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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game
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freischuetz
.224 member


Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 23
Be warned !
      #15611 - 08/06/04 03:27 AM

Posting on this web site and similar web sites regarding hunting offers in Mozambique concerns me for the following reasons:

PAC. (Problem animal hunts), all problem animal control in Mozambique required the official written authorisation. This is normally given to the government game scouts or in some cases to the concession holder is ask to assist or take care of the animal in question, this have to be done intermediately and not after weeks or months! Any offer for problem animal control hunts to be booked in advance is at least questionable.

Tusk less cow elephant hunting: Ladies and Gentleman there is no such thing in Mozambique! To hunt any elephant in Mozambique you a required to purchase a full elephant license at a cost of about 5000$US plus you must be in procession of a valid hunting licenses. For your information there are no first grade, second grate or local hunter licenses for less$$$ issued. License fees are the same for resident and non-resident hunters!

Fines for illegal hunting are stiff, the minimum is 8x the license fees plus plus….. and jail sentence is also on the card, obviously guns vehicle and other gear including trophy’s get confiscated! (no refund)

In Mozambique the Minister of Tourism is responsible for allocating game quotas to all concession and to some controlled hunting areas! For game farms and other controlled hunting areas quotas are given by the Minister of Agriculture! My advise if you have any doubt about an offer contact them.

We have like all country’s good, not so good and bad operators, the whole spectrum including “famous(BBC)” lion hunters operating in Mozambique. I come across a lot of references and statements on this web sites and in printed brochures which include the statements of “our” or “owned” concession ‘s Mozambique got only 11 concessions in total!!! And less than, a hand full of licensed game farms and some controlled hunting areas! Not all of the concession are operating and some have limited animal resources.

Contact if you got any doubt the relevant Minster to confirm operator and species quota allocation.

Mozambique got good and sound hunting laws but enforcement is weak this can and have been misused by unscrupulous Professional Hunters, Outfitters and Officials.

It is not uncommon for PH’s to show up on shows and marketing hunts in Mozambique to clients without actually having an area themselves or a authorisation to hunt in an area allocated to an operator.

Making false statements about ownership is not a good start to a African hunting experience!

Most of above applies to all African hunting and can be avoided by doing a little research.

Lots of these problems can be avoided if you deal with an established Mozambican operator but also new once have to be given chances it just required a little research effort!

The safari operators in Mozambique would like to welcome you and try to make your safari in Mozambique a enjoyable and unforgettable experience.

Some, hope fully, contact details:

Minister of Tourism, Maputo, National Director of Conservation areas,
MR. Afonso Madope Tel. 303616 Fax. 306212

Minister of Agriculture , Maputo, National Director Fauna and Flora
Mr. Arlito Cucu Tel. 460036 Fax. 460060


I will try to get a updated list of current operators from AMOS which is the Mozambican outfitters association and post it.


--------------------
Time is your treasure use it wisely you can never replace it

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Be warned ! [Re: freischuetz]
      #15615 - 08/06/04 07:58 AM

An interesting and accurate post..... but those who have been to the Zambezi Valley will well know that hardly a night goes by that one can't hear drumming from one native village or another which are an attempt to drive crop raiding Elephants out of the mealie patches. Hence it's not a great problem to get a licence for a crop raider. (in fact from my experience, it's pretty damn easy) I guess I've been hunting the Valley on and off for well over 10 years and I don't think I can think of a single hunt where I haven't been asked if anyone wants to take a crop raider. Perhaps other forum members who have also had actual experience of the Valley can let us know of their experiences. As you say, the authorisation is usually given to the game guard or (from my experience) more usually the concession holder. Certainly, I would always deal with the concession owner rather than the game guard as I never trust a game guard anywhere in Africa to do any more than smell bad.

Tuskless cows: well I don't want to hi-jack your thread, so I won't go into that very deeply. But certainly I've never had the offer of a tuskless cow in Mozambique, but personally I don't believe in sport hunting them at all. IMO Elephant cows should only be shot when it's part of a culling programme where you take out the entire family unit. To do otherwise (IMO) upsets the herd dynamics far too much......but that's a personal opinion and not meant as a criticism to those who disagree with me. Perhaps there's scope there for a seperate debate? The obvious exception to this would be if it were suffering and needed to be put out of it's misery.

does your comment about famous BBC lions relate to the Cook Report thing some time ago? if so, I didn't know they were in Mozambique. I thought they were all based in RSA. Or do you mean they have moved out to Mozambique? If so, I'm suprised......but you're welcome to them. The sooner those type of people go out of business the better. (I'm sure you'll agree)

Concessions: "our concession" is one of those terms that may be interpreted in so many different ways. My website for example states quite clearly that we don't own any hunting areas and are consequently free to offer the client the area most suited to his needs, tastes and finances, but when we decide to use a particular area, we agree and sign a contract with that leaseholder or landowner agreeing a set standard of services & prices etc to cover all eventualities and also camp and area exclusivity . While we're hunting & paying for that area it therefore becomes "our area" at the end of the hunt it reverts back to leassor.

I agree about your comment relating to guys offering hunting they don't have at shows etc. But that's the unscrupulous few and those ethical outfitters amongst us make sure we have the signed contracts before offering anything. But let's face it, this happens all over Africa, not just in Mozambique. Trying to get to the bottom of who might actually hold the lease or own some particular areas can be a nightmare and is usually (at least for me) a sign to steer well clear). A good example ofthis was in Tanzania last year where a widowed wife of a Minister held a lease on an open area and it was being offered through about 6 different middlemen.

you don't tell us much about yourself in your profile, perhaps you would be kind enough to tell us a little more about your background such as how you earn you living, where and type of experience etc....... You obviously know Mozambique hunting reasonably well and I'm sure a lot of forum members would be interested to know more. certainly I would.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (08/06/04 08:03 AM)

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freischuetz
.224 member


Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 23
Re: Be warned ! [Re: shakari]
      #15642 - 09/06/04 04:12 AM

Steve if we would only be living in a perfect world?

Lets start with “problem” animals. There is less problem animals than problem people, giving it some thought there is probably more problem PH’s, outfitters and booking agents than problem animals. Not counting mosquito’s and tsetse flies which is also accountable for many deaths.

On a more serious note, yes there are problem animals on occasions and they have to be taken care of, but firstly, one should try to use non- lethal methods and only after this fails should one consider culling. My experience with problem animals are that in only about 10% of the cases culling is necessary.

The true motivation for the “creation” of most problem animals is as follow: Lots of meat (locals) and very welcome bonus income for the PH, outfitter, concession holder and “official” .

How can someone offer problem animal hunts in advance?? Come on, this is BS and everyone with half a brain knows it. It is done only to make some extra bucks, it is illegal and definitely unethical to both the client and the host country. You can call it creative marketing, maximising profit or whatever, but not hunting?

As for Mozambique there is no legal provision for problem animal licenses and no provision that a client can shoot a problem animal! The only legal way for a client to hunt a problem animal would be to pay for a hunting license for the species and then to use this license to hunt the animal, assuring the concession/lease holder has a quota allocation for this animal species. And here is one of the main reasons for problem animal hunts: The concession holder has limited or no quota on these species and every additional “problem” animal sold is profit.

By the way license fees for male and female in Mozambique a the same, be wary of cheaper female offers. Concession holder do not get extra quotas for females it have to come of the normal quota. Bait animals also require a full license and have to be paid for! Theoretical .

For the clients benefit, if you do not have a license in your name for the animal, do not shoot!

For Booking agents benefit get to know the law in the respective country! I suspect a lot of offers are made in good faith based on information received from the concession holder / PH and passed on without second thought. In the age of internet, email, phone and fax, plus we still got a mail system, do your research and if this is not sufficient try a forum like AR or nitro. This is one of the reason I published the contact numbers of the 2 department in Mozambique which dealing with wildlife and hunting. If anyone is interested and I can figure out how to post the complete Mozambique fauna and flora law I would. ( English) otherwise send a pm with your e-mail and I will send you a copy.

Regarding the tusk less cow elephant: In a post about these hunts on AR. Matt Norman posted a reply referring to such a hunt in Mozambique I still would like to know the outfitter which was involved. IMO culling them selective, tusk less cows, ( not outfitters and not the matriarch ) provided population density’s is close to maximum, and there is a unusual high percentage tusk less cows in the population it is good management, nothing other.

Lion hunter of fame:

Yes the one with the longest cable ( ears to brain? ) is now in Mozambique instead of crawling in a hole and disappear he tried some years ago to set up a lion breading program in Mozambique luckily we got to know about it and stopped it dead. Lately he is somewhere hunting in Tete province with a big advertisement on his internet website, search by name and hunting otherwise you come up with a fast food chain.
I am amazed on the amount of business he got from the cooks report. Shows you the different interpretations of sport hunting and the continuous support he receive from “sport hunters” after all, every one got or makes his one view on ethics?

I don’t wont them and I agree with you get them out of business. How? by marking their clients????

Steve you or me wont change the wrongs alone but if everyone this must include clients and booking agents just change the things we be doing and accept a little at the time we can change things, for the better, in the long run.

If hunting will survive then only by honest and responsible self regulation. It seems to me that at times hunters and outfitters are hunting worst (own) enemy’s. and not the anti hunting groups. We are the ones which should have expose the canned lion “hunting”, expose the put and take shooting farms, etc and the hunters (Clients) should expose and spit on people which shoot these canned lions and these record trophies cornered on the fence on the next hunting show or convention! People like this insulting every hunter by calling themselves hunter! As hunters we have to distance us from these killers.

Then let the antis attack the killers or whatever there want to call them, after all we are HUNTER’S, and got nothing to do with this disgusting bunch and would have our house in order?

I still believe ethical hunters and outfitters are out there in the majority lets start cleaning our house! Attack is the best form of defence!

I ask myself often is it worth the trouble then I look at my and other peoples kids, off course is worth it!

We hunters can not depend an organisation such as safari club or phasa to clean up the house. Yes their attempt it on occasions???? In the end only the client can clean it up by not giving their money to the scum.

To “our concession”:

Maybe I am splitting hairs but I would fell better as a client if I know exactly on which property I am hunting. I know you making it quit clear that you do not have a concession to your clients and this is the correct way. But believe me I got hold of a brochure distributed by an outfitter showing my camp on the front page as his camp never mind the people pretending to own my concession in their advertising?? Is just not funny. Any thing from silly to criminal I came across in this regard over the years.

To get to the bottom of who is holding the lease is easy in Mozambique use the phone numbers provided in my previous post! Subleasing is only legal if authorised by the minister in writing!

I know of a case where a RSA outfitter sold shares to clients in a concession in Mozambique which did not belonged to him. In fact he owned nothing in Mozambique. All this could have been avoided by a phone call. This is actually a very bad story because Mozambique offers very secure and affordable long-term investment opportunities in game farms and conservation areas if done in the correct and sensible way.

About myself:

Steve, I am since 1983 in Africa and since 1993 in Mozambique. I hunted for the last 40 years, reload for the last 30 years, fish even longer than both, had hunting dogs (GSP) all my life, got 2 great boys which hopefully will carry on one day soon, permanently under funded , because you outfitter and agents take so much , have to few guns , love bird shooting, and since I got this dammed concession no time to hunt and fish anymore !

Now I spend my time stepping on peoples toes (government, outfitters, professional hunters, conservation organisation, aid organisations NGO’s Bunny huggers, ……..) but I still can look at myself in the mirror without getting sick!
As you can read above I own a concession in Mozambique since 1994 in this days we could still pick the best ones, even so it is more like a very very expenses at time consuming hobby? to me than a business (it was not planed this way).

Any how I seen PH and outfitters come and go in Mozambique. Dealing with government departments and also fighting with them at times I am tolerated by some, respected by others and hated by the rest. Mozambique is as close as you get real Africa and I am privileged and happy to be here.







A man is as good as his word!


--------------------
Time is your treasure use it wisely you can never replace it

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39897
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Be warned ! [Re: freischuetz]
      #35484 - 05/08/05 12:19 PM

"Freischuetz" sent to me this notice which he requested I place on the forums. I posted it on another new thread but in answer to a query re-discovered this thread so am adding it here as well. For members information.





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Be warned ! [Re: NitroX]
      #35490 - 05/08/05 12:41 PM

Articles 68 and 69 of the Mozambique hunting regulations seem to cover this issue.

In reply to:


SECTION VI
Hunting for defence of people and goods

ARTICLE 68

Requirements

1) The following constitute the requirements for the exercise of hunting in defence of people
and goods

a) The existence of an actual or imminent attack by wild animals on persons or goods
b) The impossibility of driving away one or more animals which are persecuting or
attacking people or goods
An imminent attack is considered to be when one or more wild animals are heading for
or have entered property or dwelling areas with strong indications that they may attack
the people and goods existing there

2) For the effect of No. 1 the impossibility to drive away animals is considered to exist when
dealing with dangerous animals, or others which are not dangerous when they will not
move even despite the employment of methods considered to be the norm for driving away
that particular species

3) Goods is taken to mean human life, agriculture, domestic animals, dwellings, vehicles and
other items of economic value or social relevance

4) The hunting referred to in this article is not subject to closed seasons nor to the limitations
and restrictions defined for hunting activities

ARTICLE 69

Competent entities

1) Those competent to carry out the type of hunting referred to above in defence of people and
goods are specialised brigades which should comprise inspectors or other functionaries
from that sector (SPFFB), community agents assisting the inspectors, professional hunters
and community hunters

2) In terms of the previous number those assisting the inspectors, the professional hunters, and
community hunters may, together with the SPFFB request that they are authorised to hunt in defence of people and goods



So Article 68 seems to state what a PAC animal is, and Article 69 seems to state who can hunt the animal. Under Article 69, it states that professional hunters may engage in that hunting, and Article 69 paragraph 2) seems to state that others may assist the PHs in that endeavor.

Freischutz, I am not trying to argue with you. However, the text of the regulations seems to provide an avenue for PAC hunts to occur. Is this a case of vague regulations which the Moz game department is attempting to clear up through the notice that Nitrox posted?

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Be warned ! [Re: shakari]
      #35494 - 05/08/05 02:48 PM

Steve

I think you can use the name of Sandy MacDonald if you want.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Peter_V
.224 member


Reged: 17/06/03
Posts: 14
Loc: southern Africa
Re: Be warned ! [Re: freischuetz]
      #36537 - 26/08/05 05:51 PM

Freischuetz,

Mozambique is indeed a great country with true African hunting experiences to offer. As you clearly know, and as with anywhere else it is ABSOLUTELY important for hunting clients to know who you are dealing with given the sharks in the industry that take unsuspecting and trusting folk for a ride. This certainly seems to be the case with PAC animals and some of the offerings I see fraudulent outfits marketing as "great deals" in Mozambiques on coutada's that they do not own.

With regard to your point: " I know of a case where a RSA outfitter sold shares to clients in a concession in Mozambique which did not belonged to him. In fact he owned nothing in Mozambique". Could this be the notorious Geyer?

Why do I think you may be Tony W of Coutada 14, Sofala?? We are on the same page and I agree wholeheartedly with you.


Regards



--------------------
Peter V

www.africanhuntersguild.com

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