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BPEBuff
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.450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight????
      #157873 - 30/03/10 08:06 PM

Gents,
Have been given a hundred really high quality, hollow base, cast lead heads for my .450 x 3 1/4" BPE DR. Trouble is, they are 405 gr and Graeme Wright only lists heads up to 365gr in his BP loading tables for this calibre. He recommends 120gr of BP (I will use Swiss 2f)for 300 and 365gr heads, would it be ok to use these 405gr heads with a reduced charge - maybe 100gr?? It probably won't regulate with these heads but maybe I could use them for practice loads?
As usual, your advice/opinions greatly welcomed.
Cheers
Garry.

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rigbymauser
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #157888 - 31/03/10 12:08 AM

You and your gun will barely notice a 40grain difference. If your gun regulates..keep rocking

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DarylS
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #157898 - 31/03/10 12:35 AM

I would use the full load and see where and how it shoots with the 405gr. You do not have to adjust the measure just because of the bullet's weight, from a pressure generation perspective.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: DarylS]
      #157918 - 31/03/10 04:42 AM

Garry-


Do you already have a load that has the rifle hitting both barrels to the sights?

Good success to you on the load development, let us know how it goes and what load ends up working for you.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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BPEBuff
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: tinker]
      #157985 - 01/04/10 08:29 AM

Tinker,

I am visiting the range on Saturday and wil let you know how it goes. My friend thought they were 405 grain but I weighed them today before loading and they are 390 grain (probably due to hollow base configuration) but I still dropped the charge on those to 110 grains of Swiss 2f, the rest are 300grain so they are loaded with the full measure!! This is my first DR so I am on the learning curve of regulating DRs......

Cheers

Garry.

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DarylS
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #157987 - 01/04/10 08:42 AM

Well, gotta start somewhere and go from there. Good luck.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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50Calshtr
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: DarylS]
      #157999 - 01/04/10 10:06 AM

I beg to disagree. Max loads with heavier than originally loaded bullets is not the way to learn to shoot a 100 year old rifle. The original bullets were 260 to 330 grains in the older loadings. Only the later nitro for black loads used a 365 grain bullet and you want to start with 400 +/-?
First order of business is to do some research. Graeme Wright and Ross Seyfried are two knowledgable authors on the subject. Contrary to some advise already given a 10 or 20 grain difference in bullet weight can make or break your loading efforts, heck even the shape of the bullet can effect regulation. The thought that a 40 grain heavy bullet will make no difference reflects a lack of experience and research. Best thing you can do with the heavier bullets is to trade them for some lighter ones, the RCBS 300Gr flat nose gas check is a good one for this caliber, I use it in mine.

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calpappas
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #158007 - 01/04/10 01:42 PM

Gents: In the past when I have used heavier than normal bullets I have dropped the powder charge a like percentage to keep pressures within safe levels. Regulation is another matter and the rifle may or may not group well.
Cal

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

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450_366
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: calpappas]
      #158014 - 01/04/10 04:52 PM

Theres a reason why they went up in bullet weight on the nfb loads, go with the 405gr.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Paul
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: 450_366]
      #158022 - 01/04/10 09:55 PM

Quote:

I beg to disagree. Max loads with heavier than originally loaded bullets is not the way to learn to shoot a 100 year old rifle. The original bullets were 260 to 330 grains in the older loadings. Only the later nitro for black loads used a 365 grain bullet and you want to start with 400 +/-?




Having just read Ellis Brown's book on making db rifles, I recall him saying the German proof load was just to add 10% to the bullet weight on the same charge of powder. So, even with the hole, those '405'-grainers could be right up there, testing your metal big-time.

I understand the whole idea of BP express cartridges was to get higher velocities using lighter bullets. It may not have worked and might seem whimpy seeing the heavy bullets in nitro-express cartridges, but that seems to have been the aim of Victorian gunmakers.

Edited by Paul (01/04/10 11:31 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: Paul]
      #158033 - 02/04/10 12:55 AM

I believe it was Selous who used and suggested 480gr. to 500gr. hardened lead bullets in the .450 BPE for use on elephant.(or was it Taylor who suggested this?) Of course, too-slow a rifling twist could eliminate the heavier bullet's use due to stability problems.

Smokeless equivalent loads kick considerably less than black - going to a heavier bullet to compensate might help with regulation - as Andreas suggested.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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rigbymauser
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: DarylS]
      #158050 - 02/04/10 05:08 AM

Quote:

I believe it was Selous who used and suggested 480gr. to 500gr. hardened lead bullets in the .450 BPE for use on elephant.(or was it Taylor who suggested this?) Of course, too-slow a rifling twist could eliminate the heavier bullet's use due to stability problems.

Smokeless equivalent loads kick considerably less than black - going to a heavier bullet to compensate might help with regulation - as Andreas suggested.



I believe Selous used a .461Gibbs with 90grains blackpowder and a 570grain coppercoated leadbullet for elephants for a peroid of time with great succes..

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Paul
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #158119 - 03/04/10 12:36 AM

Quote:



Smokeless equivalent loads kick considerably less than black - going to a heavier bullet to compensate might help with regulation - as Andreas suggested.



Yes, Daryl, I guess the additional 25 grains of lead is less than the extra ejecta in the black-powder load, so could help the regulation. It still sounds too good to be true, though, and I wish Andreas, had been a bit less cryptic - it's easier to accept advice in this dangerous business if the reasoning is explained.

But obviously, from your answers on Herrdoktor's powder thread, you both load with caution so I'll take your words for it.

- Paul

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450_366
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: Paul]
      #158124 - 03/04/10 01:24 AM

Quote:


It still sounds too good to be true, though, and I wish Andreas, had been a bit less cryptic - it's easier to accept advice in this dangerous business if the reasoning is explained.


- Paul



Sorry about that, i didnt want to get to involved in a discussion as im not a expert it this, take a look here load data and the 45-120 it gives at least some idea on the pressures on the 450bpe.

And that german method of adding 10% bullet weight was on bp loads, i think it would be quite nasty with smokeless.
As asidenote most of the NE,s where also tested with a bp load, that gave the desired overpressure.

And naturally one needs to adapt the charge if one load with a heavier bullet, adding weight only ruins accuracy not the gun if the charge is dropped at the same time.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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50Calshtr
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: 450_366]
      #158223 - 05/04/10 01:54 AM

Gentlemen,
A few thoughts from someone who has been loading these calibers for 30 years.
- Comparing cartridges based on the shape doesn't work (ie the 45-120). Look at the bullet to powder weight ratio. In the express calibers it's about 2 or 3 to one, in the military or sharps calibers it's about twice that, 5 or 6 to one. The express calibers were built for speed over a short distance where the militarys were built for longer range impact/penetration. Comparing the two is like matching a sports car to a John Deere, both do their entirerly different jobs very well but don't trade them.
- Ross Seyfrieds 40% of 4198 works very well and at lower pressure than black, but only if you follow it closely and be double damned sure to pack in the dacron. I've tried everything printed in the last 30 years and this is the best. Be sure to use the correct bullet weight! SEE BELOW!
- Shooting nitro loads, or anything close to them, in a BPE or Nitro for Black gun will destroy it, if not immeadiately in a short while. I had a friend who bought a German double 450 3 1/4, didn't check the proofs but swore the seller told him it was a NE gun. Six rounds later it came apart, left lock came completely off, stock cracked multiple places, upper tang bent, trigger plate and triggers/springs all bent up. The only thing that didn't let go was the breach. Bottom line, we're trying to make the old dogs bark again, not trying to teach them new tricks.
- Duplex loads, ie smokeless and black, scare the poop out of me. I know Graeme Wright mentions several but Ross Seyfried and I talked about these and we both feel the same. About 20 years ago I was involved in developing tank ammunition using duplex and in some cases triplex loads, some of those did really weird things I wouldn't want to duplicate in a 100 year old rifle.
- These are the thoughts of an old fart, take them for what they are if you want, but remember you are only the caretaker of that rifle for the next generation.

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450_366
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #158246 - 05/04/10 08:02 AM

Quote:

Gentlemen,
A few thoughts from someone who has been loading these calibers for 30 years.
- Comparing cartridges based on the shape doesn't work (ie the 45-120). Look at the bullet to powder weight ratio. In the express calibers it's about 2 or 3 to one, in the military or sharps calibers it's about twice that, 5 or 6 to one. The express calibers were built for speed over a short distance where the militarys were built for longer range impact/penetration. Comparing the two is like matching a sports car to a John Deere, both do their entirerly different jobs very well but don't trade them.
- Ross Seyfrieds 40% of 4198 works very well and at lower pressure than black, but only if you follow it closely and be double damned sure to pack in the dacron. I've tried everything printed in the last 30 years and this is the best. Be sure to use the correct bullet weight! SEE BELOW!
- Shooting nitro loads, or anything close to them, in a BPE or Nitro for Black gun will destroy it, if not immeadiately in a short while. I had a friend who bought a German double 450 3 1/4, didn't check the proofs but swore the seller told him it was a NE gun. Six rounds later it came apart, left lock came completely off, stock cracked multiple places, upper tang bent, trigger plate and triggers/springs all bent up. The only thing that didn't let go was the breach. Bottom line, we're trying to make the old dogs bark again, not trying to teach them new tricks.
- Duplex loads, ie smokeless and black, scare the poop out of me. I know Graeme Wright mentions several but Ross Seyfried and I talked about these and we both feel the same. About 20 years ago I was involved in developing tank ammunition using duplex and in some cases triplex loads, some of those did really weird things I wouldn't want to duplicate in a 100 year old rifle.
- These are the thoughts of an old fart, take them for what they are if you want, but remember you are only the caretaker of that rifle for the next generation.



And in what way does a 350gr bullet from a 45-120 differ from a 365 in a 450bpe? accept the 15grs offcourse.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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DarylS
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: 450_366]
      #158366 - 07/04/10 01:25 AM

.45 3 1/4" Sharps and the .450 BPE are quite applicable to each other as Andreas noted. I caught his drift as I've loaded for the single barreled Sharps .45 3 1/4" and know one is not restricted to any bullet weight, as most double rifles are.
It matters not whether one is loading a 270gr. as some earlier dobules were regulated for, or 300, 360gr. or even 400gr. to 600gr. Once merely loads the ammo and tests it to see how it works.
By the same line of thinking, you load the .400gr. for the BPE and test them - no amount of speculation is going to tell you if it will work (regulate and be accurate) in your rifle - you have to pull the trigger and see what happens. Stay away from finer granulations powders as in 3F - use only 2f or 1 1/2F is plenty fine enough. Some guys get their best BP accuracy in single barrels with 1F. Most double shooters, I'm told, use Swiss 1 1/2F for 2F.
I was able to produce excessive pressures in my .50 Sharps using 3F - flowed the primer back into the pin hole - too much pressure for the design and yet I used black powder. The same gun launched 500gr. bulelts at 1,900fps using smokeless powder, without any pressure signs.
So - stay with the 2f, 1 1/2 or even 1F grades of black powders - no phoney Black Powders, either.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BPEBuff
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: DarylS]
      #158443 - 07/04/10 10:20 PM

Daryl,

Many thanks for your help and info, due to a serious illness in the family my range trip didn't happen but I will be going for it shortly. I respect very much what you say and will try the 390 grain hollow base RNL bullets but I am going to reduce the charge to 110gr of Swiss 2f. Got talking to a friend from the Vintage Arms Association who shoots a .500 BPE DR and he advises against using hollow base heads because of increased pressure problems?? My gut feeling is to go for it and see what happens! I will also load a few up with 48 gr of IMR4198 and a foam filler (as supplied by Kynoch) and a 300gr gas checked RNL. Isn't it amazing how much DR advice there is out there and how much of it conflicts with what other 'experts' think!! I will listen to you on this.
Pics of the Lawson DR to follow in the next few days.

Cheers

Garry.

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450_366
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #158446 - 07/04/10 11:27 PM

Quote:

Daryl,

Many thanks for your help and info, due to a serious illness in the family my range trip didn't happen but I will be going for it shortly. I respect very much what you say and will try the 390 grain hollow base RNL bullets but I am going to reduce the charge to 110gr of Swiss 2f. Got talking to a friend from the Vintage Arms Association who shoots a .500 BPE DR and he advises against using hollow base heads because of increased pressure problems?? My gut feeling is to go for it and see what happens! I will also load a few up with 48 gr of IMR4198 and a foam filler (as supplied by Kynoch) and a 300gr gas checked RNL. Isn't it amazing how much DR advice there is out there and how much of it conflicts with what other 'experts' think!! I will listen to you on this.
Pics of the Lawson DR to follow in the next few days.

Cheers

Garry.



Dont forget a thinker wad on the 110gr load, should also get rid of anny pressure problems due to the cup based bullet (i think).

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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DarylS
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: 450_366]
      #158451 - 08/04/10 01:22 AM

TKs for the kind words, Garry. Many of us have a lot of experience with black powder, bullets and ctg. rifles & this experience is applicable no matter the configuration of the barrel or barrels.

Yes - a good suggestion, Andreas - a hard wad underneath the bullet will prevent any skirt obturation and subsequent pressing contact with the barrel walls - however - a hollow base makes the bullet longer for it's weight and increases the necessary rate of rifling twist, somewhat. If the twist is in the 24" or faster range, I'd try the heavier bullets. If it is slower, ie: 1 turn in 30"(or slower), I'd probably stick with 300 to 360gr. flat based bullets.

It is a simple matter to check the twist rate as they were all over the board. With a tight patch on a jag started into the muzzle and run to the top of the chamber, mark the rod with felt pen on a piece of tape right at the muzzle's top/centre edge. Pull the rod out until the mark turns 'round & sits at 6 o'clock, ie; 1/2 turn. Mark again at the muzzle, then withdraw and measure between the marks. Then multiply by 2. That's the rate of twist. It is most easily done with the barrels clamped one over the other in the vise, so the mark is visible side to side, from top dead centre, to bottom dead centre, rather than having to look underneath the tubes to see it.

It is true that a hollow based bullet will increase pressure slightly. Increase it to unsafe levels, I doubt very much.

With the DR's, regulation becomes the sickler. There are a number of lightweight bullets that do very well indeed.

At one time, I had a double cavity RCBS mould for what they called their 300gr. .457 or .458 bullet. It was very accurate in my Rolling Block, Sharps and Winchester M94 in .45 Colt. I was, however, wanting at that time to more or less duplicate the Express bullet, so I converted one cavity to a hollow point. I used that bullet in the .45 Colt(revolver ctg.) M94 lever gun to kill 2 elk, a bull and a cow. My load (RP brass only) gave me 1,740fps (not an error) from the 16" Trapper's barrel, which pretty much duplicated the .450 BPE's factory load with the same bullet weight. It was very effective, neck shot the cow (by accident), dropping her in 70 yards, and high lunged the bull clipping the spine then exited, dropping him on the spot. That was with the HP bullet, cast in straight WW metal. So - don't discount the lighter bullets as they worked back in the 1800's and still work today.

The RCBS Hollow Point cavity cast a 305gr. bullet in WW alloy, while the solid cavity cast at 322gr. Accuracy was identical with both & they shot into the same group. I used beeswax/vaseline for lube, 60/40 mix then and still do as a BP or smokeless lube for .45 cal and larger. It's as good as SPG or Lyman Black Powder Gold lubes and allows lead bullets to run up to 2,000fps without leading and fine accuracy.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BPEBuff
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: DarylS]
      #158765 - 12/04/10 06:12 AM

Daryl,

One last question if I may regarding case fillers. I have pulled the 390gr HBRNL heads mentioned above and dropped the charge from 110gr to 100gr of Swiss 2f to be on the safe side. I have filled the hollow base of the heads with beeswax and filled the 7mm gap between the powder column and bullet base with 12gr of rice. Will rice be ok - it is recommended in some old timer loading manuals I have? Yours/other opinions welcomed on this.

Garry.

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DarylS
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #158832 - 13/04/10 12:23 AM

My brother used to shoot light (100gr. ) loads in his .45 3-1/4" Sharps and achieved excellent accuracy using card wads to fill the space between the bullet and black powder. Black powder likes a bit of compression - maybe up to 1/8" in that long a case.
I don't see why the rice wouln't work, as long as you've a wad between the rice and powder and another wad between the rice and the bullet. Rice is pretty heavy.
The long stack of wads my bro used with his 2F loads didn't raise pressures that were recordable, but shows that this is quite relaxed, non critical loading. Just about whatever works is OK.

I would be inclined to use a wad over the powder, compress that 1/8" using and plunger (wad seater/compressor) in a loading die mounted in the press. Then fill the case to the top or almost to the top with something easily compresssible, like Winchester's Grex shotshell filler, then seat the bullet down to whatever level you need for chambering, ensuring the Grex is compressed as well.

Merely keep in mind BP likes some compression to burn well.

You might find best accuracy in that long 3-1/4" case if using a magnum primer. BP is easily ignited and doesn't need the extra flame merely for ignition, BUT, seems to be more accurate in many rifles if one is used. Even my 1.9" (.45/60) Sharps shoots better with a magnum primer than with a simple large rifle primer.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BPEBuff
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #158833 - 13/04/10 12:28 AM

Daryl/others,

I have found another reference to using 'Cream of Wheat' (or Semolina as it's called in the UK)as a case filler so maybe I will switch to that as it is much finer? Perhaps I am worrying unnecessarily in dropping the charge to 100gr but I have always followed the 'heavier bullet = less powder charge' doctrine when reloading?? Even though it is a BPE, the tubes on this DR are massive and I am sure it would take a serious overcharge to blow them! Any advice welcomed.

Garry.

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DarylS
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #158855 - 13/04/10 09:26 AM

Your Nitro should be just fine. For your piece of mind, by all means, start low and watch for extraction or opening dificulties before increasing the charge. Reducing the charge could be necessary to get the barrels to regulate, anyway. I'd start at your 100gr. load, if I were you.

I don't like cream of wheat as I've had a lump of it cook onto the inside of the case neck, which must be cleaned off prior to cleaning the brass and re-loading it.

I am a bit leary of placing a card wad between the powder and the filler form the standpoint that that wad might be viewed as an obstruction. A disk of thin card, like tablet backing might be just fine - if needed - probably isn't. It is best to have Black Powder in hard contact with the bullet and would mean more hard wads between the two when using lighter charges.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BPEBuff
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Re: .450 Express BP Loads - max bullet weight???? [Re: DarylS]
      #159767 - 30/04/10 07:20 PM

Daryl/xausa,
Finally took some jpgs of the Lawson DR - please see DR forum.

G.

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