) Then, think sincerely if you want to send it. If so, be sure you will send it more or less by the same price as if you had bought it new. If you are not in a hurry, and your adquisition was reasonable, you can expect sending it more or less for the same price...

Best wishes

Antonio


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Huvius
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: herrdoktor]
      #162245 - 18/06/10 04:41 AM

Bake,
At those prices you could get into a nice classic double.
If value retainment is what you are looking for, I would steer clear of a new gun.
Sounds like you have time to shop around and learn a bit more about what makes some more desirable than others. Go to some shows and dealers to handle some really good guns - old and new - to see what you prefer.
I don't know how old your kids are, but I feel long term (20-30yrs) the (California) Rigby boxlock will be the dog of the bunch. Better to pony up an extra $10-15K and get into an old Holland Royal.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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bakerb
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Loc: SW MO
Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: Huvius]
      #162246 - 18/06/10 05:00 AM

My kid is one and I'm 28, if that give you an idea

I never thought this long term before my son came along.

I guess I'm just thinking stupidly. I was at Bass pro the other day, and they had a fine gun room with two brand new Krieghoffs. A Classic big five in .500 for $12k, and a Gold Imperial .500 with all the extras for $23k. And I LOVED the Imperial. It was beautiful. Pretty much the same damn gun, but I liked the pretty one better.

Same thing happens when I look at the Searcy site. I think the Classic boxlock would be perfect, then I look at the pictures of the sidelock with the extras, and I would rather have the "pretty" gun.

Seems dumb, just had to wonder if the extras would help a new gun retain its value a bit better.

I wouldn't mind a nice classic rifle, but I'm awfully wary because I don't know much at all about doubles.


All my looking and dreaming is done via internet, and I've never yet seen a used Holland Royal.

But the wife and I are planning a 5 year anniversary trip next year to London, Paris and then probably down to Venice. I thought while I was in London, there are several things I can't miss. . . Churchill's bunker (which I've seen and would love to go back), the Natural History Museum (which I missed last time), and Holland and Holland showroom. Aren't there some more showrooms for doubles around London too?

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: bakerb]
      #162248 - 18/06/10 05:19 AM

In London, this is the place to go: http://www.jroberts-gunmakers.co.uk

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: xausa]
      #162249 - 18/06/10 06:53 AM

Please do not spend $32k on a new Calif Rigby, for that money, given a years looking you can find a nice UK classic double from years ago and you'll never lose a bean, best, Mike

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Grenadier
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #162255 - 18/06/10 07:29 AM

Quote:

Please do not spend $32k on a new Calif Rigby, for that money, given a years looking you can find a nice UK classic double from years ago and you'll never lose a bean, best, Mike




+1

You can pick one up for less depending on make and age. There is nothing wrong with buying a new gun from a good maker but you will have a period of time before the increase in the gun's worth (a good double will appreciate not depreciate) overcomes the initial loss of value suffered because it was purchased new. A good second hand rifle will never loose value unless you abuse it or it suffers some sort of accident.


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470evans
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Reged: 30/03/05
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: Grenadier]
      #162276 - 18/06/10 05:23 PM

Good advise here. When I bought my first double, a William Evans 470, my buddy bought a new Chapuis 470. I've had the gun for 6 years and would make a nice profit if I decided to sell. My buddy would be out about 1/3 of his purchase price. I've since bought 13 other doubles and sold 5 of them. All of them but one were vintage british doubles and I made a nice profit on 4 of the 5, the 5th one I sold for what I paid for it. I suspect if you sink more into a new gun than the base model you will tend to lose more.

The key on a vintage gun is to have it checked out throughly by a qualified gunmaker, not the local gunsmith before you buy.

Edited by 470evans (18/06/10 05:25 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: 470evans]
      #162340 - 19/06/10 03:18 PM

Just my opinions.

If buying a new current issue rifle, you will mostly likely loose some off the new price if re-selling it reasonably quickly after purchasing it. Simple logic, if someone can buy the same rifle "new" themselves, why would they pay the same price for a used firearm?

Some factors can change that "logic" of course.

The waiting time for a new rifle. If it takes two years to get a 'brand new one' some guys don't want to wait and 'want it now!'

Also if you are selling it several years after buying it, has the prices of new ones gone up.

Vintage double rifles are a scarce commodity and it is simple, no more are being made, because they are vintage, as demand increases, supply is limited, their value appreciates.

Personally I'm not into the idea of buying a double rifle for a one off safari and then re-selling it. Much preferable to take a rifle the hunter is familiar with, rather than a rifle the client has rarely used and has little experience with.

The idea that a double rifle is only usable on a safari is erroneous though anyway. I use mine in Australia for buffalo, bulls, donkeys, goats, pigs and occasionally deer.

In North America I imagine they would go well on moose, deer and pigs.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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WesF
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Reged: 17/03/10
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Loc: Montana
Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: bakerb]
      #162358 - 19/06/10 05:58 PM

Hi Bake,

I think the previous posters are spot on in their advice. I just wanted to chime in because its nice to see another guy my age on these forums. I'm 28 and own two vintage double rifles. For the money, I'd rather purchase a vintage double simply because they are just plain neat. The history is part of the nostalgia with these rifles. Spend some time shopping for a double that really rings your bell. Don't settle. If it doesn't make your eyes pop out of your head, your tongue flop out of your mouth, and your heart race, its not the gun for you. And chances are if the gun does all that for you, it'll do the same for another buyer when it comes time to sell it.

~Wes


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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US
Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: WesF]
      #162374 - 19/06/10 10:08 PM

Good comments above. I agree with buying the vintage guns, and only English at that. As previously said, the new rifles lose a bunch of value after the first shot. There is no collector value, only intrinsic in new guns unless made by someone special.
My opinion.
John


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Paul
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: WesF]
      #162376 - 19/06/10 10:09 PM

Guns of most kinds are like houses; buy a new one and it will lose value initially, but will hold it in real terms (if not damaged too much) after that. So, as an investment, it's best to buy s/h.

As with houses in good locations, some guns and rifles might give better returns than others. And while the London makers lift their prices with seeming impunity, their previously sold pieces will go along for the ride. So, joining the club may be costly but after that you can congratulate yourself whenever H&H put up their prices by 10 per cent.

Currency fluctuations should affect these things though and, since the pound has been down recently, it could be a good time to buy - if you can find a seller who will concede this point, that is.

- Paul


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: bakerb]
      #162748 - 25/06/10 10:19 AM

BakerB, If you are only 28 yrs old, and your son is only one yr old, and you want to keep the rifle for a keepsake for your son, after you pass on, then there is one thing nobody here has made clear. The vintage rifle you buy today didn’t sell for the large profit when it was only 10 yrs old, it was simply a ten yr old used rifle, and carried the attendant reduction in price compared to a new one. What I mean by this is, by the time you die, and your son take possession of the “KEEPSAKE” it will have it’s own history, and one that has family history at that. By that time the new ones may not even look like a classic double rifle! Look at the trend of them now like the Blaser S2. It may be a double rifle but nobody would call it a classic design.

The new rifle today is what it is! They are very well made double rifles, made of far better steel, and if insured and lost or damaged on it’s way to, or from Africa, it can be replaced with one exactly like the one you lost. Another thing you need to keep in mind is if you don’t know much about double rifles, or know someone who does know a LOT about double rifles you can get burned pretty badly by some of the pimped up junk that is on the vintage market today. The guard against this is a reputable dealer, like Champlin’s in Enid Ok. If you are set on a vintage double, my suggestion to you is to pay Champlin’s a visit. There you can walk into a vault that will hold a hundred or so double rifles on any given day. George Caswell, and J.J. Paradeau are a couple of the most knowledgeable people in the USA where double rifles are concerned, and will not steer you wrong.
Not everybody who buys a double rifle turns out to be a double rifle person, and because they find out after the purchase that they simply were on the wrong track. You would not believe the number of good double rifles I’ve bought for discount prices simply because the guy who bought the rifle thought a double rifle was something that it wasn’t, and because they can’t make it shoot properly, think they have bought a lemon, and want to rid themselves of it.
I think also, that most new to double rifles either buy a cheap peace of crap because of the a low price, or buy too large of chambering and then cant live with the result. It is my opinion that if one has no background with double rifles, or the afore mentioned support people to help him, he should buy NEW, or a used newly made double and start with smaller chambering. If he absolutely must have an over .400 cal, then my choice would be a plain old 450NE 3 1/4” because .458 dia bullets are a dime a dozen, and brass is easy to find. The 450NE 3 1/4” is the cartridge that all other big bore are judged by, and will handle just about anything you want to hunt, yet still be economical to shoot a lot. But I think however for a first double rifle, something like a nice new, or new used 9.3X74R double rifle. I find of the people I know who own and hunt with double rifles hunt everything with double rifles, and every one of them owns a 9.3X74R double rifle

The fact is with a budget of up to $20K of the new rifles my pick would be the Heym 88B for around $16K and spend the other $4K on on another Buffalo trophy fee! If you find you are not a double rifle man, then the Heym is an easy rifle to sell without loss!

None of what I have posted here is iron clad, but simply my opinion, and not something that is not open to opposite opinion!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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jcs271
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Reged: 28/07/09
Posts: 19
Loc: Still Free State of Montana
Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #162783 - 26/06/10 02:19 AM

One other option, Cabelas is the exclusive dealer on the Sabatti double rifles. They are proving to be an outstanding rifle and they are priced at "only" 5 thousand. I bought a 450NE and it is a great rifle. Might be something that you could afford to buy and shoot now, you won't lose any money on the deal and you can either keep it forever or trade up when finances are better. Good Luck!

--------------------
"carrying a fine rifle in good country makes a man feel like a King."


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crkennedy1
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Reged: 05/12/08
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: jcs271]
      #162805 - 26/06/10 07:34 AM

Since we've now digressed to "Doubles-on-the-cheap", you need to consider the Remington SPR22 in 45-70 or 30-06! @ about $1000 a piece (I'm sure there are gun snobs everywhere reading this and cringing). While those blokes are getting old saving for the "ultimate double", we'll have been to Africa a half dozen times and have the heads on the wall to prove it!... (truth be known, I'd kill for a Holland & Holland...shhhhhh)

--------------------
DOUBLE or NOTHING


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Dutch44
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: crkennedy1]
      #162808 - 26/06/10 07:55 AM

I just returned from spending two days with George at Champlins working some deals. Had a great visit and saw many used doubles that were in great condition between $19,000.00 and $29,000. They are holding their value in my opinion. I have had the opportunity to handle and price many fine doubles over the past 10 years and have watched the increase for quality used guns. While there may be no steals out there I believe that your money invested in a good double will hold it's value while you have the opportunity to hunt, shoot and enjoy it.

Dutch


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: bakerb]
      #162810 - 26/06/10 08:18 AM

bakerb,

My advice, for what little it's worth, is this:

For a first double rifle:

* buy new; or better yet, buy new second hand.
* buy a medium caliber, not a big boomer.
* buy a caliber for which there is reasonably cheap factory ammo.


There's a steep learning curve with a double rifle. Sure you are adept with your bolt gun or single shot, but double rifles are a new world.

You should expect your double rifle to tolerate only one load. It is often said you can use different weight bullets in your double. That's a substantial part of the logic behind recommending a .450 NE ("there are sooo many sizes and shapes of .458 bullets"). Let me tell you it's false. I have shot and I have owned a hell of a bunch of double rifles. Invariably my experience has been that a double rifle will tolerate only one load. That means one bullet weight at one specific velocity using one specific powder. That's my experience. Others on these forums report brighter horizons. They evidently have magic fingers and pray to the correct god. I don't.

You didn't say whether you are an accomplished ammunition reloader. If not, a double rifle is the absolute wrong rifle to learn reloading on. I'm not going to expound on that comment. Just take it as the gospel. If you are an experienced reloader, you'll have plenty to learn with a double.

A Chapuis, Merkel, Heym, Searcy, or Sabatti would be a good choice. Buy it second hand in excellent condition. The guy before you has taken the depreciation. You take care of the rifle and it won't lose more value.

A medium caliber is far more useful than a boomer. For example, 9.3x74R. You can hunt any North American game with it. You can hunt any African antelope with it. If you are good you can kill a buffalo with it. It's a fun caliber to shoot and doesn't cost the farm. I'm not wild about the short barrels Chapuis and Merkel put on their rifles of this caliber. I like barrels at least 24" long. The ideal length may indeed be 26" on a double.

The rifle I'm recommending won't set you back too hard in the $$$. The value will not decline. If you decide you don't particularly like double rifles (not everybody does), you can sell it and be done. You'll have your money back and can buy some bolts.

On the other hand, double rifles are a lot like potato chips. If you like them, you can't eat just one. If your first DR makes you feel good, you'll know what to do next.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bakerb
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Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO
Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: CptCurl]
      #162811 - 26/06/10 08:56 AM

Well, after this thread and the other I started, here's what the dream is now. . .

A new Searcy sidelock in 450 3.25 NE with 26 inch barrels, nickel finish with rose and scroll engraving just like the one on the Searcy sidelock page. Long tang and long trigger guard. My last name of Baker engraved on the bottom of the receiver in front of the trigger guard

Talley bases on the rib because they look very unobtrusive

This way if my kids are into it they can keep it as an heirloom. If not they can sell it and hopefully it will be worth something in 50 years (hopefully its that long)

Bake

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.


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bakerb
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Reged: 03/09/08
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Loc: SW MO
Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: bakerb]
      #162813 - 26/06/10 09:35 AM

Actiually I'm kinda torn between the coin and case hardened finish

--------------------
Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: bakerb]
      #162814 - 26/06/10 10:19 AM

If doing the Searcy, do the boxlock. If you want to spend that kind of money, get a London sidelock. A Searcy sidelock is going to lose value like dropping money down a well.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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poprivit
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: CptCurl]
      #162870 - 27/06/10 08:57 AM

bakerb - one advantage to buying a Searcy is that you can pick up the phone and call him in Boron, CA at any time. He'll build you most anything that shoots up to and including a 4 Bore. I'd stay with the advice here - go for a medium caliber for your first one. I did just that in 1995. Bought a Remington 700 in .416 Rem Mag; took it to Botswana and shot five heads including a buf. In 2010 money I was in the gun under $1500.

Then I bought a Westley-Richards 450/400 that was built in 1910. $6500 in 1995. It went to Africa in 1998.

Loved that rifle.

Sold that rifle

I never said I was smart.

I've now got a Ruger Hawkeye in .416 Ruger that's going up by the Limpopo in August. It's not very romantic, but it only set me back $800, plus $400 for the Leupold 1-4x20. The money I saved by buying the Ruger is now in a money market account.

Yup, I want, and will have, another Westley Richards. This time, I won't sell, ever.

BTW: The Ruger does cloverleafs at 50 yards with Hornady factory 400-gr. DGX. Little feller DO kick a tad, though.


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LGF
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: CptCurl]
      #163227 - 02/07/10 04:17 PM

Curl -

you said you would not expound on your comment re: a double being the wrong gun with which to learn reloading. However, I am interested in your thoughts - please expound. I had reloaded a lot of pistol ammo on a Dillon, but learned rifle ammo when I bought a .470. I always wonder what bad habits and general stupidity I have taught myself. Had the Wright book, of course.

Thanks for your insights.

Edited by LGF (02/07/10 04:36 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: LGF]
      #163231 - 02/07/10 08:05 PM

LGF,

A double rifle action is not nearly so strong as a bolt action rifle. Consequently, the working pressures are much lower.

Often with a bolt we read pressure signs by the shape of the fired primer - flattening, cratering, etc.; the case bulge just in front of the web; sticky extraction, etc. You can't rely on these signs with a double rifle because by the time any one of them shows you have far exceeded safe pressure.

With a bolt or single shot there's no issue of achieving proper regulation. However, that's of great importance in a DR, and it's usually tied closely to bullet weight.

DR's often appear in obsolete and obscure calibers, and in many instances these cartridges weren't subject to industry standard. We therefore see variations in chamber and barrel dimensions that must be heeded.

I'm sure there are half a dozen other issues that set DR's apart. A novice reloader will find success with a .30-06 bolt gun without damaging the rifle or his face and hands. He should master that before even considering a DR.

In the end, I'm not the reloading police, and everyone is free to chart his own course. DR's are not the same as bolts.

Curl

P.S.

Remember this is a thread about DR values. Thus, I wasn't going to expound about reloading.

C

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (02/07/10 08:08 PM)


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Classic416
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Reged: 08/09/06
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Loc: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: CptCurl]
      #163254 - 03/07/10 02:14 AM

I don't own a double rifle; but I believe this of all good quality rifles. They may not make you any money, but they will keep their value; that both being monetary and nostalgically. Buy the best you can afford, and like. I like the look of the 455 EEL's if getting a new, that's not British, rifle re: costs. If going second hand, get a Wesley Richards. All the other posts were right on the mark; especially medium calibre eg 375 H&H and shoot it heaps! In fact; just get a Wesley Richards, new or old.http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/used_guns_2_product.php?id=26219

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Classic416
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Re: Double rifle holding values? [Re: Classic416]
      #163255 - 03/07/10 02:19 AM

http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/used_guns_2.php

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