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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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TomN
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Reged: 07/03/10
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Loc: washington
72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle
      #155942 - 10/03/10 05:37 AM


Hi all this is only second post I have been lerking and reading but just joined. I have a 72 cal. double that shoots very low I haven't shot it very munch as I have to get an invite to a club to shoot. I am loading 110 grs. 2f with 715 ball and 10t. patch and a card over powder. it seams to shoot about 10 inches low. left and right seam to be ok about 11/2 to 2 inches apart just very low . Will more powder get the hight right or am I going to have to file the back site lower. I would like to get the load up to about 130gr. for hunting. I am not aposed siteing each barrell with its own site.

Thanks TomN


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beleg2
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: TomN]
      #155944 - 10/03/10 05:55 AM

Hi,
you post:
"am I going to have to file the back site lower."

It is the other way, you have to rise the back sight to get it shoot higher.

Martin


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TomN
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: TomN]
      #155970 - 10/03/10 02:06 PM


I rembered that just a little bit ago I have the back site all the way down and It still very high. I was hopping that a load that got the ball out faster would hit lower on the paper. This is all at 50 yards. TomN


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DarylSModerator
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: TomN]
      #155986 - 10/03/10 04:50 PM

I don't understand - in the first post, the gun is shooting 10" low. In the second post, the gun is shooting very high?

On the Kodiak, you can replace the front sight with about any 3/8" wide dovetail bead sight that is higher to make the gun shoot lower, or lower bead to make the gun shoot higher. Williams and Lyman make rear bead sights.

Conversly, raising the back sight makes the gun shoot higher, lowering the rear sight makes it shoot lower.

Increasing the powder charge can, in some guns, make it shoot lower. This is usually with guns that have very little recoil impulse, like small bores.

With a gun that has 'some' recoil, increasing the powder charge will usually make the gun shoot higher - in muzzleloaders, that is.

Ctg. guns of large calibre (& handguns) and low velocity, usually shoot higher with light loads, lower with heavy loads - when using the same projectile.

I know some people are using much heavier loads in their 12 bore Pedersoli's, but I doubt the maker warrants such loads.

Since the barrels shooting fairly close together, I would not increase the charge, except for hunting, to about 120 to 140 gr. & of course, re-shoot to test point of imact and group sizing with that load. You may find that much powder is about all the recoil that's fun. You adjust the rear sight's height to get the balls centred - or - if the sight will not go high enough, or low enough depending on where it's hitting, replacing the front sight with one higher (lowers POI) or one lower(raises POI) is the next move on your part.

A .715" ball sounds small for such a thin patch. Put another way, the patch sounds too thin to give good accuracy and clean shooting that doesn't require any wiping- at all for an entire day's shooting. When the patch is right, no wiping is necessary.

POI is point of impact.
Here's a short loading video showing the process of loading a .58 cal. Kodiak.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (10/03/10 04:53 PM)


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TomN
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #156028 - 11/03/10 02:17 AM


Daryl thanks I didn't know that it would be so easy to get a new bead site that would fit the gun. I haven't shot this rifle in some time that is why I got cofused with high or low. I doin't get to shoot much as I need to get an invite to shoot at the range that I have been shooting at Not a mumber and no openings yet.Well thanks for the replys.

TomN


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DarylSModerator
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: TomN]
      #156032 - 11/03/10 03:16 AM

Tom - I would check around your State for clubs where you can go any time. I would seek out this information at other black powder web sites. I can suggest one - www.americanlongrifles.com - there is bound to be someone on that forum, under the Shooting Black Powder forum fromthe list. Just go to ALR, click on forum, then from the list, click on the Shooting.
A suggestion about balls and patches. For a good, clean shoting load, add these diameters:
ball diameter + twice the patch thickness = ?
? should be .004" to .010" LARGER than the groove diameter.

Here is a video of my brother loading his .50 Virginia rifle. The ball is .495", the patch .022". so- .495" + .022" + .022" = .539". The bore on this rifle is .500" and it has .016" rifling, so .500" + .016" + .016" = .532"
Therefore .539" - .532" = .007" divided by 2 = .035" compression in each groove. This is not a particularly tight load, but it shoots very well to 50 yards with a light 80gr.2F charge. For superior accuracy at longer ranges to the ability of the rifle, it would probably need a .025" patch for a tight fit, due to the increased pressure of a heavier charge.
I should note, we'de been shooting for about 2 hours before making the video - probably 35 to 40 shots, no wiping at any time. In the .58 double video- I'd fired perhaps 40 shots before making the video. I had to wait until the SKS and AR shooters went home - too much noise, close by. I merely shot targets until then.

Taylor is using a range rod as we were target shooting at the time. When on the trail or hunting, the rifle's rod does the job just as easily.


And here is yet another one,w ith 2 of us loading. We've just finished shooting a 50 shot trail - no wiping, either of us. Ross is shooting a 20 gauge smoothbore, while I'm shooting a .45 rifle. This video starts after we've placed the patch and ball on the muzzle, as we had to re-start due to some language problems.
I'm loading and shooting a .445" ball with a .022" patch. Bore is .450" with .010" rifing depth. There is .0095" compression in the grooves. It also loads easily, due to a nicely smoothed about 60 to 70 degree crown, with no sharp corners- all smoothly radiused with emery.


Here are couple crowns as I described. The crown is the most important aspect in allowing a descently tight patch to be loaded. Too sharp and it will cut the patch or make loading difficult due to rivetting the ball. There are NO factory crowns that are suitable - they are all too sharp as they are cut by a machine which leaves sharp angles. These push the lead. Merely stuffing your thumb into the muzle and rotating it back and forth, with 320 emery cloth or sand paper will smooth the crown to allow easy loading as shown in these videos. I usually wet the emery with WD40 or cutting fluid. Turn the barrel now and then as work progresses, to make certain the crown in even.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (11/03/10 03:52 AM)


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TomN
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #156041 - 11/03/10 04:15 AM


Thanks Daryl I will look into that.

TomN


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DarylSModerator
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: TomN]
      #156086 - 11/03/10 12:35 PM

Here are some crowns on other muzzleloading rifles. They all load easily with very tight combinations. None of them need wiping during an entire day's shooting.




[IMG]

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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TomN
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #156181 - 12/03/10 02:35 AM


Iv'e read your posts on how to cone the barrell but I doin't think that I want to try this just yet. I doin't want to ruen the rifle with a botched job. I will do it sometime just not now thanks TomN


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TomN
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: TomN]
      #156368 - 13/03/10 04:45 PM

I have another ?. Can the wedg pin be to tite in the gun I have to take mine out with a small hamer and flat bar to get it out. could this be why it shoots so high?

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DarylSModerator
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: TomN]
      #156406 - 14/03/10 03:46 AM

The wedge should be tight top to bottom to hold the barrels snug to the forend, but have some slack fore and aft to allow for heat expansion, movement of the barrels.

Guns shoot high or low due to many factors - one is they put sigths on the gun and sell it. No commercial mfgr sights a gun in. Only 'some' custom makers do this.

Having to change the sights on a comercial gun to get it sighted in with the load you are using, is nothing new.

Off centre crowns, ie: more material removed off the bottom than the tops of the muzzles can also throw shots high.

Many American double rifles of the muzzleloading era had the muzzle's filed on the outside to throw shots together when diverging, or filed in the centres to open up those which crossed. There are guns in private collections which show this filing. I am not suggeting you do this- just for your information. It was not done by the mfgr, which was usually Colt, this side of the pond.

The muzzle treatment I do is not "coning". Coning is done with a long tapered reamer, which leave a long gradual taper to the rifling height from the bore diameter to the tops of the lands, extending down as far as 2" into the bores. I have tested coning in several different guns and found coning reduced accuracy in every one of them. In effect, it really was no benefit at all. I have heard some say it improved accuracy. This is possible because: My experiments with coning show these shooters must have had too-sharp a crown to allow using a tight enough ball and patch combination to seal and therefore, once coned, they were able to use a thicker patch or larger ball, and thus accuracy was improved over their original dismal results. However, a properly crowned muzzle is just as easy to load as a coned muzzle- the video's show this, with the added benefit of better accuracy over any coned muzzle.

When I do to the muzzles, allows tight, bore sealing loads to be used. Failure to do this, results in having to use a combination that will not seal the bore, therefore, fouling builds up shot to shot and you have to wipe the bore evdry shot or too damn often, anyway. Due to the buildup of fouling the bore never remains consistant. In ML shooting consistancy is 50% of your accuracy. Shooting a load that fouls makes the bore ever changing and therefore accuracy is degraded due to inconstancy of the fouling in the bore. As you load the next, you clean the prior shot's fouling from the bore, pushing it down on top of the powder. This happens the same every shot and thus, accuracy is assured - if the load is right for that bore, of course.

Some people are resistant to 'fix' their muzzles and thus they put up with having to wipe the bore often due to the fouling buildup. It's your choice - but please, don't complain about poor accuracy or fouling problems or having to wipe the bore due to fouling buildup. The 'fix' is easily accomplished by anyone with a strip of emery cloth and a thumb. Wrapping the emery cloth around a tapered dowel is also a method that works and one I use to get the initial angles right on a larger bore, as in the .69 pictured. I finish the job with 320,m then Crocus cloth for the final polish. The last 2 groups this rifle shot(last summer) were: at 100 meters 1.3" for 5 shot group, and at 200 yards, 6 shot group of 1 1/4" wide X 3 1/2" high - both open sights, off the bench, single bag up front. This should show that minor inconsistancies in my thumb and methods seem to have little impact on the gun's shooting abilities. There are many modern rifles won't do this well - with a scope sight.

One thing to look for, is each barrel of your gun should shoot at most, a 1" to 1 1/2" group for 5 shots at 50 yards off the bags. Large bores easily meet this accuracy & large bores are the easiest to get this accuracy from. they are more forgiving of minor inconsistancies. If the gun does not deliver this accuracy with any load, more load development and/or a muzzle re-crown is in order. The 50th shot should have loaded as easily as the first - no wiping at any time.

The more accurate the gun will shoot off the bags, the more accurate you will be able to shoot it from any position when hunting or target shooting.


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TomN
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #156439 - 14/03/10 11:39 AM

Thanks Daryl S. I will try that I guess if it doin't work I can take it to a smith and get the muzzle recut.

TomN


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DarylSModerator
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: TomN]
      #156441 - 14/03/10 12:07 PM

Re-crowning never needs to be re-cut, unless you wear the muzzle out with a fiberglass rod.
Take your time, use a tapered dowel or even a tpered grinding stone (the type with a shaft for an electric drill) wrapp some emery around it and twist it in the muzzle with your fingers, back and forth, turning the barrel every now and then - then do the other barrel, then finish with the same emery pusing it in with the end of your thumb - rotating the emery and rotating the gun now and then. I poke a piece of cleaning material into the bore to stop the grindings while re-doing a crown.

The whole idea of the crown is to allow the muzzle to swage the ball and patch down to groove diameter without cutting the patch. If the crown isn't quite even, out a thousanth or so, the escaping gas will be on the same side, escaping exactly the same way each time. This consistancy will provide accuracy that is virtually unchanged from a perfect muzzle, as if done on a lathe, then polished by hand. That is how we do new single barrels that aren't breeched with long tangs.
The picture should show the process - easily done perfectly.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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TomN
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #157409 - 25/03/10 11:48 AM

Went to the range today and shot my .72 I will have to get the muzzle done or do it myself as I berued my plam trying to load with .715 and a .10 thou. patch I also will be trying some .710 and .15 patches mabe that will work. The right barrel is about 3 to 4 inckes high and the left is crossing to the right about 3 to 31/2 inches. this with a 715 ball and .10 patch. I could only find two or three of them and they didn't look all that good. I think that they are being cut on loading. they are very tight all the way down. Each barrel is shooting good but not together at all. How dose one load to uncross or cross the barrels? load was 90 grains of 2f black and above ball and patch. Oh the left barrel is right on highth. but to the right.


Thanks TomN


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DarylSModerator
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: TomN]
      #157456 - 26/03/10 01:13 AM

If you want to shoot hard lead, you'll need a smaller mould- say a .710" or even a .700" & much thicker patch. You have to have enough patch to go to the bottom of the grooves - or the fouling will build up and you'll have to wipe the bore clean just to load it. If you have to wipe the bore at any time while shooting, say 50 shots, the patch is too thin, and perhaps you're not using enough lube or the proper lube. .010" patches are not even thick enough to use for cleaning, unless tripled. Too - they don't hold enough lube and they cannot seal to the bottom of the grooves.

The Pedersoli 'should' have a .730" bore with about .008" rifling - just a guess. Even if the bore is a tight .725", the .715" ball, in pure lead is still easy to load with a .022" patch - if the rifle has a good crown.

Using a ball that is only .005" smaller than the bore plus a .022" denim patch is normal loading for rifle for most of the guys I shoot with - every week. The reason they don't use a ball .010" smaller is that the smaller ball is less accurate.

My 14 bore, a true .690" bore, with .012" rifling depth, uses a .684" ball and .030" patch. It also shoots between 1" and 1.5" at 100 meters, and under 2 moa at the 200 yard traget butt - both off the bags, of course. 5 shot groups, not 1 to 3 like many guys shoot.

This is how each barrel of your gun should be able to shoot.

Making the decision to re-crown the gun is a good one & should make a big difference in your ability to load it.

It's an easy job and only takes a few minutes. It's just about impossible to screw up, if using your thumb. Using tools to do it is when things get out of line. Make certain you turn the gun every now and then to keep the process even, is all.

Mine was shooting right high and crossing 1" @ 50 yds. Going to a heavier patch, 100gr. to 110gr. 2f GOEX put them side by side, not perfectly, but into a slightly flattened, roundish group that I can certainly live with. More powder, without going to a heavier patch merely made them shoot closer together, but did not do anything about the vertical dispersion. Changing from a .018" to .0215" patch fixed the vertial dispersion I had. It is no more difficult loading in my double than the thinner patch.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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TomN
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #157466 - 26/03/10 03:37 AM

Thanks Daryl I will do the muzzle I had the balls miked and they seam to be reather large .720 and .725 and not very round they arn't hard as they were deforming when I was loading them so that could be part of the problum. Grops from each barrel were not bad mabe 1 to 11/2 inch centers just left was low and to the right. I think I will use the mold that I have .715 and see if that one will make batter balls than I have been buying. Thanks for all your help.

TomN


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DarylSModerator
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: TomN]
      #157494 - 26/03/10 11:01 AM

There had to be something wrong - a .715 + .010" patch is not tight in a 12 bore, even if the bore was a tight .725". As a matter of fact, a .715" with .010" patch, barely impresses, only .005" per side, on a .725" bore.
Thanks for measuring.

What range? How many shots per group? 1" to 1 1/2" is very good for 50 yards. At 25 yards, 1/2" to 1 1/2" (on centres) is to be expected, even from a good smoothbore. 50 yards minimum seems to be necessary to allow different loads and loading techniques to show up on paper.

Here is the last target I shot at 28 yards(25 meters) with my 20 bore, smoothbore having .005" choke.(Imp. Cyl) I used a .595" ball with a .022" 'matress ticking' patch & 82gr. GOEX 2F. i don't know why I pulled a shot low, but without a rear sight, anything is bound to and can happen.


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TomN
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #157564 - 27/03/10 02:13 AM

Daryl The range was 50 yards. I had one group that I was very plesed with but I can't sean to repeat it that one had 4 rights and 4 lefts inside a 5 inch group at 50 yards left and right was right on but it was 6 to 8 inchs high. That was the same balls and patchs with 100 2f with card wad over powder I though that I had found the load but it hasn't shot like that sence. also got the letter this week that I have gotten back into the gun club here so I will be able to shoot as much as I like. Thank TomN

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DarylSModerator
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Re: 72 cal. Kodiak Double rifle [Re: TomN]
      #157566 - 27/03/10 02:40 AM

Tom - good that you now have a range to use whenever you are able to go and shoot.

Sometimes a card between the powder and patched ball will protect the ball enough that a loose combination will shoot OK. In my guns, putting anything between ball and powder, other that the ball's patch, has hurt accuracy. My 14 bore rifle is least effected, but it does lose accuracy if a wad is used. When hunting, I use a very thin wad, like a shotgun's overshot wad to protect the powder from lube. This works.
Unfortunately, a wad thick enough to protect a loose patch from the powder flame and pressure, will also wipe out most of the lube deposited in the bore by the patch, and the gun will foul badly.
The patch has to be thick enough to carry enough lube to do it's job - to soften the fouling deposited in the bore by that shot, so that when the next one is loaded, it goes down easily as it pushes that fouling down onto the powder, and wets the bore again to lubricate that ball's flight.

When you load the next shot, you are actually cleaning the last one. This is why it is imperative that the patch go to the bottom of the grooves, with some compression. It deposits moisture - ie: water based as when target shooting, or an animal or vegetable oil when hunting, onto the bore, which softens the fouling of that shot. It also has to be thick enough to wipe the fouling from the previous shot, down to an almost clean bore - otherwise, the fouling will build up and become impossible to load, requiring wiping out.
We (all of us) shoot the entire day, 50 to 80 shots with never having to wipe the bore. The gun loads as easily for the last shot as it did for the first in the spotlessly clean bore. The accuracy does not change, all day as the bore remains in the same condition - no fouling buildup at all, except in the chamber area, where the patched ball does not touch. This minimal buildup in that area does not hurt accuracy. By the end of the day, the rod will refuse to go down as far, by about 1/4" in a .45 or .50. That is no consequence, as the powder charge now occupies more length of bore - no problem.
When we clean our rifles or smoothbores at the end of the day in a pail or bucket of water (I use a 3 pound coffee can), the water barely turns only greyish - not black and scungy and aside from the taste, would be probably be quite drinkable.
Just cleaning off the flintlock's cock and pan colours the same water more than the smae aount of water used in cleaning the barrel.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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