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lancaster
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No Lee Speed!
      #158961 - 15/04/10 12:52 AM

It was very boring last time because my mosin project don’t realy move and to end it and avoid serious mental problems only chance was to buy a new rifle.
Bolt actions for obsolete medium bore cartridges allways catch my eye’s and a lee speed in 375 NE 2,5” flanged was on the list now. But before seeing such a beast I stumble about a Mannlicher M 92:


was coming with a side mount and old german Ajack 4x90 scope and original sling



good company, M 88 9x57 Mauser, M 92 375 NE Flanged, M 96 9,3x57 Mauser, M98 10,75x57 , M98 11,2x60 Schüler






of course, 3 screw’s from the sidemount have to leave the house

the Mannlicher M92 is a modification from the german Commision rifle M 88. the M 88 bolt fits into the Mannlicher without problems. Maybe I invent the 375 NE Flanged Rimless some day. The Mannlicher bolt has a modification on the left side of the bolt head that makes impossible to put it into the M 88.




the M 92 with the M 88 bolt












The british were clever enough to understand that a mannlicher was not such a wimp like a lee speed. Proof it with 40 grains cordite and a 320 grains bullet. Common load for 375 NE flanged was 40 grains cordite and 270 grains bullet. Anyone ever seeing this “proof load”?


Inscription on the barrel is”Wilkinsons 27. Pall Mall London S.W.”
Maker or Retailer?











The dealer I bought it import the rifle from the united states years ago as you see it.
It is the first M 92 in 375NE I ever found but some weeks ago there was a similar sporter on accuratereloding originaly sold by Holland&Holland




http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/2171078621

what do you think? I see that the forearm of my rifle is a little bit differentt but are both rifle’s in fact this webley model?



the cartridge seems to be a Holland&Holland development from 1899 for ligth double rifles with the small frame for the 303 cartridge.



before the great war made from eley


and of course also from kynoch/ ICI


british made ammunition was also available in germany but I am dare to say it was never sold in bulk pack’s


here Burgsmüller 1926


the cartridge and chamber dimensions, 2000 bar is for the old copper crusher method




“The Clip Club”, ancient noble society


6,5x53R Mannlicher with original box, dutch military load from 1926
375 NE flanged on Mannlicher clip
9x57 Mauser on M 88 clip
9,3x53R on Mosin clip
9,3x57 on swedish Mauser clip( Husqvarna M 46 need this)
10,75x57 on Mauser 98 clip



I have got 30 bertram 405 Win cases with the rifle, it was necessary to reduce the rim diameter .04” to get 5 cases into the clip. Also some 220 grains Hornady roundnose bullets which the owner have shot with 55 grains Vithavouri N140 before.


In the end I will never again have a reason to buy a lee speed now if not a 8x50 R coming away some day.

Edited by CptCurl (16/04/10 08:46 PM)


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kamilaroi
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: lancaster]
      #158999 - 15/04/10 08:16 AM

Wilkinson's were retailers to the forces (swords, razors etc)

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450_366
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: kamilaroi]
      #159013 - 15/04/10 03:54 PM

Nice collection of "odd" rifles/calibers.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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lancaster
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: 450_366]
      #159015 - 15/04/10 05:29 PM

other collectors are looking for rifle's, I collect odd chamber's. will get also the die set this week.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Paul
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: lancaster]
      #159019 - 15/04/10 06:55 PM

Quote:

The british were clever enough to understand that a mannlicher was not such a wimp like a lee speed. ...

In the end I will never again have a reason to buy a lee speed now if not a 8x50 R coming away some day.




Nice pictures, Lancaster.

While I have owned Mausers and an MS, I have never wished to have a Lee Enfield, either. But perhaps we should give it it's due. It may not be a front-locker able to withhold high pressures day after day but the Enfield was one of the most successful combat rifles. Its large capacity, fast recycling, handy safety and cock-on-closing bolt were probably more useful in battle than the flatter trajectories possible from the Continental designs. The .303 bullet was considered more likely to stop an adrenalin-stoked human than the Mannlicher's 6.5mm slug, too.

A morbid defence, yes, but that's what all of these rifle were designed for.

- Paul


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lancaster
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: Paul]
      #159024 - 16/04/10 12:36 AM

it wasn't my intention to bash the lee speed, nice sporter btw. my original plan was buy one of this but fate make a change. and because I concentrate myself on obsolete medium bore rifles now will probable never again need a lee bolt action.

"While I have owned Mausers and an MS, I have never wished to have a Lee Enfield, either. But perhaps we should give it it's due. It may not be a front-locker able to withhold high pressures day after day but the Enfield was one of the most successful combat rifles. Its large capacity, fast recycling, handy safety and cock-on-closing bolt were probably more useful in battle than the flatter trajectories possible from the Continental designs. The .303 bullet was considered more likely to stop an adrenalin-stoked human than the Mannlicher's 6.5mm slug, too.

A morbid defence, yes, but that's what all of these rifle were designed for.

- Paul "

from the point of view of a .375 bore I would say that a 303 is also a small bore. I hear it allways that the lee enfield is the best military bolt action rifle. it served the british well to lost the biggest empire in two world wars. in the year of the lord 1913 the british army was trying to get 7mm mauser copy and after the war they had never again the money for a new bolt action.
and every independent nation who pay with good money for bolt actions rifle's buy a mauser.
thats a fact.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Paul
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: lancaster]
      #159027 - 16/04/10 01:25 AM

I love Mausers as sporting rifles, Lancaster, and they were good and reliable in muddy conditions.

The Brits were in love with idea of changing to a flat shooting magnum with the P13 but it didn't happen and history has shown rapidity of fire is more important than long range potential for soldiers other than snipers - the Kalashnikov and Armalite are both short-range rifles despite the differences in their ammo.

The Mauser success may have much to do with their willingness to sell them to anyone. The Brits may not have seen the point of selling their rifles to potential enemies - they spent a lot of time trying to stop people in their colonies being able to use even their obsolete rifles.

I'm amused to hear you thing the 'Smelly' lost the Poms the empire - never mind who won the wars. The awakening of nationalism in the colonies may have had something to do with losing the empire and, ironically, it was former British colonies armed with more than a couple of Enfields who pretty much won the war for them.

Cheers


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lancaster
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: Paul]
      #159031 - 16/04/10 03:57 AM

"The Brits were in love with idea of changing to a flat shooting magnum with the P13"

I think they were in love with the idea of becoming a M 98 copy

"The Mauser success may have much to do with their willingness to sell them to anyone. The Brits may not have seen the point of selling their rifles to potential enemies - they spent a lot of time trying to stop people in their colonies being able to use even their obsolete rifles."

ok, if you dont like my argument that nobody was paying good money for a lee enfield ever how about the question who copy what after the mauser 98 hit the market.anyone ever copy the lee enfield?

"I'm amused to hear you thing the 'Smelly' lost the Poms the empire - never mind who won the wars. The awakening of nationalism in the colonies may have had something to do with losing the empire and, ironically, it was former British colonies armed with more than a couple of Enfields who pretty much won the war for them."

compare great britain of 1914 with the same country in 1970, is this how a winner looks?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbDqXr6LbXo&feature=related

the british sporting gun industry of 1970 was dead. it was the new interest from the american market that bringing the british rifle back to live. but iirc this start with the end of WW 1, the sale of double rifles never reach the pre war years again. and with the end of WW 2 britain lost all of his glory step by step

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (16/04/10 04:00 AM)


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: lancaster]
      #159034 - 16/04/10 06:02 AM

Hang on Lancaster !!, I saw the Clash once, the Stranglers as well and the Ramones twice but I'm not sniffing glue. We can all be kids once and whatever you think Holland, Purdey and Westley are still up there , yours nostalgically, Mike

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Empire375
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #159035 - 16/04/10 06:05 AM

I think the 70's for Britain was not all that bad. I agree Mike the Clash etc etc were good. I think it the late 80's and onwards that finished Britain.
Have a look at it now.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: Empire375]
      #159038 - 16/04/10 07:39 AM

1997 onwards were the worst, lets see what happens now !! best, Mike

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Rule303
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #159043 - 16/04/10 08:55 AM

Lets look at horses for courses.

The SMLE did not loose the Poms their Empire, changing times and political outlooks/influences did that. It did however help the POMs, Aussies, Kiwi's Canadians, Indians win many battles and eventually wars.

The SMLE is a battle rifle pure and simple and as proven a better battle rifle than the K98. The SMLE is not a good sporting rifle action.

The K98 is a good battle rifle and a very good sporting rifle. Straight economics and practical thinking would tell me what action is going to sell well to the general populace. As said by Paul the Poms actively tried to stop the widespread use of the SMLE. Maybe they recognised what a good battle rifle it was and did not want it used against them.

IMHO the Poms should of sporterized the P14/P17 action. I love the way the bolt lugs are cut helically so they are camming in all the way in and out.

Cheers
Greg


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lancaster
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: Rule303]
      #159066 - 16/04/10 05:25 PM

Ok, I think we better stop it before you tarring and feathering me. thank you very much for being such gentleman's!
You don’t bring me to proselytizing anyway.its a interesting topic of itself how the british sporting gun industry was coming in decline and how come back to life but only because of the american market. take it away and they will be die like before.
what I saying,its not how a victory look.


Back to my question, did a little work with photoshop



webley catalog

my rifle

the Holland&Holland rifle

it seems that the H&H rifle have the same forearm like in the webley catalog and the forearm of my rifle is noticable longer. barrel length is 65cm btw and the wood of my rifle is better.
is it made from Webley's, maybe other model or got a special order stoke?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (17/04/10 12:33 AM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: lancaster]
      #159071 - 16/04/10 08:51 PM

Very interesting subject.

I'm not ready to argue the merits of the SMLE versus M98 as a battle rifle, but I think I would side with the M98.

Note: Lancaster, I uploaded your photos to the NitroExpress server. There were three photos missing in your first post and one photo missing in your most recent post (all indicated by the red "x"). If you would like to email those photos to me I will insert them.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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lancaster
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: CptCurl]
      #159082 - 17/04/10 12:36 AM

thank you cptcurl, I allways try to crash the nitroexpress server and it seems to happen this time
was able to fix the last post alone and will look for the pic's missing in the first post.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Paul
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: CptCurl]
      #159084 - 17/04/10 12:58 AM

Sorry Lancaster if my comments offended you personally.

I fear I may have offended the Brits, too, in saying the colonials won the wars for them. (Never mind my calling them Poms, they're used to that.) What I meant was that their American 'cousins' massive forces and industrial capacity, and the soldiers and support from the far-flung dominions, were decisive factors on top of British guts and determination. I may have offended the Americans as well by lumping them in with the former colonies.

The Enfields the Americans used had more in common with Mausers than SMLEs but did share the safety and cock-on-closing, which makes extraction easier when a rifle gets hot. I believe it held 20% more cartridges than the Mauser, too.

The long stroke of the M17 might have been the antithesis of the SMLE's but it didn't hinder Sergeant York, it seems. But then I suppose our German members and those who sat through 'Inglourious Basterds' might say: Das ist nichts!

If I have erred here as well,
Ich bitte um Ihre Begnadigung

- Paul


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lancaster
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: Paul]
      #159093 - 17/04/10 04:10 AM

No, excuse me! I know that there are devoted friends of the lee enfield.I applaud the Mauser 98 maybe a little bit to much because its such a great action.
the last war had have country's who won, no doubt about the united staates! russia and japan also for some time, china won the most on the long run it seems. the true british colonys also win: canada, australia, new zealand, they becoming realy independent.
great britain, the world power No. 1 in 1914, like any european country lost the war.
please try to see it as a theory

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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fuhrmann
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: lancaster]
      #159095 - 17/04/10 05:39 AM

Instead of discussing which countries lost the war, maybe we should ask who lost in the following peace??

Fuhrmann


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lancaster
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: fuhrmann]
      #159107 - 17/04/10 02:02 PM

thats one of the pics missing now in my original post
1914 webley catalog, seems to be they had only one style than and interesting that the mannlicher M 92 sporter build from what was in fact a surplus action cost one pound more than a mauser sporter with a brand new action. the high pricing mannlicher schoenauer action, also new made again only one pound more than the M 92


for the british sportsmann the mannlicher M 92 must be something like a first love they never forgot. I have not seen a austrian or german made M 92 sporter till now. the only continental mention is from august von spiess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Von_Spiess in his time as the hunting master of the king of rumania. in 1930 he got two M 92 military rile's from a rumanian arsenal and send them to vienna, maybe to springers erben.
the rifles were sporterized to becoming present's of the king.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: lancaster]
      #159182 - 19/04/10 03:51 AM

Got the RCBS die set that belongs to the rifle yesterday


The 220 grains hornady is not a realy a replacement for the 270 grains roundnose but set into the groove also near maximum length





9x57 , 9,3x53R, 9,3x57, 9,5x56 MS, 375 NE Flanged, 10,75x57, 11,2x60 Schüler



homemade .375 bullet( 222 Rem brass with a 8mm lead bullet, old german mould for the 8,15x46R, loaded with 9mm Parabellum die)
.375 hornady 220 grains
6,5x53R
303 british
303/375 brass
.375 Handload bertram brass 405 win
.375 handload with the homemade bullet
.375 handload, brass is making from 9,3x74R
.375 brass made from Betram 405 win
. 405 win Bell( OWS Headstamp)

this pics show’s the rims of the different cases



the case in the middle is the 9,3x74R, I have turned the base down on the lathe to 11,60,mm diameter but the rim 1,40mm thick is allway's to thin compare with the 1,60mm necessary

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (25/04/10 11:00 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: lancaster]
      #165818 - 06/08/10 12:49 PM

I have got Kynamco 375 2 ½ NE Flanged and the box is marked 11/09/00. load it on the clip and it don’t fit into the Mannlicher. There is no doubt that the cartridge is 1-2mm to long to fit into the magazine.
I am very surprised that someone sometime’s change the OAL for the 375 flanged.
Measure the cartridge here with an OAL of 80,48mm / 3.168”. Can other member’s giving me the OAL from new and old Kynoch ammo in this caliber they have?
There is no problem to load the cartridge as a single shot but this is not the reason they invent repeating rifle’s.
It’s allways nice when you have also factory ammo for your obsolete rifle. And with a reloading press can change the length of Kynoch ammo till it work’s with clip.
But then I can also stay with homemade round’s.




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (07/08/10 09:41 PM)


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FrankS
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: lancaster]
      #165917 - 08/08/10 06:02 PM

Lancaster, thanks for sharing the pics of your rifles. Gems all of them. I have a 9.3x57 swedish mauser manufactured by huskquvarna on a FN 98 action. Soon as I can get to it its going to see some glass bedding and a lyman 57 steel receiver sight. I bought 500 privi partisan 286 grain round nosed bullets for it. That should last me awhile. By the way excellent photography as well. Thanks for sharing. Frank

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375BSA
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: lancaster]
      #171937 - 23/11/10 05:01 PM

Speaking of the 8 x 50R cartridge, I just finished reading Kalman Kittenberger's "Big Game Hunting and Collecting in East Africa, 1903-1926", and he keeps referring to his 8mm Mannlicher and how terrible the Austrian made ammunition was. The multiple stories of this rifle jamming on him while he was being charged are pretty hair raising. Would this be the same 8 x 50 R cartridge that the Lee Speed was chambered for?

--------------------
Working with jc5 on the Lee Speed research project. Very interested in contacting former BSA gunsmiths and other employees.
"Recoil is irrelevant when there's a tiger in your howdah!"


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kuduae
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: 375BSA]
      #171967 - 24/11/10 06:36 AM

All Austro-Hungarian pre-WW1 smokeless ammo was of infamous quality. Main reason: They had a government monopoly on powder! Only one government factory smokeless rifle powder was available, named "Pulver III" to the private ammo makers Roth, Hirtenberger, Sellier&Bellot and so on. This powder was fast and erratic burning, variing from lot to lot. Smuggling in German made powders and cartridges was a favourite pastime of sportsmen travelling to the vast and wild hunting grounds of the double monarchy. Bell also reported problems with signs of excessive pressure when using Hirtenberger ammo in his 6.5x54 M-Sch carbine.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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lancaster
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Re: No Lee Speed! [Re: kuduae]
      #171969 - 24/11/10 07:00 AM

interesting! yes the 8x50R mannlicher was chambered in the lee speed rifle. we have had this many times in the lee speed forum here. the cartridge was a replacement for the 303 british on the indian market because of the military use. the british never forget the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857. the 8x50R and the lee action are still in produktion in india today.
is it sure that he use a Mannlicher M 95? this rifle was available as a sporter before WW 1 but I would not expect to find it outside of the KuK empire. or was it a Mannlicher Schoenauer Rifle in 8x56 MS?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (24/11/10 07:05 AM)


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