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500Bo
.224 member


Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 13
Loc: Virginia
Weight vs. Recoil
      #159386 - 24/04/10 04:39 AM

I recently read Boddington's "Safari Rifles II" and he mentioned something that made me pause and then do a little research. He mentioned the Merkel double being a little on the light side (10.14 lbs.) and that it had a little more "drop" than he cared for and the net result was that it had more recoil than it had to.

I checked the weight of other makers and found the following;

Heym 10.5 lbs.
Krieghoff 10.5 lbs.
Blaser 11.68 lbs.
Verney-Carron - gave a range up to 16 lbs. for the .600

So granted, Merkel is a little lighter than the others, but is Boddington saying that light weight is the reason or the "drop" or possibly a combination of the two?

--------------------


"They look at you like you owe them money" Robert Ruark

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Dutch44
.275 member


Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri
Re: Weight vs. Recoil [Re: 500Bo]
      #159389 - 24/04/10 05:36 AM

I would venture that a proper fit for Boddington did not include the drop he encountered on the Merkel. Proper fit, with proper weight for caliber would produce the least noticeable recoil in my opinion.


Dutch

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Weight vs. Recoil [Re: 500Bo]
      #159390 - 24/04/10 05:53 AM

Expressed in physics terms, recoil can be calculated from the weight of the rifle, the weight of the bullet and the weight of the powder charge, plus the velocity of the bullet. These factors allow the rearward velocity of the rifle to be calculated in feet per second. From this velocity, plus the weight of the rifle, recoil energy in foot/pounds can be determined.

Felt recoil is a function of actual recoil plus the factor of stock design. The ideal stock design for minimizing felt recoil would be one in which the center of the bore extended was centered on the buttplate of the rifle, which is roughly the case with M-16 type weapons. Any deviation from this causes the force of the recoil to be diverted upward, so that to the shooter's cheek is punished, in addition to his shoulder.

The problem is that rifles designed solely with recoil minimization in mind do not point well and require a sight line well above the bore(again like the M-16), so a compromise must be made. The ideal stock is one which positions the rifle so that you are looking straight down the sights when you shoulder it rapidly. In other words, the perfect rifle stock is like a shotgun stock. When you achieve this ideal shape, then is the time to start altering the felt recoil by adding weight to the stock or subtracting weight from the bullet and/or the powder charge.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Weight vs. Recoil [Re: xausa]
      #159428 - 24/04/10 08:51 PM

My Merkel .500NE does not have excessive drop. If a rifle has too little drop you have to squeeze your cheek against the stock, and you are likely to get hit in the cheek bone.

In my experience the Merkel has typical recoil for caliber. Yes it's a bit light at just over 10 lbs. But for a day's hunt a gun will hurt more in the carry than in the kick. I like the weight of my Merkel just fine.

Boddington does not speak for every man.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Weight vs. Recoil [Re: CptCurl]
      #159430 - 24/04/10 10:37 PM

One nice thing about a stock with too little drop: there's always a solution for it. A stock with too much drop is a much more difficult problem.

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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Weight vs. Recoil [Re: xausa]
      #159436 - 25/04/10 12:49 AM


The recoil characteristic, especially in regard to barrel rise (and cheek bone slapping), is not only dependent on stock design but also on the mounting technique. My .470 has relatively litte drop as it is set up for a scope - that is beneficial in general as my my barrel only rises to about 10 0'clock when I shoot it standing. However, I tend to mount my guns very high in the shoulder. I had my gun smith shoot my gun for a couple of rounds during load testing where he assisted me: He mounted the gun very low in the shoulder and was downright killed by the recoil. With his mounting style, the barrel rose over his head, gun slapping his face and the upper part of the butt biting his shoulder so much that he was seriously hurting afterwards. Mounting the gun too low in the shoulder makes for a bad angle of attack, so to speak, and leads to excessive barrel rise, just like a gun with too much drop.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Re: Weight vs. Recoil [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #159439 - 25/04/10 01:01 AM

I agree that mounting and stance are very important, not just in terms of recoil management, but also for good consistent accuracy.

A person really is not able to judge the fit of a gun if he or she does not have good mounting and stance.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500Bo
.224 member


Reged: 07/03/10
Posts: 13
Loc: Virginia
Re: Weight vs. Recoil [Re: CptCurl]
      #159440 - 25/04/10 03:04 AM

I'm really glad I joined NitroExpress. You guys are really giving me some great feedback. I've recently been tempted to purchase what I consider excellent deals; a Merkel .500 w/left hand stock for $10K (reason for the Boddington comment) and a .470 Heym "Safari" w/cast neutral stock for $12K (The "Safari" is currently retailing for $22K). My final option is ordering a V-C .500 w/cast neutral stock, but custom made to my physical dimensions. My V-C dealer is returning from Africa next week and has all my information. I think that's the way I'm leaning, although that Heym is weighing heavy on my mind.

--------------------


"They look at you like you owe them money" Robert Ruark

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Weight vs. Recoil [Re: 500Bo]
      #159442 - 25/04/10 04:31 AM

Well, they all will kick more than your old .30-30!

If you want to try a Merkel you can send me an email. We can pick a time for you to drive a couple hours west on I-64 and take your punishment.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Weight vs. Recoil [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #159445 - 25/04/10 04:44 AM

Quote:


Mounting the gun too low in the shoulder makes for a bad angle of attack, so to speak, and leads to excessive barrel rise, just like a gun with too much drop.



Stock sliding down the chest muscle or into the armpit will lead to a bloody nose & tear the muscle as well. I'm surprised he didn't know better.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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herrdoktor
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Reged: 03/08/07
Posts: 84
Loc: Spain
Re: Weight vs. Recoil [Re: DarylS]
      #159448 - 25/04/10 05:20 AM

Well, I think there are a couple of things more than weight and cast regarding perceived (suffered) recoil. All the other things equal, a wide recoil pad spreads the recoil over a bigger surface and the perceived recoil is less. And a reasonably soft recoil pad makes wonders. At this moment I have several rifles in my lock; one is a very light (7 pounds with scope) bolt action .375, with a custom glass stock (fairly straight, very little drop) and a Decelerator pad; I can shoot a full box of cartridges without problem. My 450 BPE is also very light (6,5 pounds) and lots of drop. With a soft and not very wide recoil pad is not at all unpleasant to shoot (400 grains of lead bullet at 2.000 fps).
And the other side of the coin. Years ago I had a Thomson Center Contender single shot in 45/70; with three or four shots, my shoulder wasso painful I could barely touch it. The problem vanished when I changed the hard and bad shaped recoil pad for a softer one.

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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Weight vs. Recoil [Re: herrdoktor]
      #159460 - 25/04/10 01:31 PM

Daryl,

my gunsmith shoots and services mostly the small calibers that the locals here use on roebuck. His biggest gun is a 6.5 mm, from what I remember. As a result, he is was overly afraid of the .470 and actually showed up with a lead-shot padded vest (which is not even necessary with my gun as it has a very effective recoil pad). So, being inexperienced with big calibers, he mounted the gun low into the padding of his vest because he thought he needed to. Of course it had the effect that you described. As I was standing behind him while he shooting I didn't catch it early enough to correct him. He apparently also flinched violently as he ended up hitting the ceiling as well. Unfortunately for him, we were also testing loads that are a bit on the stiff side for a .470 (500 grain GSC FN solids at almost 2300 f/s).

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