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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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lancaster
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a rifle from three century's
      #158142 - 03/04/10 06:52 AM

Fuhrmann have send me a link about a remarkable rifle. its our opinion that this started as a muzzle loader percussion Jägerbüchse. much earlier as 1880, I believe around 1860.
this muzzler loader was sometimes build into a breech loader for a now unknown 13 mm cartridge. maybe it was the 12,7x60R or 65R 500 BPE. if the gunmaker M. Band from Suhl was the maker of the muzzle loader or did the overhaul?
some years ago the rifle come on the workbench again, now got a liner for the 5,6x50 R and a scope with a claw mount. for me a pointless work but thats the history of the rifle.












http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=2731103&PHPSESSID=a263ddc87f6cd0a14fb71a9c47ca413c

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: a rifle from three century's [Re: lancaster]
      #158150 - 03/04/10 09:49 AM

Blimey, that gun could tell a story ! best, Mike

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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
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Re: a rifle from three century's [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #158154 - 03/04/10 12:48 PM



Lancaster,

the German description of the gun in the link states the gun was manufactured by Band /Suhl in the 1880s. Overhaul was done in 1986 (insertion of a 5.6x50 R tube in the original caliber) and proofed for the new caliber.

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: a rifle from three century's [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #158164 - 03/04/10 06:24 PM

yes, this is the question. did you notice the ramrod on pic no.5?
was band the maker of the original muzzle loader or was it he who build the breech loader from the muzzle loader?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
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Re: a rifle from three century's [Re: lancaster]
      #158200 - 04/04/10 06:05 PM

Without a close look at the rifle, one cannot tell for sure if it started its life as a muzzleloader, or if it was made to look that way.
My feeling is that ramrod and patchbox need a purpose to be there, and look at shape and position of the hammer.

On the other hand, even today similar rifles are built:
www.wutti-jagdwaffen.at/de/downloads/dwj01.pdf

Fuhrmann

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lancaster
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Re: a rifle from three century's [Re: fuhrmann]
      #158207 - 04/04/10 10:15 PM

frohe ostern fuhrmann

yes, the patchbox and the ramrod!
thats, what making me sure about it. but btw it would not be a wonder if M. Band have build the muzzle loader in the time between 1860 to 1870 and also did the conversation into a breech loader some years later.
"So lange die Alpen glühen" will the "Ischler Stutzen" be made but its some kind of a living fossil and such rifle's with ramrod and patchbox remind us for his root's.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: a rifle from three century's [Re: lancaster]
      #158379 - 07/04/10 03:35 AM

IMHO this is not a converted muzzleloader, but it was originally built this way, cleaning rod and patchbox on a breechloading tifle! This is a predominantly Austrian type of stalking rifle, commonly called aan "Ischler Stutzen", after Bad Ischl, a spa in Austria and once the summer resort of emperor Franz Josef I. Such rifles were also made in Suhl for the Austrian market, I know a later one by E.Schmidt & Habermann. The common earmarks of thie Ischler Stutzen are: A break-open hammer action, stocked to the muzzle, more often witha ornate horn triggerguard extension instead of a pistol grip. Early ones from blackpowder times often came with a cleaning rod under the barrel and a patchbox for other cleaning equipment. Reason: These rifles were designed for alpine stalking for chamois, roe and red deer. In the 19th century a hunter in the Alps had to walk up into the mountains with all equipment on his person, rifle on shoulder and some food in a rucksack. He then staied for a week or so uphill, sleeping in the huts of the summer pastures. Under these conditions cleaning equipment came in handy to remove blackpowder fouling between stalks and to prevent rusting in the bore, or to remove a torn case. After the perfection of cartridge cases and the introduction of smokeless ther was no need for a cleaning rod on the rifle any more, so these and patchboxes were left off on later Ischler Stutzen. I know such a later rifle with a short 18" barrel in 6.5x53R Mannlicher with a 4x Kahles Mignon scope by Springer, Vienna. Except for cleaning rod and patch box it is nearly identical in styling to this rifle, including Jones underlever and hammer backlock. These full-stocked Ischler Stutzen may have served as models for the design of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer stutzen.

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by kuduae (07/04/10 03:39 AM)

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fuhrmann
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Re: a rifle from three century's [Re: kuduae]
      #158388 - 07/04/10 06:36 AM

Kuduae,

thanks for this information!
As you have seen similar pieces built even later our question is answered.
Anyway, the rifle is quite unique, and it is a pity that it has been "modernized" / vandalized. The auction closed today at 1125 Euro, much less than the cost for scope, mount and barrel liner.

But I am quite astonished that "Ischlerstutzen" were even made in Suhl.

Regards,
Fuhrmann

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DarylS
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Re: a rifle from three century's [Re: fuhrmann]
      #158390 - 07/04/10 06:59 AM

I don't believe it was originally a muzzleloader, either. Converted muzzlelaoders to breech loaders usually have much earlier, poorly designed breeches. The underlever and solid steel action speaks of primary manufacture.
Wiping sticks were incorporated on many ctg. guns in the States as well - to the order of the person having the gun made.
There were also some ctg. guns in the US made to resemble fit and finish (stock and furniture) of famous muzzleloaders of the frontier, mainly those of the Hawken Bros, but made by Sharps or Spencer.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: a rifle from three century's [Re: DarylS]
      #158463 - 08/04/10 03:55 AM

it seems plausible but I cant believe that the original 13mm was a useful mountain cartridge. all of the few possible cartridges have a trajectory like a mortar grenade. not a good choice for a chamois hunter.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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450_366
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Re: a rifle from three century's [Re: lancaster]
      #158465 - 08/04/10 04:47 AM

Quote:

it seems plausible but I cant believe that the original 13mm was a useful mountain cartridge. all of the few possible cartridges have a trajectory like a mortar grenade. not a good choice for a chamois hunter.



Thats a matter of stalking capabilities, isnt it.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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