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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive

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Old_Glass
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Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 113
Loc: BC, Canada
Lee Enfield MkI Carbine - To "Lee Speed" or not?
      #157210 - 23/03/10 07:56 PM

Picked up this MkI Lee Enfield Carbine the other day, when out looking for something to satsify my Lee Speed urge. I was thinking it might be a good candidate for a "Lee Speed replica", but the more I look at it, the more questions I have. Now I'm wondering if it was an early "poor man's sporter" as the British gunmakers used to offer. Any comments would be welcome.

Odd points:

1. Finish is in very good condition, and is the grey/blue used by Enfield.
2. There is no sign of wear around the muzzle where the forend cap would have been if this rifle was converted from a carbine after it was sold (unless it was refinished by a gunsmith able to duplicate the finish used at Enfield)
3. The forend or forestock is from a Lee Enfield MkI rifle as it has the cutout for the long range dial sight, however it has been on the rifle for a very long time to judge by wear and the dirt and congealed linseed oil etc. in the barrel channel.
4. The butt has the two Broad Arrows touching point to point War Department sale mark, although like the Enfield roundel, this is faint due to the stock being heavily sanded a long time ago. The marks are now very slightly proud of the wood, not something I have seen before and something that takes a lot of time to occur I assume? The same sale marks are on the barrel ring and Nock's Form.
5. The serial number is in the 3000 range, original on bolt, barrel and barrel ring.
6. The bore is VG at least and if was not slightly ringed about 3/4" in from the muzzle would be almost excellent. I conclude the rifle has had little actual use since it was sold by the WD or since it was converted/sporterized. There is practically no bolt head over-turn and it is a No1 bolthead I believe.
7. The forend handguard spring slots have been very carefully filled with what looks like bamboo strips. This was done a long time ago judging by the dirt/wear/finish.


I don't want to mess with a restorable arm, or one that is an "original" conversion, which is why I ask what others who know these arms better think.

The defects that point toward "Lee Speeding" are:

1. Three old holes in the left side of the receiver
2. Bolt cover lugs ground off the bolt recoil lug (this was definitely not done by a gunmaker and there is what looks like cold bluing on the top of the recoil lug.)
3. Ringed bore at muzzle. (Could be counter-bored)
4. Missing 5 round magazine.
5. Missing bolt cover
6. Incorrect forend/forestock
7. Missing magazine cutoff (screw is present)
8. Foresight fined-down with a file
9. Face of cocking piece ground concave causing heavy trigger pull



More photos: http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2010-3/1354579/2128106

Edited by Old_Glass (24/03/10 05:25 PM)


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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: Lee Enfield MkI Carbine - To "Lee Speed" or not? [Re: Old_Glass]
      #157216 - 23/03/10 09:29 PM

Thats a beauty !
A worry what to do now as a Carbine is also nice to have , a lot of guys would rebuild the Carbine !
Which is rarer than the BSA Sporters , why did ever one back then drill our nice guns up ?

Thanks for the photos !


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darwinmauser
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Reged: 07/05/07
Posts: 217
Loc: Darwin NT
Re: Lee Enfield MkI Carbine - To "Lee Speed" or not? [Re: Sarg]
      #157281 - 24/03/10 10:40 AM



Well Mr Old Glass you have the makings of a very nice Lee Speed type rifle . Because of the non original parts and holes drilled in the action it is not in any way a collectible ( no sacrilege ). The holes could be welded up and with some new wood it would look quite presentable ,the hardest part is finding some suitable sights ,good luck with it and we would like to be kept up to date with it's refurbishment .


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Old_Glass
.300 member


Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 113
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Lee Enfield MkI Carbine - To "Lee Speed" or not? [Re: darwinmauser]
      #157311 - 24/03/10 05:39 PM

Thank you for the reponses. If it wasn't for the missing bolt cover lugs, I would have to come down on the side of leaving it alone or restoring to military specs as far as possible. I know the lugs could be restored, but finding a welder skilled enough, and what that much heat might do to the metallurgy of the bolt, make me think that would be a bit too much of a stretch.

Well, it's not like I'm going to start tomorrow, so we'll see what more information turns up. The counterbore of the muzzle comes first I guess. That and finding a correct magazine cutoff. It does look quite a lot like a "No.4 Carbine" as described here in your thread Sarg: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=150485&an=0&page=0#Post150485 (The catalogue page seems to be gone now?)



I do wonder if a UK gunmaker would have sold it with a cut down stock from a "Long Lee" (having the relief for the long range peep sight)? The way the front swivel hole is off-center looks like a home job as well. Almost makes me wonder if a previous owner of long ago might have removed the carbine forend complete and replaced it with this one rather than cut the original down. Not likely to be found now, though I will make enquiries.

Edited by Old_Glass (24/03/10 05:43 PM)


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darwinmauser
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Reged: 07/05/07
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Loc: Darwin NT
Re: Lee Enfield MkI Carbine - To "Lee Speed" or not? [Re: Old_Glass]
      #157351 - 24/03/10 11:10 PM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Long-Lee-Enfield-C...=item3cab64d8dc

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Story
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Reged: 15/10/08
Posts: 262
Loc: SE PA, USA
Re: Lee Enfield MkI Carbine - To "Lee Speed" or not? [Re: darwinmauser]
      #157411 - 25/03/10 12:30 PM

Old Glass,
One trick is to find a sporterized No 4 foreend - the wood on either side of the receiver is high enough to cover the cut-off slot (and you can inlet for one, if you wish). These can be had for under $15 US on ebay or the like, makes for a decent practice piece.

For Express Sights, check out
MSR219 MK10 MSR 1 Fixed 2 Folding Leaf Express Sight (round bottom)
MSR221 MK10 MSR 3 Folding Leaf Express Sight (round bottom)
http://www.sarcoinc.com/mauser.html

These are $35-40 each, IIRC - there's a deal if you buy three at once. The bottom contours are apparently for Mauser barrels, so you'll need someone to relief cut it for your Enfield's.


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Old_Glass
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Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 113
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Lee Enfield MkI Carbine - To "Lee Speed" or not? [Re: Story]
      #157421 - 25/03/10 02:48 PM

Thanks for the suggestions darwinmauser and Story. I'm going to start collecting parts and pieces but will resist the temptation to start filing just yet. The cocking piece can be welded and reshaped where it was ground I think, so probably I won't buy another one.

I'm thinking that thin carbine barrel could do with a nice full length rib to add some strength, perhaps leaving the rear sight as it is and just ribbing above and below it. I'm not a big fan of open sights vs. peep sights, and the holes suggest a vintage scope of some kind (my particular interest!), but I'd need to find out what kind of base was on there first.

I also prefer the ten round magazine, although they seem to be very rare on Lee Speed type rifles; I'm not sure why. It would be nice to get one with the proper chain etc. though.

I've got plenty of No4 stocks, but I like cutoffs too! I know they're impracticable, but they're part of the rifle I feel.

Edited by Old_Glass (25/03/10 02:48 PM)


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darwinmauser
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Reged: 07/05/07
Posts: 217
Loc: Darwin NT
Re: Lee Enfield MkI Carbine - To "Lee Speed" or not? [Re: Old_Glass]
      #157426 - 25/03/10 04:31 PM



The inletting between your LEC and a #4 are significantly different ,it's not going to fit very well.The magazine....From memory they were 6 round capacity with a straight bottom angled for the rimmed cartridge of course. Any LE 10 round mag should fit although you might have to do a bit of minor fitting.


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Old_Glass
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Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 113
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Lee Enfield MkI Carbine - To "Lee Speed" or not? [Re: darwinmauser]
      #160474 - 15/05/10 04:55 AM

Found the right cutoff for this carbine, but can see now why it was removed. The ten round SMLE magazine will not fit in place with the cutoff in the closed position. So I still need to find a suitable magazine, either an early ten rounder or the carbine type, whether military or sporter.

Have some interesting old bits of sights etc. to trade if anyone has one?


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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: Lee Enfield MkI Carbine - To "Lee Speed" or not? [Re: Old_Glass]
      #160479 - 15/05/10 07:41 AM

I fitted a later SMLE cut off , that way you can use any mag or just file the piece out like on the SMLE cut off , I have 4 old "Lee Speeds" now Im fixing up , one a LSA & 2 of them engraved & 3 BSA actions too , getting out of hand really !

Im sure a older mag could be found , but cost more & really dont work as well with Spitzers or lighter bullets .


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Old_Glass
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Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 113
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: Lee Enfield MkI Carbine - To "Lee Speed" or not? [Re: Sarg]
      #160533 - 16/05/10 05:11 AM

That might be a good idea Sarg. You're spoiled for choices down there obviously!

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