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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive

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BSAJoe
.224 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 47
Loc: Texas
WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375
      #15850 - 16/06/04 05:10 AM

Greetings,
I am always open to buy BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters, in particular those in non-.303 caliber, but am interested in all. I am on the lookout for a good .375 Express model.
I would appreciate any leads. Referrals would be rewarded if I buy.
Thank you,
Joe M.
Houston, TX
miatajoe@sbcglobal.net

--------------------
"A man and a gun and a star and a beast are still ponderables in a world of imponderables." Ruark


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: BSAJoe]
      #15909 - 17/06/04 11:37 PM

Refer the 303's to me please especially if its a Rigby.
Regards Alan

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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BSAJoe
.224 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 47
Loc: Texas
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #15912 - 18/06/04 12:14 AM

If I would be so lucky!
You will probably come across one in Australia before I do here, but one never knows, I guess.
I will keep you in mind,
Joe
in Houston

--------------------
"A man and a gun and a star and a beast are still ponderables in a world of imponderables." Ruark


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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #15915 - 18/06/04 12:38 AM

Alan

Is that Rigby Lee-Speeds or 98 Mausers???


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: 470Rigby]
      #15943 - 18/06/04 10:17 PM

Lee Speed,
Rigby manufactured a lot of them on this rear locking action.
There was a movie made about a company in Africa building a bridge and being terrorized by 2 lions.
One of the rifles on that movie was a Rigby Lee Speed 303.
Cant remember the name of the film though.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #15948 - 19/06/04 12:53 AM

Alan

The film was "The Ghost and the Darkness" - a bastardised version of "The Man-eaters of Tsavo" by Lieu.-Col. J.H. Patterson an Engineer engaged on the construction of a bridge over the Tsavo River for the Uganda Railway in 1898. It was an account of his efforts to despatch man-eating Lions that were predating on the mainly Indian workforce and holding up construction.

Somehow the central character metamorphosed into an American (played by Michael Douglas) in the movie!!!

Patterson did indeed use a .303 but I don't recall from the book that it was a Rigby; he did acknowledge it's inadequacy for Lions, and it was referred to as a "popgun" by one of his collegues who refuse to go out after Lion when Patterson took his .303! Apart from "nailing" Lions, he also put it to good use using solids to drill holes in the steel rails of his trap to to allow attachment of the door with wire!

A couple of footnotes which other members might find of interest. A friend of mine Euan Farquhar, is a descendent of the Superindent of Police who assisted Patterson, and is a keen shooter and collector of Double Rifles. He is a active member of the Big Game Rifle Club in Melbourne. Euan has some interesting family accounts of the affair which differ somewhat from the book.

Patterson later took up guiding in Kenya and authored another book "In the Grip of the Niyika", which was an apologia for his role in the death of one of his clients on Safari. According to some, a love triangle was supposed to have developed and the client ended up in a bush grave! Soon after, Patterson disappeared, never to be heard of again!

The story was retold by Ernest Hemingway as "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" and later made into the movie as "The Macomber Affair' starring Gregory Peck.

BTW - Rigby's used a separate Serial number range for "single barrel" rifles, and the first Magazine rifle carried number 1000, and by 1989 the numbers had reached 6600. Paul Roberts, the former owner of Rigby's reports that the first 1000 or so we an assortment of reworked Lee Speeds, Manlichers and Mausers. He estimates that they made about 4500 true Rigby Magazine rifles made. Falling Block rifles appear in the same number range as their doubles.

My impression is that after they aquired the Mauser agency, they made few .303's on Lee Speeds, prefering to make them up on 98 Mausers with slant-box magazines. I know of one such Rigby (a .275) that lacked the safety firing pin which was introduced about the turn of the century; so Rigby's were "early adopters" of the 98 action.

Accordingly, Rigby Lee Speeds are IMO, a rarity. Certainly much more so than Rigby Mauser .303's. I for one have never seen one in the flesh.

But if anyone out there has a surplus of them, maybe I could help you cull them out too???


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: 470Rigby]
      #15979 - 19/06/04 10:45 PM

It was an asumption on my part that the rifle was a Rigby mainly because I have access to one which I have used on several occations.
I will post some pics when I get my digi camera back.
At the moment it is somewhere between Milano and Venice but will be home on Wednesday..
Thankyou for the info on the movie.
Regards Alan

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #16004 - 20/06/04 08:51 AM

Alan

I would be interested to know whether the Rigby is a "re-badged" BSA, or an ex-Miltary rifle re-worked by Rigby's?

The photos might shed some light on this?

Also, do you know whether it is Enfield of Metford rifled??? This might help date it, as would the Serial Number?

Also, does anybody know when BSA first started making Sporters?? I have always assumed that it was quite early on, since I have seen some with Metford rifling, which went out of vogue in Military rifles quite early.

In this context, if Marrakai's gorgeous Army & Navy is the rifle I think it is (full-length rib, mint, cased?), then as I recall, it was Metford rifled, which would make it very early?



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BSAJoe
.224 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 47
Loc: Texas
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16018 - 20/06/04 05:38 PM

470Rigby,
My 1916 BSA catalogue reprint (from Skennerton) shows that Metford rifling was still offered in their sporters even then.
Some tips to date BSA Lee Speeds is whether the marking on the receiver strap under the bolt handle is either "BSA Co." or "BSA&M". BSA sold its munitions division ("M" in "BSA&M) in 1896, so any BSA&M rifle is prior to 1897.
Another indicator is the presence of the sliding tang safety ala the earlier Ruger Model 77 rifles. The sliding tang safety on the BSA's carrys a patent date of 1897.
Another tip to date Lee Speeds is to look at the magazine and floorplate. The military model carbine around 1917 or so had a distinctive magazine with an odd attachment on the side up on top. There is a cutout in the side of the floorplate to accomodate that attachment. Having this arrangement would indicate a post-1898 rifle.
Other than that, dating them gets tough.
Concerning the Rigby Lee Speed, Rigby may have been the retailer of a Lee Speed, and would state so on the barrel rib or on top of the round barrel or dustcover as the A&N ones are. I have a Lamb & Adler marked Lee Speed on top of the barrel rib as they were the retailer of this rifle.
These are just my humble observations and I am sure there are more qualified people in this forum with more knowledge of these rifles than I.



--------------------
"A man and a gun and a star and a beast are still ponderables in a world of imponderables." Ruark


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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: BSAJoe]
      #16032 - 21/06/04 12:12 AM

BSA Joe,

Thanks for your backgrounding on BSA Lee Speed Sporters.

I would be interested to know whether you have come across early English retailed Lee Speeds that weren't made by BSA?

My curiosity about this was raised by mention of a Rigby Lee Speed by Alan. In some private correspondance with Paul Roberts when he owned Rigby's he mentioned that there were some "re-worked" Lee Speeds appearing in their books in the early 1000-2000 Serial number range. I have always assumed that they were ex-Military rifles.

Obviously there are heaps of sporterised ex-Military Lee Enfields around, but I have never seen a Lee Speed signed by an English maker that wasn't made by BSA.

Strange, since the English gunmakers were into "sporterising" military rifles very early. For example, Dan'l Fraser, for one was completly re-working 1896 Mausers and 1985 Mannlicher Steyrs before 1898 when he started using '98 Mausers!

Perhaps, with BSA doing the job, they didn't have to?

Anybody care to comment?




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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16036 - 21/06/04 02:49 AM

I have an action sitting on my desk at the moment and on the bolt dust cover it is marked:-

WW GREENER 68 HAYMARKET LONDON S.W.

Alan

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #16042 - 21/06/04 09:17 AM

Alan

Any way of determining whether the action signed by Greener started out as a BSA Sporter?


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BSAJoe
.224 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 47
Loc: Texas
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16096 - 22/06/04 10:59 AM

470Nitro wrote:
"Any way of determining whether the action signed by Greener started out as a BSA Sporter?"

Alan,
What does it say on the action strap just below the bolt handle when it is closed? I will assume it says "BSA Co"?

I have a couple of Army & Navy Lee Speeds that are so marked on the bolt cover, but have "BSA Co" in the spot under the bolt handle.
My other Lee Speed has the retailer inscribed on the barrel rib itself.


--------------------
"A man and a gun and a star and a beast are still ponderables in a world of imponderables." Ruark


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16137 - 23/06/04 11:25 PM

470Rigby:
The No.1 Pattern Lee Speed in my custody may well have been cased originally, but regrettably came to me without that luxury. It is enfield-rifled, fast-twist for the 215-grain bullet, which it shoots well.

Of the two other lower-grade Lee Speeds in my collection, one is marked BSA Co, the other BSA&M Co. I am on the trail of a BSA-sporter LLE in Darwin which has been re-barreled, but still has the checkered stock and BSA Gutta Percha butt-plate. A price has not yet been negotiated!

Regarding manufacturers, I had always assumed that BSA made them all, and nothing I have read in Skennerton's lit or elsewhere has provided evidence to the contrary. Happy to be educated, though!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: BSAJoe]
      #16163 - 24/06/04 10:47 PM

Greener bolt dust cover.
A crown
E.R
L.S.A.Co.L ?
1902
LE
I.*
I was reminded today that a lot of these bolts are interchangeable so the above may not be original..
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: Marrakai]
      #16164 - 24/06/04 11:01 PM

Marrakai

That means the cased mint A&N Lee Speed that I should have bought 10 years ago it still out there - somewhere!

Guess I should get off my arse and track it down.


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16202 - 25/06/04 08:37 PM

470R:
Neil S___ has probably 'vacuumed it up' in the meantime, and stashed it in the Lee Speed vault!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: 470Rigby]
      #16237 - 26/06/04 10:02 PM

Check out :-Rifles up to 375.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: WTB: BSA Lee Speed commercial sporters esp. 375 [Re: Marrakai]
      #16242 - 27/06/04 12:47 AM

Marrakai

Well I will be seeing his nibs at the Vintagers Rifle Shoot in Melbourne next weekend - the subject might come up in conversation!!!


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