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mauserand9mm
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cast loads in 458WM
      #155711 - 07/03/10 09:00 PM

I've bought some 405gn Hawkesbury Blackhawks in 458 for some cheap(er) shooting. These are a coated hardcast lead projectile (no gas check). I haven't found a great deal of info on them but I think I have to keep the velocities below say 1800fps. These projectiles are meant for 45/70.

I use ADI powders. Today I tried using a reduced load of AR2206H - bad idea. First shot a hangfire, second a misfire with the bullet stuck in the start of the rifling (and powder throughout the action and magazine when I opened the action). Because I don't live far from the range, I went home and came back with some reduced loads using AR2205 and a filler (cotton ball material) - I use this powder for cat bullets in my 375H&H. First two shots good. Third shot a misfire, stuck bullet etc but at least the filler stopped the powder from spilling everywhere.

A guy at the range suggested I use magnum primers and AR2207, said there is a difference in how easy the powders will light up and stay lit - AR2206H and AR2205 goes out easy if it has room to get blown around the case (I must add there was evidence of some burning by the change in colour and bunching together of the granules for the misfires). I didn't realise that this quality existing with the different powders since it is not spoken about, but this guy has lots of cast load development experience and has seen all the things that go wrong.

I checked the ADI website but AR2207 loads start at 2000fps and Trailboss will only do around 1000fps - I'm looking for the gap in between. (I know another guy that uses Westcasting 405 projectiles in his 458Lott but these are rated to 2100fps. I don't remember his load - I'll check the next time I see him.)

Do I get rid of these projectiles and buy the Westcastings, or does someone have a load out there that will do what I'm after.

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Tatume
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #155715 - 07/03/10 11:01 PM

I'm afraid I can't help you with the AR-series powders, but don't give up. The 458 Win Mag can be loaded with 405 gr cast bullets quite nicely. I use IMR 3031 and 4198 with standard primers for loads around 1800 fps. For even lighter loads, I've used Alliant 2400 to get 1400 fps.

Look on a burn-rate chart for powders in this range.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: Tatume]
      #155768 - 08/03/10 10:30 AM

Alliant 2400 is a bit quicker than AR2205 and IMR4198 is supposed to be equivalent to AR2207. AR2206H is equivalent to IMR4895 (too slow for a reduced load - no suprise that didn't work). The AR2205 did suprise me though - I used 35gns and this is not entirely out of the ballpark, I thought (although this may be more true for bottleneck cases rather than straight cases, which apparantly is a different kettle of fish for reduced loads).

With the usual cautions for load information (no liabilities for loads given), can you tell me how much you load for the powders you mention? Do you use fillers for any of these loads?

Edited by mauserand9mm (08/03/10 10:50 AM)

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450_Ackley
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #155772 - 08/03/10 02:22 PM

I had a look through my loading book for the loads I used in my 458 when I had it, I used the following loads.

All in winchester brass and Winchester LR (standard) primers.

30 grains of Alliant 2400 and a 400 grain RCBS cast bullet gave me 1450 fps.

45 grains of AR 2205, same 400 RCBS = 1675 fps.

48 grains of AR 2207, same 400 RCBS = 1625 fps.

I don't use filler of any sort with any cast bullet load.

DC

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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #155774 - 08/03/10 03:25 PM

I used H4895 with loads to 2,200fps using cast bullets of 505gr. in my .458 Alaskan - virtualy identical case capacity to the .458Win Mag.

From 1,800fps (where I started) on up, it held MOA at 100 meters using the Lee 500gr. GC bullet from straight Wheel Weights with Lyman moly lube - no leading at all.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #155777 - 08/03/10 06:07 PM

450 Ackley,

Maybe I was just outside the ball park - sounds like I was too light on with the AR2205. I'll bump the loads up and will probably switch to AR2207 anyway (I like to try and fill the case up). Do you recall how low a charge you went with AR2205 and the 400 grainers?

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450_Ackley
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #155784 - 08/03/10 08:44 PM

Went down as far as 25 grains of AR 2205, lots of sooty, greasy cases (which I hate), and a pretty low velocity with it, about 1250 fps from memory.
I've found that with the cast bullet loads I have worked with, a fast/medium powder works better than the slower powders, as they tend to reach a higher peak pressure quicker, which seems to seal off the cases much better.
Most of my cast loads in all calibres run from about 1400 fps to 2000 fps, seems I can usually manage to get a load that shoots within that range somewhere, nearly always around the 1600 fps mark.

DC

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Tatume
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #155787 - 08/03/10 11:35 PM

Quote:

With the usual cautions for load information (no liabilities for loads given), can you tell me how much you load for the powders you mention? Do you use fillers for any of these loads?



PM sent

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: Tatume]
      #155840 - 09/03/10 11:31 AM

Tatume, PM received - thanks for the info.

Now I'm confused - Tatume's info and 450 Ackley's last response indicate that my AR2205 loads (AR2205 is a little bit slower than 2400) were ballpark and should have at least gone bang every time, albeit running a bit on the "rich" side with soot and grease. So I don't need magnum primers or fillers but do I need to crimp the projectile in place? I haven't been doing this.

I've used cast in 308 and 375H&H and have never crimped those (and without issues).

(I re-read my original post last night and discovered an error "...I use this powder for cat bullets in my 375H&H." I meant "cast" but I guess "cat" is probably okay too.)

Edited by mauserand9mm (09/03/10 01:57 PM)

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450_Ackley
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #155854 - 09/03/10 04:28 PM

I find crimping cast bullets very detrimental to accuracy, but can also understand if your rifle doesn't want to feed smoothly, that you might need to, to stop it pushing the projectile back into the case.
These loads will not generate the recoil to push them back into the case.

DC

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Tatume
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #155924 - 09/03/10 11:12 PM

The crimp in a straight-sided case serves two purposes. One is to prevent bullet migration, either due to recoil (outward movement, as in revolvers), or magazine pressure (inward movement, as in tubular-magazine lever action rifles). My 458 Win Mag is a Ruger #1, so I have no concerns about migration.

The second purpose is to increase bullet pull, so as to ensure proper combustion. If insufficient pressure builds in the case, combustion will be incomplete. The shoulder of a bottle-necked case provides this function. In a straight-sided case the increased bullet pull caused by the crimp raises pressure long enough to aid combustion. This is easily observed with slow powders. With the same load, but with and without crimp, a considerable difference in muzzle velocity can be measured. With faster burning powders the effect is less obvious, but present.

The only accuracy deficit I have observed that may be attributed to the crimp involves an improper crimp. If the bullet seating die is adjusted to seat and crimp at the same time, shaving occurs. I have seen this with cast and jacketed bullets. This is detrimental to accuracy, markedly so. The crimp should be applied in a separate operation, either with a special-purpose die or by readjusting the seating die.

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Take care, Tom
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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: Tatume]
      #155937 - 10/03/10 03:26 AM

A separate Lee factory crimp die eliminates many crimping problems with normal constriction crimping down by many seating dies.
An added feature of the Lee dies, is the ability to crimp where no crimp groove is present, even on jacketed bullets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_Ackley
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #155953 - 10/03/10 07:38 AM

Might be a phenomenon with 2400 possibly, not being a pistol/revolver shooter myself at all, I have no experience with them, but I do believe the shooters that load 2400 in calibres such as 44 mag have to crimp for proper ignition.
Maybe it's hard(er) to ignite?
DC

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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #155965 - 10/03/10 11:52 AM

I've been using an expander (came with the 3 die RCBS set) to open up the case mouth just enough to allow the base of the projectile to fit in to avoid any lead shaving issues. I have not been applying the roll crimp (? form the same RCBS die set) after seating the projectile - it is still a firm fit.

My CZ has a long throat, so maybe without the crimp, the primer discharge is enough to expand the powder space (until the projectile gets stuck in the start of rifling) so that the powder is blown around in this space and prevented from igniting, or blown out?

Trouble with this theory is that my filler load with AR2205 gave me the stuck projectile but the filler and powder stayed where they were! When I pulled the filler out (it was partially stuck to the inside case wall by a small compressed mass of powder) most of the powder was as good as new. There was a small mass of compressed powder that was yellow in colour – I presume it looked like this from the primer flame ie partial burning.

So, in this case, if the powder ignition was disrupted by physical displacement, it must have been a pressure wave that stopped it but pushed the projectile into the rifling (sort of along the lines of what Tatume wrote but powder will burn under normal air pressure so it must have been a sudden change in pressure, or transient wave, that blew it out). I was thinking that a crimp may offer enough resistance to let the primer flame do its job before the projectile starts on its way.

This is making me think too much. I just wanted to shoot cheap reduced loads.

Okay, I’ll increase the load with AR2205, get rid of the filler (I’ve now also heard horror stories of fillers causing rings in pistol-cartridge rifle chambers) and add a bit of a crimp. I’ll likely also use magnum primers. And then if these projectiles lead the barrel, I’ll change to Westcastings.

I’m not keen on casting my own. I have cast before and I don’t get any enjoyment out of it – also pushed more for time these days.

Edited by mauserand9mm (10/03/10 12:00 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #155967 - 10/03/10 12:25 PM

I got away from using pistol and shotgun powders for cast bullet rifle loads many years ago.

I'd tried a load straight out of a book for the Trapdoor Springfield .45/70, in my .458 2" and achieved a pressure excursion with it. I had loaded only 5 rounds and pulled the remaining 4 after firing that 1st one. Absolutely no chance it was a double charge, either - I double checked each one, first visually, then with a 3/8" dowel. I didn't use a filler, either. No hard done, but the report was rather sharp and the primer pocket was expanded. How that can happen with around 25gr. (which is actually a .44 mag load) of powder, I don't know. Detonation?

Anyway - I switched to rifle powders that allowed much higher speeds at reduced pressure with good accuracy. H4895 became my favourite as I seems to work well right down to about 50% of capacity with better accuracy than IMR 3031 & 4198. H4198 developed pressure that required heat treated bullets at 2,000fps, whereas H4895 worked well with straight WW metal.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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86thecat
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #155989 - 10/03/10 05:18 PM

The 458 WM has a long throat, but also a wide funnel shaped throat. Primer pressure could be slipping around the bullet as it leaves the case, stopping ignition. There was a thread over on AR quite a while back discussing the difference between the WM and Lott throats, and IIRC the throat started about 10 thou larger diameter than the bullet. A throat cut with a fresh reamer could be looser than one cut with a reamer worn to minimum dimension. A good crimp and hot primers, as suggested, might help.


In reference to the WM and Lott CIP spec throats-
Quote:

Only two dimensions are needed to describe the throat fully, (edited for clarity)

1. 0.4693" (11.91 mm) wide just above the case mouth, right where the 45-degree taper down from neck diameter ends. BTW, end of neck chamber diameter is 0.4831" (12.27 mm).

2. 0-degree 29' 30" leade angle.

Wide and long, leade-only, sloppy funnel throat.



and-
Quote:

The reason for the question relates to using reduced loads with lighter bullets such as 300-350 grains. The very long free bore in the 458 Winchester frequently causes hang fires. No problem with shotgun flake type powders but with normal rifle type powders.


From this thread-
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/9201027511?r=9201027511#9201027511


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Tatume
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #156024 - 11/03/10 12:24 AM

Quote:

and add a bit of a crimp.



Don't be shy about the crimp. A firm crimp is needed. Too little will be unsatisfactory.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: Tatume]
      #156089 - 11/03/10 12:40 PM

Getting good ignition with straight cases is what led John Buhmiller to experiment with double primers, that is, one primer in the primer pocket, as normal, and another beneath the bullet. This works as I've tested it myself, and it allows a reduction in powder charge of around 5gr. for identical ballistics. It is not something to experiment with unless you are well healed in loading and understand completely what you are up to.

Any load development must start with low pressure loads and build from there - with exactly the same components all the way through the testing. Changing components willy/nilly is what blows guns up and injures shooters and bystanders.

Be careful out there.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #156118 - 11/03/10 04:39 PM

mauserand9mm

I have been shooting 405 grn cast bullets in my 458 mauser with 36grns ADI 2205 Winchester cases and Rem 9 1/2 mag primer and a factory crimp with good success. This is a noce gentle load to hunt or practice with and cheap. The only difference is I fit a gas check to the Hawksbury bevel base bullet. This has improve accuracy. I sit the bullet in the gas check and give it a tap with a soft hammer, I then run it through a .458 sizing die which crimps the the GC on. Reduce leading. I have used these projectiles with 52 grains of 2207 with success. The factory crimp dies does make a difference, cleaner burning and more consistant results.

--------------------
The worst days shooting and hunting is better than the best day at work

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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: 450]
      #156160 - 11/03/10 10:19 PM

Wow - got lots of data now and will work out a few things to try. Been reloading for 23 years now without drama. Not much experience with cast projectiles in rifle cartridges and never in straight case rifle cartridges. Certainly good to learn something new.

450, does the factory crimp distort the lead projectile at all?

86thecat, interesting article. I think MacD37 was wrong about the hangfire though - I am sure that the bullet would already have moved and I suspect it would already be jammed at the start of the rifling when it finally ignited. A primer alone will do this and it will otherwise feel and sound like a dud round.

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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #156175 - 12/03/10 01:49 AM

Mauser - not sure about that - moving the bullet forward in a .458, along with the powder charge, to where the bullet lodges in the throat while ignition pauses, might be a chore for a primer - any primer.

This does happen in the .22 Hornet, though, and is why a lot of Hornet's give better accuracy with pistol primers. The 'softer' impluse is more prone to leave the bulelt in the case. With Hornet's, it isn't a case of poor igntion, it's a case of the primer being too violent for the thin case's hold on the bullet, and the lightweight charge not being enough to absorb the impact of the primer's ignition. In the Hornet, we reduced SD's to the teens, and improved accuracy 3 fold, just by using the Lee Crimp die. My CZ Hornet is now among the most accurate rifle's I've shot - frequently turning in 1/4", 5 shot groups at 100 meters. the pimers and priming did the trick. With the .458's I've used, a CCI250, Rem 9 1/2 Mag or Fed 215 primers have all given good results with jacketed and cast - along with crimping. the stronger powders are needed with the slower powders, not so with pistol or shotgun powders and may be detrimental with the fast, easy to ignite powders.

With the big straight and lightly necked cases, there is a lot of room & if not filled when using hard to ignite powders, the primer's force can push the powder to the front of the case, packing it against the bullet, where it sits until the ignition manifests itself, thus the hangfire. I seriously doubt the primer can move a heavy bullet from it's seat in the front of the case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #156255 - 12/03/10 11:29 AM

Yes you could be right, but I've seen a stuck projectile in a 9mm semi-auto pistol - primer only, no powder. Took a suprisingly decent whack on the "ram rod" to knock it back out. 9mm is a reasonable bore size considering also that it was only a small pistol primer that did this.

I'll try it in the 458 when I get home tonight. I have to pull apart 16 remaining cast reloads anyway (for powder and load adjustment) and will try one with primer only and see what happens. This will be without crimp, as per the other reloads I tried.

Maybe the last one that got stuck at the range did burn some of the powder - the change in colour and bunching may have been caused by the heat of some of the powder igniting perhaps?

Edited by mauserand9mm (12/03/10 11:36 AM)

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450
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #156272 - 12/03/10 04:56 PM

Mauser.

No damage is caused to the cast bullet by crimping as ther is a groove on the bullet to be crimped into. The other thing I did find was that the blue wax lube left in the barrel appeared to effect the accuracy for 5-7 rounds when i went back to full power jacketted loads. This happended even after I cleaned the barrel. With the normal lube like alox or other grease lubes there is no problem. 22 grains of Trail boss is a real pussy load, but it still hurts pigs big time.

--------------------
The worst days shooting and hunting is better than the best day at work

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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #156317 - 13/03/10 04:00 AM

Quote:

Yes you could be right, but I've seen a stuck projectile in a 9mm semi-auto pistol - primer only, no powder. Took a suprisingly decent whack on the "ram rod" to knock it back out. 9mm is a reasonable bore size considering also that it was only a small pistol primer that did this.

I'll try it in the 458 when I get home tonight. I have to pull apart 16 remaining cast reloads anyway (for powder and load adjustment) and will try one with primer only and see what happens. This will be without crimp, as per the other reloads I tried.

Maybe the last one that got stuck at the range did burn some of the powder - the change in colour and bunching may have been caused by the heat of some of the powder igniting perhaps?



Sticking a bullet into the throat with only a primer might be different than having the same thing happen with a big rifle case full of powder. The powder, due to it's compressibility, aborbs the energy of the primer and the bullet stays in the throat. I recall having a .458 2" without powder, fire of the primer without moving the bullet. I always used a heavy roll crimp with that rifle, which may have contributed considerably to the bullet not moving.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tatume
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #156339 - 13/03/10 06:45 AM

On the other hand, I have had several instances of 454 Casull ammo sticking the bullet and powder in the barrel. The AA#9 and WC820 powders were fused into a clump that usually came out intact when the bullet was pushed free. The problem was insufficient powder in the case. Once charges were increased sufficiently, the difficulty never recurred.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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