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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Woodleigh Hydro result
      #162104 - 15/06/10 06:35 AM

Self explanatory tale from a Sunday morning hunt posted elsewhere by my hunt mate.

After an early 3.15 AM start to the day I drove to Griff`s joint and we had a quick coffee and a bit of a yarn about the plan to go into one of the secret spots that the weather that morning was perfect for with the wind direction of utmost importance being a primary factor in selecting the approach with the anticipation of deer coming up from the creek mouth about 1.5 clicks below.

After arriving 1/2 hour before daylight at our valley entry point we descended into a wide deep gully that had suffered in the recent fires and which had left exposed countless round stones on the steep slope that made the going pretty ordinary in the dark. Finally reaching a game trail above the the valley bottom we made our way slowly down valley expecting and hoping to see an animal at any time. On reaching the next spur I spotted movement and Griff saw me answer him with a "hind signal".

He couldn't see her from his position so he came carefully came back the five metres to me and promptly announced after a quick bino look "its a real fat velvet spikey shoot the bastard! Then I saw another deer 50 metres above and to its right which Griff picked up and identified as a 15 inch stag that was rough as guts in the antler dept.

The two deer were slightly down and opposite us on the other side of the creek around 180 yards away and were moving in and about heavy fern. At times I could see them and other times only Griff could. I then wanted to make my way to a tree about 20 yards away to use as a rifle rest but was warned that they would more than likely spring us as we were still in open burnt bush on our side with bugger all undergrowth around us. It was still fairly darkish under the forest canopy at 7.20 AM in this gully but the risk of noise was too great to move deeper down.

After watching them for 15 minutes waiting for a good target opp eventually the spikey became a none target due to the heavy fern cover and tall trees mostly obscuring him so the decision was made for me to take the shot at the stag instead. He had a real mongrel head on him but looked fat also and then at times we could see him rubbing a black wattle which was great to watch although he was often covered by the foliage of other bushes while he moved around the tree.

Griff had already passed me a 6 foot long stick by this time,it was about an inch in dia and had me use it as a monopod shooting stick ,mind you with the words "dont fuck up" haha so I planted it firmly into the ground rested my 30`06 Ruger on it after having already turned the Leupold 2.5 x 8 to 5 x and as the stag turned side on facing slightly away and looking uphill I sent one of the new Hydro 180 grain projectiles into him with the pill driving in from behind the left side shoulder and into and out of the opposite shoulder. The stag dropped instantly as if a semi trailer had landed on his back and rolled five metres down slope through the ferns and came to rest above the creek,Griff gave me a 'well done' with a hand shake congrats for the top kill shot and we sat there for another 15 minutes just watching and waiting. The remark from Griff about the bullet performance was summed up in a few words, something like ' that was devastating!'
The other deer the fat velvet spikey had intitially jumped at the shot sound and bolted into cover and stood waiting for his mate and then sneaked off unseen some time later.
I stood shotgun on my side of the gully while Griff went upstream and crossed the creek and found the deer in the ferns and I then made my way over after his whistle and was feeling pretty good about the whole show of watching sambar deer feeding and rubbing and then taking one out especially using a projectile made by a great mate.
Incidentally Griff had his 358 NM loaded with the Hydro`s as well.

After the obligatory photo sesh and meat carve up and the usual banter we loaded up for and dreading the 45 minute "straight up" climb of about 1200 metres to the ute and headed back for a couple of thirst quenching stubbies back at Griffs around 11 AM.

The little mongrel is rough alright,one brow is a pimple like lump protruding out of the beam and an all over the place set of antlers meant he was a good one to take out. He went 15 and a 1/4 inches btw with nothing big about him but the day was just one of those ripper days out in the bush. Eye fillet steak tonight!




I will add myself that the Hydro bullet was indeed devastating and from the shot entry/exit I`m not so sure a normal old ave hunting bullet would have done exactly the same thing.Griff.


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Ben
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Reged: 22/08/08
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Loc: Northern Territory, Australia
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: gryphon]
      #162106 - 15/06/10 06:54 AM

Well-done on a magnificent stag!

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Mcleish
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Reged: 30/06/10
Posts: 64
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: gryphon]
      #163931 - 13/07/10 08:47 AM

Hi Gryphon

What was the exit wound like?

How much tissue damage (diameter)around the entry shoulder and the exit shoulder? Sorry not sure if you took the whole carcass out or not?

Cheers

Mcleish

--------------------
Fallow might be small, but they're tasty


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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: Mcleish]
      #163932 - 13/07/10 08:56 AM

A fine tale! East Gippo way?

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: kamilaroi]
      #163938 - 13/07/10 10:27 AM

In and out were simply holes much the same size..I can tell you from what I have seen the hydro`s seem to have "IT" as say a hard Nosler Part or so would have drilled straight through and NOT done what the hydro did imo.
I have shot a mature sambar stag through both shoulders with a Nosler Partition out of my 300 WM and he kept going for another couple of 100 or so,I would lay dough on it that the same shot would have walloped him on the spot using a hydro

I shot this bumpy head on Fri evening with a Hydro out of my .358 Norma Mag..way overkill of course but there was only 1 % meat damage...basically a tunnel,they must produce tremendous shock.
Had a chance to take the hind but couldn't hold well enough on her from a very uncomfortable possy so I let the chance go,these deer were only 5-600 from the car hence the shot.

I hear Federal in the US are very impressed with them..oops maybe thats a secret haha.

About 200 miles from E/Gipp K





I snapped this pic of a big young stag under one of his preach trees last week and would have loved to have drilled him with the 358 Hydro in the shoulder but I`m waiting on his sire.





Edited by gryphon (13/07/10 10:30 AM)


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: gryphon]
      #163940 - 13/07/10 10:39 AM

before the reader get`s carried away with 'oh he`s a farm deer out in the open' only five metres or so from him is a wall of this comprising of a thousand acres of the shit.



and a calf caught in one of the clearings surrounded by tea -tree



and a different calf in another tea tree shit fight hah



hind and calf




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Mcleish
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Reged: 30/06/10
Posts: 64
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: gryphon]
      #163943 - 13/07/10 10:56 AM

Thanks for the info Gryphon


have you got any minimum velocity info on them or a ballistic coefficient, there is nothing on the Woodleigh website.. What the aprox cost on a .358 projectile?


Cheers


McLeish

--------------------
Fallow might be small, but they're tasty


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: Mcleish]
      #163944 - 13/07/10 11:18 AM

Cost? I haven't a clue as Frank ran 60 up for me as a mate.

Only an email or ph call away.

I have only had three loaded for me by my gunsmith when he built up the rifle and have been hunting with the 3 of them only,Sat and Sun I hunted with the remaining two and thats what I will take with me this evening.I dont have any others loaded.
I sighted my rifle with Norma 250 Oryx that the gunsmith loaded,I shot them all off to get used to the rifle and I dont handload myself so the tch stuff will have to come from another source Mcleish .

John Marrozi the co/inventor of the Hydros has my stuff and is going to load them for me this week I believe,he will prob indicate what they will be doing.


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CHAPUISARMES
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Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: Mcleish]
      #163945 - 13/07/10 11:19 AM


Hi McLeish,

Geoff told me that they work at the same powder rate as the same weight in his P.P. As for the B.C. he said they are impossible to know due to the design. Send them an Email for costs.: zedfield@iinet.net.au

Cheers,

Jeff Gray


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Mcleish
.275 member


Reged: 30/06/10
Posts: 64
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #163946 - 13/07/10 11:38 AM

Cheers lads

Thanks for the info, i will send Geoff and publish anything worth noting. I am interested at what the hydros can achieve with confidence out between 270 and 300 yards in my 35 Whelen


Thanks


McLeish

--------------------
Fallow might be small, but they're tasty


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: Mcleish]
      #163948 - 13/07/10 12:07 PM

There will be a rainbow trajectory to 300yds from your Whelen IMO.

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Cinghiale
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Reged: 15/04/08
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Loc: Northern Territory
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: gryphon]
      #163969 - 13/07/10 05:50 PM

Cheers for the heads up Griff, that's awesome performance.

did you do the paint job on the 358's stock? If so can you give me a few pointers as it looks great.

Regards,

MOG


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: Cinghiale]
      #163970 - 13/07/10 06:46 PM

Cinghiale sorry to say that its a Bell + Carlson commercial synthetic,full length ally block etc and finished in their fern pattern. Here is another view as it stands against a red hot cherry rub.The rifle has only been built recently and I`m yet to tape up the scope and other bits.




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Mcleish
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Reged: 30/06/10
Posts: 64
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: gryphon]
      #163972 - 13/07/10 07:01 PM

Quote:

There will be a rainbow trajectory to 300yds from your Whelen IMO.




That will depend on the Ballistic coefficient (for this example I have used .450) I note the their protected poin BC is .400 so I have assumed 0.450 for these puppies. I may well be a long way out will look forward to an aproximation from Woodlieigh. Al other variables are well within the parameters.

Source Hornady ballistics calculator - www.hornady.com


Input Variables Firearm type Rifle Sight Height 1.5
Bullet Weight (grains) 225 Ballistic Coefficient .450
Muzzle Velocity (fps) 2620 Temperature 59
Barometric Pressure (hg) 29.53 Relative Humidity 78%
Zero Range (yards) 220 Wind Speed (mph) 0



Ballistics Table in Yards 35 Whelen - Hydrostatic 225 gr., .450 B.C.

Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2620 2522 2426 2241 2064 1895 1736
Energy (ft.-lb.) 3429 3178 2941 2509 2128 1795 1505
Trajectory (220 yd. zero) -1.5 1.3 2.8 1.1 -7.5 -24.2 -50.7
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -2.5 -2.6 -0.5 2.4 5.8 9.7

(I sorry that the numbers will not post properly, even if a spread them out manually)


So to set your rifle up for this trajectory would require a 2.8 inch high over zero at 100 yeards (91 meters. This would virtuall mean that the highpoint of the trajectory was 3 inches.
A 7.5 inch holdover is more than acceptable at 300 yards IMO on something like a red deer or more so on a sambar stag. That would mean placing the parallel crossair on the wither. The question I have is if these projectiles will work with a terminal velocity of 2064 fps?


Any feedback welcome as I am only new at this with large game, however I have been doing this sort of stuff with varmints for years along with my Sako 222, V-max projectiles and the odd red fox. Then someone evented the .204 Ruger!~


Cheers



McLeish

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
Fallow might be small, but they're tasty


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Mcleish
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Reged: 30/06/10
Posts: 64
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: Mcleish]
      #163974 - 13/07/10 07:16 PM



Hi

Sorry for another question (brian overloaded), however has anybody had any experience with the seating depth of a hydrostatic projectile?


Cheers


McLeish

--------------------
Fallow might be small, but they're tasty


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Mcleish
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Reged: 30/06/10
Posts: 64
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: Mcleish]
      #163975 - 13/07/10 07:18 PM



Also Grypho, nice firearm!

Is that a kahles or swarvoski on top of it (3-10 X 50 my guess)


Cheers


McLeish

--------------------
Fallow might be small, but they're tasty


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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: Mcleish]
      #163983 - 13/07/10 08:51 PM

I have to say I am dubious about the claims of these bullets maker (in regard to size of wound channel). On one hand you are saying that there was minimal tissue damage but Frank and Co told me themselves that the idea was to create more tissue damage - setting them aside from other solid projectiles. Extra tissue damage is really the only way they can improve on other designs in this regard (ie killing better).

They make other claims too - like less deflection on bone and straighter wound channel and I wont comment on that but the whole size of the wound channel I think is pretty dubious.

I dont/cant see what advantages they will have over modern conventional softpoints - if anything they will have disadvantages.

--------------------
www.huntaust.com.au


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kamilaroi
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #163984 - 13/07/10 09:23 PM

Might I posit that the face screens shown are FAR BETTER camo than taping barrels etc but a piece of hessian bag and gloves (as shown) might help the purpose as well?

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FATBOY404
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: kamilaroi]
      #163986 - 13/07/10 10:06 PM

Matt.

I have used them a bit now and like them.

I dont see any advantage of the Hydro's over a modern conventional soft point if you want an expanding projectile. I do believe they have an advantage over the old round nose solid as from my own experience they create more tissue damage.


I have seen the extra damage on Cape Buff and on smaller animals with the 404,9.3 and 338.

Anyway it is good to disagree as it leads to debate.

Cheers Neale.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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DarylS
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: FATBOY404]
      #163994 - 14/07/10 12:11 AM

Good thread, Gryphon - jungle is jungle, no matter where in the world it's located.

The Hydro with a BC of .450 - I'm having difficulty with that high a number. I would believe something in the range of .275 to about .330, though.

Not only the nose shape, but the bands on the shank are brutal to the BC. The bands create a lot of additonal drag - called parasitic drag due to the eddies in air movement they cause by each and every groove, nothing smooth as in laminar flow. Note the difference between the Barnes "X" bullets of old, the smooth ones, and the TSX now used. There is a huge drop in BC due to the bands, even though the TSX of the same weight is even longer.

Still, in a .35 Whelen, a good shot will not have difficulty with shots to 300 yards - even 350 yards. One merely needs to practise at those ranges. Shooting at 50 or 100 yards and reading drop tables doesn't cut it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: DarylS]
      #164027 - 14/07/10 07:32 AM


Yesterday I spent some time on the ph talking to John Marozzi the co inventor/designer of these bullets and straight from him I was told that Federal Cartridge Co in the US have been very impressed with the accuracy of them.

They did and are still doing extensive accuracy tests and were surprised by their results of the fantastic figures of .4 moa @ 200 yards..yes .2 @ 100 using them in .375 H+H calibre..well thats super impressive,yeah factory indoor conditions and all that with super rifles under factory conditions makes it easier but its more about the ability of the pill to remain true and they are indeed doing that.
Actually thats amazing accuracy and anyone that wants to dispute it can take it up with FCC
The mail is also that the 22 fast steppers are being tested as well and if they are released i will run them through my 220 Swift.
John is reloading another batch of 358 for me to use (hopefully)

The bottom line is that all I can say is that from my exp and yes i acknowledge its limited but I have been on the spot with real life kills that these Hydro`s have that "something" and they have the advantage of a hard solid working as a soft.

Matty how about a side wager that your "I dont/cant see what advantages they will have over modern conventional soft points - if anything they will have disadvantages. "

is upta haha.


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gryphon
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: gryphon]
      #164028 - 14/07/10 07:34 AM

oops sorry McLeish I just read your q`s its a Zeiss 3.5-10 x 42

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Mcleish
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Reged: 30/06/10
Posts: 64
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: DarylS]
      #164035 - 14/07/10 09:50 AM

Quote:

The Hydro with a BC of .450 - I'm having difficulty with that high a number. I would believe something in the range of .275 to about .330, though.

Not only the nose shape, but the bands on the shank are brutal to the BC. The bands create a lot of additonal drag - called parasitic drag due to the eddies in air movement they cause by each and every groove, nothing smooth as in laminar flow. Note the difference between the Barnes "X" bullets of old, the smooth ones, and the TSX now used. There is a huge drop in BC due to the bands, even though the TSX of the same weight is even longer.

Still, in a .35 Whelen, a good shot will not have difficulty with shots to 300 yards - even 350 yards. One merely needs to practise at those ranges. Shooting at 50 or 100 yards and reading drop tables doesn't cut it.




Hi Daryl appreciate your comments on the factors affecting the BC, as I stated in my earlier post I had no idea what the BC was for these projectiles, either do Woodleigh. I do however note that their Protected Point Projectiles have the highest BC per weight in the 35 cal. I know BC isn't everything, however given that a two projectiles have the same killing performance, I would always pick the one that will perform better in terms of ballistics.


I will revise the numbers for the above info. Daryl the purpose of this is not to presume that the drop tables are exact, in fact they are a very crude instrument. They are however the best one available to me to look at the shape of a trajectory and look at what is viable in terms of risk in making a shot. Gryphon did speak earlier of a "rainbow trajectory out of the Whelen", the numbers demonstrate otherwise. No one wants to be a cowboy with 20-30 inch holdovers, these are just not practical IMO, and not fair to the game you are chasing. Knowing the limitations of one’s firearm is important.

Ballistics Table in Yards 35 Whelen - Hydrostatic 225 gr., .275 B.C. www.hornady.com

Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2620 2461 2308 2017 1750 1511 1307
Energy (ft.-lb.) 3429 3026 2660 2033 1530 1140 853
Trajectory (210 yd. zero) -1.5 1.4 2.9 0.7 -10.2 -32.4 -70.1
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -2.7 -2.7 -0.3 3.2 7.7 13.4


Ballistics Table in Yards 35 Whelen - Hydrostatic 225 gr., .330 B.C. www.hornady.com

Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2620 2487 2358 2112 1880 1667 1474
Energy (ft.-lb.) 3429 3090 2778 2227 1766 1388 1085
Trajectory (217 yd. zero) -1.5 1.4 2.9 1.0 -8.6 -28.2 -60.4
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -2.7 -2.8 -0.5 2.8 6.7 11.5



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
Fallow might be small, but they're tasty


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: Mcleish]
      #164038 - 14/07/10 10:30 AM

The rainbow was mentioned as the 35 whelen`s are not really noted "for a flat shooting out there long range stuff cal",they built their rep on the hard hitting in closer type stuff.. and compared to my 35 cal IE the 358 NM it is indeed a rainbow to me.It`s basically that a comparo with the lot flatter stuff that crudely suggests rainbow.
I have rolled a lot of stuff with my 7mm mag and 300 wm,no rainbows in either of them.

In saying that I would be extremely happy to carry a 35W in my claw whilst sambar hunting.


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Mcleish
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Reged: 30/06/10
Posts: 64
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW
Re: Woodleigh Hydro result [Re: gryphon]
      #164044 - 14/07/10 12:29 PM

Hi Gryphon - no offence taken in regards to my selection of calibre and your "rainbow" comments. It has only ever been loaded with 250 grain Hornady Interlock Round Nose projectiles, by me and my uncle before me (he was Sambar obsessed). I am now looking to step up into either a Woodleigh Protected point or one of these Hydrostatic projectiles. The reason I joined the site was to bounce info & ideas of people in the know. A .270 is considered a large calibre in the tablelands so I don't really have anyone with the experience to discuss this stuff with.



Cheers



McLeish

--------------------
Fallow might be small, but they're tasty


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