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hoser
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Reged: 06/01/10
Posts: 86
Loc: California, USA

How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only?
#156594 - 16/03/10 02:38 AM

OK, how many of you feel scoping a DR, even with QD rings, ruins the balance of them? I've received emails saying not to do it and get another rifle like a bolt or single shot for longer range shots with a scope...especially with 9.3x74R, which is a shorter range cartridge.

Are any of you of the "DR are meant for irons only!" mentality?

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CptCurl
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: hoser]
#156600 - 16/03/10 03:48 AM

Depends on which DR you are talking about. Some have irons only, some have QD scopes. I'll assure you a scoped DR in the correct caliber is capable of long shots.

Curl

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carpediem4570
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: CptCurl]
#156602 - 16/03/10 04:03 AM

Greetings from the North:

I have two DR's, both scoped. As I am now 50 and my eyes aren't quite what they used to be, I have scoped both rifles.

Also, As most of the hunting here is 60 plus yards (unless your like my wife who shoots her deer at 60 feet. Damn I wish I could hold still and be quiet like that)I feel more comfortable shooting with a scoped rifle.

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"

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AkMike
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: hoser]
#156619 - 16/03/10 05:25 AM

Quote:

especially with 9.3x74R, which is a shorter range cartridge.

Compared to what? What makes you think that this is a short range cartridge?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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500Nitro
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: AkMike]
#156621 - 16/03/10 05:38 AM

I only have 2 scoped Double rifles, my Merkel 375H&H and my Zoli 9.3 x 74R.

The rest are all unscoped.

Edited by 500Nitro (16/03/10 06:07 AM)

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mickey
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: 500Nitro]
#156624 - 16/03/10 06:00 AM

I have two scoped Doubles, a 9.3 and a 450/400. I like them both with scopes as they are both very accurate. I also like them both with the open sights as they handle better. It reduces the range substantially for me though.

I have a nice .303 that I would love to have a scope on but lack the mental toughness to go ahead and do it.

I am not sure that anything bigger than a 400 is a candidate for a scope.

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Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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9dot3x74R
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: AkMike]
#156630 - 16/03/10 07:33 AM

The 9.3x74R is quite capable way beyond the iron sights.

With Norma Vulkan ammo (as mine is regulated) it has a theoretical max PBR of 240m (3" radius) and enough energy to kill a deer way past 400m where it only needs an 8 moa hold over.

Mind you, I'm still waiting for my permit to acquire to arrive, so I haven't shot it yet.

Yes, I'll probably put a scope on, since it already comes with Recknagel swing mount bases.

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Buchsemann
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: 9dot3x74R]
#156640 - 16/03/10 10:25 AM

Hello Hoser,

The title question was pretty cut and dry but then the body of the post went into that subjective zone. I was just wondering, based on the rest of the post, if this was something you wanted to know out of idle curiosity or perhaps you are struggling with the idea of mounting a scope on a classic? I'm pretty picky about good original condition stuff, on the collector end of things - older guns, so if the piece didn't already have bases on it I wouldn't add any, that's just me. Anyway, would a scope mess up the balance, not IMHO. As to the bolt rifle thing, many have already shared my sentiments on the scope deal as a necessity if ones eyes "ain't what they used to be". It really doesn't matter at that point if it's a bolt or a double. I don't have any QD systems on any of my bolt guns, can't really say why not though. As to the 9.3X74R being a "shorter range cartridge", you certainly won't be hearing the folks from the Best of the West touting the use of the 9.3X74R for any of their 800 to 1000 yard sniper action. While interesting in many technical ways I find that show ... frick'n goofy, at least if one has any hunting skills at all. I would imagine all this probably answers your last question too.

Anyway, I was just wondering what you were up to. Did you already buy or are you looking to buy a 9.3X74R double? If you did or you do, by all means let us see it.

Regards,

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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calpappas
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: Buchsemann]
#156653 - 16/03/10 01:11 PM

Gents:
I agree with Mickey--anything over 400 does not need a scope. I have a 1 1/4-4x Swarovski on my Harrison and Hussey .450-400 box lock ejector as my eyes are getting old. No scope on my black powder express, bore rifles (8-7-4), and my .450 no 2 and .600.
Cal

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NitroX
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: hoser]
#156655 - 16/03/10 01:21 PM

Quote:

OK, how many of you feel scoping a DR, even with QD rings, ruins the balance of them? I've received emails saying not to do it and get another rifle like a bolt or single shot for longer range shots with a scope...especially with 9.3x74R, which is a shorter range cartridge.

Are any of you of the "DR are meant for irons only!" mentality?

My 9.3x74R is scoped with QD mounts. My .30-06 set of barrels will be too. My .450 is not. If I had a .400 as I hope to, it will have a set of QD mounts.

I've read saying get a second single shot rifle in the same calibre, scope that and carry two rifles, one an unscoped DR and a single shot scoped in the same calibre.

Heard it said on the internet, never seen it done or actually read anyone doing it on a real safari. Sure a tracker could carry an extra rifle and they often do, usually a lighter rifle, not one in the same calibre.

If a scope and QD mounts work well, at worst it will turn a double rifle into an effective single shot with increased range over the open sights.

IMO.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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4seventy
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: hoser]
#156666 - 16/03/10 02:25 PM

In some places where I hunt pigs, a scope is a necessity due to much of the shooting needing to be done in very low sometimes non existant light. If I didn't have a scoped double I would have to take a scoped bolt gun.
I would much rather use a double, so I have two which are scoped, and which work great in a variety of hunting conditions including very low light.
Both are fitted with QD mounts so that I can always easily remove the scope and enjoy the better handling and greater satisfaction of using the open sights.
Open sights are my preferred system on a double, but sadly in extreme low light conditions they are pretty well useless.

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gatsby
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: hoser]
#156675 - 16/03/10 05:22 PM

I agree that a scope can improve the usefulness of a double and make up for aging eyes and low light conditions. But just like scoping a sixgun, it just don't look right and it just don't feel right.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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DandyofPunjab
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: gatsby]
#156680 - 16/03/10 07:31 PM

Quote:

I agree that a scope can improve the usefulness of a double and make up for aging eyes and low light conditions. But just like scoping a sixgun, it just don't look right and it just don't feel right.

I'll second that.

IMO it looks like a roof rack on a Rolls Royce

--------------------
Fear None, Frighten None

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93mouse
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: DandyofPunjab]
#156685 - 16/03/10 10:05 PM

I use open sights only on my 9,3 Merkel. There are limitations that are conditional to use and enjoy them. I’ve tried to bring myself around and here is roughly how I apply it (just speaking strictly for myself).

Major

I have shot so many game so far with my scoped rifles that I am well over that phase when you consider a hunt to be unsuccessful if you don’t end up with a dead animal. Now I am really enjoying Hunting – and open sighted double just goes along perfect. Passing not just a shot here and there but on occasions most of them shouldn’t be of any significance. If I couldn’t get over that I’d scope it.

Eyesight

Just turning 40 next month – my eyesight is still good enough to use irons responsibly. Once I won’t see the bead clearly I will stop using them. Making the bead bigger or brighter may work on very close work on elephants – almost all else is irresponsible to the quarry – spray and pray is not my cup of tea –shoot to kill or pass. If I couldn’t get over that I’d scope it.

Art

Shooting irons very well doesn’t come per-se. It is a form of art that evolves after many - many rounds down the range with a single rifle and it’s set of sights. If you expect you will just grab that rifle out of the box and go dinging gongs at long range – good luck. Almost anybody can shoot irons reasonably well out to 30m maybe 50m. However things get rapidly worse with distance. All the sudden many things must come together just perfect to achieve acceptable result repeatedly on longer ranges – and it isn’t going to happen every day. If I couldn’t get over that I’d scope it.

Anyway – after 2 ½ years with my Merkel I am still learning and trying to improve the rifle, sights and my shooting just to achieve what the rifle is capable of, therefore I still have a long way to go before I will be satisfied - I just hope my eyesight will be there that far. If I couldn’t get over that I’d scope it.

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Buchsemann
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: 93mouse]
#156723 - 17/03/10 04:08 AM

I like 93mouse's simply put art vs. ethics way of looking at things, the ethical shot only an assumption in my earlier response. The art part will always be subjective but for those of us who are respectful of our quarry and do not take unethical shots the eyesight and "need" to shoot part comes into play. If one doesn't not want to mount a scope on a double (I agree, they look a lot better without) then they will find themselves somewhat limited depending on the quality of their eyesight and of course the distance to their target. Having the option of mounting a scope or not (recommended QD systems) opens up opportunities not afforded to those without said option. I don’t feel there is any need with this group to go through the varied conditions of typical hunts to include distances realized. We all know some people can’t hit “the broadside of a barn” even with the aid of a scope. If it weren’t for the butchery that the animals are put through, the shaking, heavy breathing, and perhaps other involuntary acts that some people do when their opportunity to shoot comes around could be seen as funny. No matter where this thread goes I’m sure most of us, I’m hoping all, agree that good marksmanship takes a lot of practice and that, as goes for many things in life, if you expect the unexpected and prepare for the worst your odds of success will improve.

Peace

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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tinker
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: Buchsemann]
#156764 - 17/03/10 03:05 PM

I like the irons on my double rifles.

I think that the most modern one was built right around 1880.
It's a magnum express rifle and doesn't have flip sights, just one unmarked shallow vee and a slender little blade up front.

None of them have been altered to handle telescopic sights.

If my eyesight goes to hell I'll first look at lasic before I look for scope mounts.
We shall see...

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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crkennedy1
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: tinker]
#156768 - 17/03/10 03:41 PM

The older I get, the blinder I get, but I just can't bring myself to put a scope on either one of my doubles. To me its a form of desicration! (But, if the right Swarovski or Leupold were to come along, I may be persuaded to change my mind...)

--------------------
DOUBLE or NOTHING

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srose
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: crkennedy1]
#156789 - 18/03/10 12:13 AM

As I get older and my eyes are getting worse I have to wear glasses to see the front sights clearly and I hope and pray they don't get any worse than they are now. I just have to get closer to shoot now. That makes it more sporting and exciting any way. I hope I never think of putting a scope on a double thats what bolt actions are for. I want to throw up every time I see a scoped SXS now you can scope an O&U those really don't count.

Sam

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DM
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: crkennedy1]
#156790 - 18/03/10 12:16 AM

Here's another set of old eyes... But, even though i do like the iron sights on my double, they just don't work in low light conditions. Last fall i hunted whitetails with my Chapuis, but i wanted to "pick" the deer i was going to shoot, and every time they came out, i just couldn't pick out the deer i wanted with the iron sights... Next fall, i'll be using the scope!

DM

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: DM]
#156821 - 18/03/10 06:44 AM

My eyes aren't what they were and I'm wearing glasses now. I can use iron sights out to about 50-60 yds but after that it's dim, apertures are much better but I had my .375 made with a QD mount to make it an all round rifle, over .450 I always think of a stopper, i.e. 30 yds or less, so irons only, just my 20 centimos worth, best, Mike

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xausa
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: hoser]
#156840 - 18/03/10 10:12 AM

Back in 1970, when I ordered my Krieghoff over and under .458 double rifle, the options for open sights were pretty few. I requested a shallow vee back sight and a patridge front, which is more or less what I got. The normal German rear sight at that time was more like a pistol sight, with a narrow U notch, and definitely not something you would want to try to acquire quickly in an emergency.

Well, the folks at Krieghoff did the best they could, but any resemblance to British double rifle rear sights is purely coincidental. I have never used them on game, and now, at age 71, I'm sure I never will. My Lyman All American straight tube 1" scope in claw mounts without the see-through arrangement works very well and does not interfere with reloading. Contrary to the modern trend, I find 22 mm scopes most appealing and regret the passing of such beauties as the Zeiss Zielklein, the Lyman Alaskan, and the Noske Field Scope.

I have shot one elephant, one Cape buffalo, and (with the interchangeable barrels in .375 H&H) an eland, a greater and lesser kudu, a lion and a leopard, with that rifle, all with the scope mounted. If there had been a way to mount a stout, fully adjustable aperture receiver sight on the rifle, I would have seriously considered using that, but that was a thing of the future. New England Custom Guns imports a dandy from Recknagel, I believe, which fits a number of scope bases, but not, alas, my claw mounts. They will be just the thing for my .416 Ruger No. 1, however. (Yes Carpetsahib, I still have it.)

Having said that, I agree that a scope on a classic side by side double rifle interferes with the lines of the weapon, and I would be loath to use such a thing. I have a set of shooting glasses with lenses especially made to allow me to see my pistol sights. I have no doubt that something similar could be done with double rifle open sights, should I wish to pursue that goal.

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hoser
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: Buchsemann]
#156850 - 18/03/10 03:17 PM

Quote:

Hello Hoser,

The title question was pretty cut and dry but then the body of the post went into that subjective zone. I was just wondering, based on the rest of the post, if this was something you wanted to know out of idle curiosity or perhaps you are struggling with the idea of mounting a scope on a classic? I'm pretty picky about good original condition stuff, on the collector end of things - older guns, so if the piece didn't already have bases on it I wouldn't add any, that's just me. Anyway, would a scope mess up the balance, not IMHO. As to the bolt rifle thing, many have already shared my sentiments on the scope deal as a necessity if ones eyes "ain't what they used to be". It really doesn't matter at that point if it's a bolt or a double. I don't have any QD systems on any of my bolt guns, can't really say why not though. As to the 9.3X74R being a "shorter range cartridge", you certainly won't be hearing the folks from the Best of the West touting the use of the 9.3X74R for any of their 800 to 1000 yard sniper action. While interesting in many technical ways I find that show ... frick'n goofy, at least if one has any hunting skills at all. I would imagine all this probably answers your last question too.

Anyway, I was just wondering what you were up to. Did you already buy or are you looking to buy a 9.3X74R double? If you did or you do, by all means let us see it.

Regards,

Buchseman

I plunged and purchased a Chapuis 9.3x74R. I also have the Chapuis mount and rings and before mounting it with a Leupold 1.5x5 scope, thought I'd see how many of you feel it's "just not right" to scope a DR. But sounds like it's not taboo and perhaps more ethical for the animal since my eyes too are aging!

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AkMike
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: hoser]
#156852 - 18/03/10 04:08 PM

It's a new rifle.. slap the scope on already. If it were 100 yrs old then it's time to make a moral decision. Not this time.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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tinker
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: AkMike]
#156853 - 18/03/10 04:45 PM

What he said...

Quote:

It's a new rifle.. slap the scope on already. If it were 100 yrs old then it's time to make a moral decision. Not this time.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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93mouse
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: xausa]
#156857 - 18/03/10 06:07 PM

Quote:

Contrary to the modern trend, I find 22 mm scopes most appealing and regret the passing of such beauties as the Zeiss Zielklein, the Lyman Alaskan, and the Noske Field Scope.

So true – and it carries a VERY GOOD idea for double rifle makers today – they could easily develop something modern in that matter together with optics manufacturer!

My friend that owns Victor Sarasceta just put an Swaro Z6 on it – brilliant top notch optic device - but one can see a century difference between a scope and rifle…not much of a harmony there - IMO.

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jaz
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: 93mouse]
#156888 - 19/03/10 03:40 AM

I really hate to scope a vintage classic double, as once done can not be undone. You really never own those guns, just posses them for a time. The next guy may not like it and it changes the gun forever. But if the gun is a shooter or a meat gun, aka Merkel, Chaphuis, Heym, I have no issues. Even a classic if done with claw mounts is attractive, to me. My eyes can not shoot past 50 yards accuratley. A 9.3, .375, or 450-400 is a great gun scoped, IMHO. Finding a Holland with original mounts is a bonus.
It really is a personal thing except that the future value must be considered.
John

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Carpetsahib
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: xausa]
#156907 - 19/03/10 12:10 PM

Quote:

They will be just the thing for my .416 Ruger No. 1, however. (Yes Carpetsahib, I still have it.)

Does it kick you as much as it kicked me? I had a Lyman Alaskan scope mounted in a Buehler Mount and it darn near sheared the turret off. Maybe I didn't have the rings tightened correctly since the scope shifted after only two shots. But, what the heck, I was through shooting anyway. One good thing - I learned that the prone position is not ideal for a light weight .416 Rigby!

If you ever decide to sell it, let me know. I would like to have a sample of Harry's work just for old time's sake.

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bwananelson
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: Carpetsahib]
#156910 - 19/03/10 12:49 PM

MERKEL a meat gun oh boy ..... first the 450 400 will punch a little,even my zoli has the scope option and its not a meat gun either i would not call any double a meat gun well maybe a baikal or valmet but any 9.3 or greater nah not a meat gun.iron sights are the classic honorable way to treat these works of art

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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Cavanaugh
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: CptCurl]
#156912 - 19/03/10 01:41 PM

Iron sights only on my 470. I am getting up there in years and wear glasses. The rear sight is fuzzy and the frond bead is fairly clear. I can hit a paving brick every time at 25 yards with it.

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BigUglyMan
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Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: 93mouse]
#157712 - 28/03/10 04:32 PM

I only have one DR - a Merkel 140 AE 470. It's not scoped.

I can't imagine using a scoped double. At least, not now while my eyes are still good. I have bolt guns for tasks requiring scopes.

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An elephant is an awesome amount of death.

The Most Northern Member - Double Rifle Shooters Society

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jaz
.300 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US

Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: bwananelson]
#157935 - 31/03/10 10:44 AM

I guess a nicer name would be "working gun", sorry for the offence, none meant.

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Sville
.400 member

Reged: 23/03/10
Posts: 1189
Loc: Sweden

Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: jaz]
#157954 - 31/03/10 09:53 PM

I think its what you plan to use or the purpose of the double that decide if you scope it or not. And your own valuations. If you have a more valuable double and want to scope it, you likely put in some extra money to secure that it will be done carefully. Both appearance and function. For myself I want to use, hunt and shoot with my rifles, they are not only for exhibition. It is nothing wrong with not scoping, thats everbodys decision to make. But if you scope it you can be in "both worlds" of hunting

.

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Bramble
.375 member

Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England

Re: How many of you do NOT scope your DR and use irons only? [Re: 93mouse]
#157958 - 31/03/10 10:49 PM

Xausa

It may be of interest to you.
Recknagel do make a blank version of that aperture sight that can be machined for any claw mount bases if you wish.

Regards

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