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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: Tatume]
      #156466 - 14/03/10 08:43 PM

Okay, reloading last night and at the range today.

I loaded 14rnds with Winchester cases, CCI magnum primers, 42 grains AR2205, no filler, 405gn Hawkesbury River (no GC) seated to the crimping groove and crimped.

All loads went bang. Couldn't seem to hit the target at 100 yards - shooting very high. Moved target back to 50 yards. Out of four shots, two hit the target and both were 100% sideways. Guy next to me had a chrono and he put 3 of my loads across it (in my rifle of course) - 1740fps, 1820fps and 1680fps, or there abouts.

Advice was that I should try seating the projectile further out - the first lot I tried last week, and the ones that went bang and hit the target, went through pointing the right way and left a round hole.

I got home and it was obvious that the Hawkesburys were not meant to go this fast. I did my normal cleaning routine (less the Sweets copper solvent) but haven't got all the lead out of the bore yet - close, but I'll need another session. The patches were black and had slivers of lead on them.

Trailboss was recommended to me and I'm waiting on another guy to donate a small amount to me before I proceed.


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eagle27
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #156467 - 14/03/10 09:09 PM

I load cast in my 404 but never got good results with the 400 grainers plain base I cast and tried with various powders. Would not key hole but just would not group at all except with a low charge of slow powder which gave the odd hangfire unless packed with filler. Got hold of some 350 grainers with gas checks from another 404 owner and these performed superbly with AR2209. Turned a shoulder on the base of my own cast 400 grainers and fitted gas checks and yippee similar fantastic results using the same load. Without gas checks I noticed some lead splattering on the neck of the case.
I believe you will have much better luck with gas checked cast bullets in the big bores.


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Tatume
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: eagle27]
      #156470 - 14/03/10 10:57 PM

I've seen bullet seating depth make a small difference in accuracy, but never have I seen a change in depth cause key holing. May I suggest that you measure the diameter of the cast bullets? Ideally, they should be 0.459" or 0.460" for a 458 Win Mag. Any less than 0.458" will explain your key holes.

Another phenomenon I've witnessed is soft bullets causing a buildup of lead in the bore that squeezes bullets to an undersized condition. These will key hole. This can get so bad with some promotional 22 LR ammo (550 rounds per box), that the impacts on the 25-yard target will be difficult to recognize as bullet holes.

Using cast bullets in the 458 Win Mag is a great way to shoot economically, and to practice without developing bad habits. I'm surprised you're having so much trouble. I use the RCBS 45-405-FN mould to cast bullets from wheel weights. I size them 0.459" with LBT Blue Soft lube and Hornady gas checks. They work wonderfully.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: Tatume]
      #156495 - 15/03/10 02:52 AM

Tom's right - bullet size is almost the most important aspect of cast shooting, providing the alloy is up to the task. .458's are very forgiving of alloys as well and even straight WW at Brinel 12 will shoot to around 2,000fps, sometimes faster, given a good lube. Most plain-based bullets of correct size will handle up to 1,700fps.
Ordinary beeswax/vaseline mix will lube WW bullets to 2,000fps with good results using slower powders. Lyman's newer moly lube (not the old graphite lube) and LBT Blue are good for higher speeds.

Gas Check bullets of appropriate hardness and with the correct lube will handle up to in excess of 3,000fps.

I have never hear of keyholes due to seating depth, either.

Like Tom - I have moulds form 300gr. to about 580gr. in around 50 gr. or closer increments. Every bullet weight shoots well from a variety of .458s.

With a large throat diameter, the actual bullet diameter might have to be considerably larger than .459 or even .460". Groove diameter is non critical - if it's the throat causing problems. I've not hear of problems with factory .458 before, though, and a .459" to .460" bullet should work fine.

What is the inside diameter of a fired case's neck? Ideally, with cast bullets fitted to the throat, the cast bullet should be just a push fit into a fired case. You can try things such as teflon tape or paper patching is that is necessary to get a large enough diameter bullet. Do not worry about a larger bulelt increasing pressure - it is low.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #156514 - 15/03/10 09:54 AM

I didn't understand how the seating depth would affect stability either - I would've thought that the projectile would have aligned correctly as it went into the rifling, even if it were slightly crooked initially as the result of a large throat. I wasn't expecting this many problems either and was open to all advice (opinions?). And, after all, there was evidence that those projectiles seated out went through the target straight and there was no evidence of this for the deep seated projectiles - all evidence for these were completely sideways through the target.

The guy that gave me this advice was shooting 45/70 cast loads that were going really well and consistent (1010fps) - he was using Trailboss. He had also set his chrony up what I thought was an unusaul configuration. He didn't have the screens on and it was mounted well below the boreline, probably in line where the screens would have gone - but it worked evrytime.

The projectiles are 0.458/0.4585 as best as I can measure. These are not a gas check style so I'll try Trailboss (should get around 1000fps) and experiment with seating depth. The get caught up in the action if seated right down to the crimping grovve (ala typical CZ fashion for the second last round in the magazine with round nose) but even with only the one round in the magazine. When they were seated out this didn't happen.

I may try the Westcastings (higher velocity rating) and AR2205 again at some stage in the future. I won't be casting my own at this stage (battling for shooting time and reloading time as it is) and will have to rely on "ready rolled" - these are relatively cheap anyway.

Also, I tried a round with the projectile seated out (as per my first attempts), no crimp, no powder and a standard CCI primer (CCI200) andf it drove the projectile easily an inch into the rifling proper! It took a decent effort to knock it back out.

Oh yeah, the guy at the range also had a bullet mold special made in the states for his rifle. He was going on about the seating depth, meplat, bullet diameter etc and said there wasn't a standard mould available that was suitable (he also said the microgroove barrel on his Marlin was 0.460 and, even though molds are listed at this size, they are generally not imported in Australia). There is a website where you can design the mold and they will manufacture for you accordingly, and the cost is reasonable.

Edited by mauserand9mm (15/03/10 10:01 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #156516 - 15/03/10 10:22 AM

Non-gas checked bullets are usually very soft, meant for black powder shooting.

The size is smaller than I like - but they've all done well with .459".

A full case of trailboss should run about 15 to 17gr. The pressure will most likely be up around 30,000psi, but the velocity, below 1,200fps. Trail Boss's presure production is out of line with the velocity it produces, btw.

At that pressure you can easily be driving the bullets to 2,000fps using other powders, which may give better overall results.

You could try putting a .45 cal wad between powder and bullet to take the place of the gas check. I have alsop used plain based bullets, with a gas check seated cup-down on the powder, then the bullet, with perfect high speed results.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9dot3x74R
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #156523 - 15/03/10 12:19 PM


I'm using HRBC .459 405gn projectiles, but I use the "Copper" series which are supposed to tolerate higher velocities. I load up 99gn of AR2209 in my .45-120 giving 2350fps. This is a larger case than the 458wm, so don't try my loads of course. These bullets make nice round holes in the paper targets. I did try some "silver" 350gn from HRBC and they sometimes ended up sideways. Try the "Copper" ones. I use fed215. Also, my .45-120 has a very short "throat", it won't take 500gn Woodleigh for example, so I'm probably close to the lands with these bullets. I'm sure your 458wm is very different in this respect.

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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #156528 - 15/03/10 12:59 PM

It will be a nice result after the wait. I suspect you're a bit fidgity while waiting. I don't think I'd like a 28 day wait for a rifle- nor a handgun. Not happening here - yet.

The short throat on your 3-1/4" chamber probably makes it about the same length as the .458's actual throat.

In comparrison, my .458 2" had a 3/8" leade, which allowed the same overall length as if the case was 2.375" long. this allowed the heavy loads I used, running 500gr. to 2,060 without running into pressure problems.

The same goes for a long leade in a .458 WMag. Seating the bullet out as far as possible will help accuracy and increase case capacity same as if the case was actually longer.

Knowing the actual dimensions of one's chamber is quite important when working up loads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #156537 - 15/03/10 02:10 PM

I'm using the HRBC (Hawkesbury River Bullet Company) Blackhawks (which are actually blue). They are a coated hard cast lead projectile but I haven't seen anything on their website re velocity. As 9dot3x74R wrote, they make a Copperhawk which is rated at 2200fps. All they do is change the coating - no gas checks, no lube. I was hoping that the Blackhawks would be good for 1600fps since they are meant for the 45/70 and this is about their velocity.

Westcasting is another company that also make a coated hard cast projectile (no gas check, no lube). They have a GOLD MATCH HEAVY MAGNUM range that is rated for 2300fps. They also have a GOLD MATCH EXTREME H/V range that can be driven up to 2700fps but these are only available in 0.308 and 8mm. Don't know anyone that has used these.


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450_Ackley
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #156553 - 15/03/10 06:14 PM

The site where you can design your own moulds is www.mountainmolds.com I have quite a few of them, Dan makes them in either brass, iron or aluminium. It's a lot of fun designing what you want and seeing it draw on the screen, good molds as well, but you may have to wait a little while, but it will be worth it.

Re the Trailboss, the formula to use is to fill a case to the level of where the base of the bullet will be seated to with Trailboss, weigh it and repeat at least 5 times for the average, this amount is your MAXIMUM load, the recommended start is 70% of that amount.
It can be used in pretty much every calibre, although velocities can be a bit low, and it can show pressure signs very readily when you get near maximum.

DC


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gwindrider1
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: Tatume]
      #156650 - 16/03/10 12:28 PM

If you can get AA5744 powder, 36 to 38 grns. will give you around 1700 fps. with a 405 grn. cast bullet. No filler is needed but a mag. primer and firm crimp will improve ignition.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: gwindrider1]
      #156844 - 18/03/10 11:44 AM

I can't remember if I posted, but I bought the Lyman reloading manual (#49) on the weekend - that's my second reloading manual in 27 years! I bought it because it has cast loads in it.

It mentions a load using Unique and a 385gn lead projectile in the 458, it doesn't include this powder with the 500gn lead (these are the only two lead projectile weights that it lists for the 458). I'm presuming that this powder will work with the 405gn and I'm sure that I've seen somewhere here someone list a load for it (a quick "google" didn't help much).

AP/AS70 is supposed to have an equivalent burn rate to Unique and I happen to have a quantity of AP70 that I use for my 9mm pistol loads, so it's worth a go. This will help me cycle through the AP70 since I only shoot 50rnds a month in the 9mm and the powder tin otherwise lasts a few years. Wouldn't want it going bad prematurely (just joking - I store it correctly and it'll probably stay "fresh" for decades).

Any recommendations with this powder and projectile?

edit: unfortunately we don't get access to AA5744 powder down here.

Edited by mauserand9mm (18/03/10 11:48 AM)


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450_Ackley
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #156858 - 18/03/10 07:04 PM

Try from 18 to 22 grains of Unique or AP-70N with a 405 grain cast bullet, should give you about 1300-1500 fps roughly.

DC


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450
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #157213 - 23/03/10 08:24 PM

I have used 21 grains of Trail boss with a 405 gas checked bullet which is quite accurate but I have not crono it. I am not fond of that blue wax lube Blackhawk cast bullets have on them. I have found that the conventionally lubed bullet to be more accurate. With a gas check I have used 51 grains of 2207 with a 405 grn bullet without a problem. Reasonably good accuracy.

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: 450]
      #157259 - 24/03/10 07:12 AM

Fill the case with Trail Boss to the level of a cast or jacketed bullet as normally loaded. Dump the powder and weigh it. This is the maximum load for any rifle ctg. 75% of that weight is the starting load.

Beware, it is noted that Trail Boss doesn't like to be compressed. I doubt it is a pressure deal in a bolt gun, most likely an accuracy trait.

For accurate Powder/Puff loads, this stuff is amazing, handgun or rifle, jacketed or cast in rifles or cast in handguns.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #157295 - 24/03/10 01:50 PM

I tried 19gns of AP70 and that was still driving them too fast. I though I had a good load there for a while - I thought the first 4 shots went into a large ragged hole at 50 yards but the first shot went through normally (nice round hole) and the second must have gone through sideways right next to the first. Then the next two? Who knows? I thought the were hitting around the same spot.

(I couldn't tell at the range, since I only had a 7 power scope to use (on another rifle), but when I got home it didn't look like 4 holes right next to each other.)

The remaining 12 rounds that I fired after that were definately going astray, and they made an usual noise (a bit of echo - like firing next to a wall) as they zipped down range.

The bore was absolutely coated in lead - the worst affected area was a few inches in front of the throat. The bronze brush and solvent cleaned it out faster than last time though.

Trailboss is my last hope for these projectiles - velocity should be around 1000fps with a full load. If they still lead up I'll have to get rid of them - possibly melt them down for wheel weights . I can't gas check them but maybe I could add extra lube? They are very hard judging by the lack of damage to the front of the ones that I had to knock back out of the barrel when they got stuck.


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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #157352 - 24/03/10 11:19 PM

1,000fps should shoot with almost pure lead bullets - if the bullets are at least groove diameter & if the alloy matches the pressure being developed.

If they are undersize, smokeless powders won't work worth a damn as they are not fast enough, or hit hard enough to slug the bullet up.

Any alloy harder than pure should work at low velocity - and with the max loading of Trail Boss, the velocity could be up around 1,200fps however - the problem - the pressure will also be up around 30,000PSI, which means you will need Wheel Weight alloy or possibly stronger.
The alloy should match the pressure as that relationship is more important than the speed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #157405 - 25/03/10 09:58 AM

I'm confident that they are hard enough and the right size (the first few will shoot straight until, I think, the barrel leads up) and that a gas check would probably fix the problem at the higher velocities.

Would an undersize projectile (not gas checked) cause barrel leading if the velocity were otherwise within the range appropriate for that particular lead alloy hardness? I guess any gas sneeking past would tend to melt the lead wouldn't it?

There's a lot of info out there - another guy I have spoken to has advised that I steer clear of the conventional pistol powders in the larger rifle cases (especially the straight walled ones) since they do occassionally ring the chamber, even if no filler material is used. Trailboss is different of course since it fills the case - the empty space and faster powders cause the problems. I can understand the dynamics since the same thing can happen if gas is ignited within connected enclosures that don't have appropriate sealing arrangements - the effect is called "pressure piling". The initial explosion will compress the gas at the other end until it do ignites and then sends a pressure wave back to the original expolsion source. "Pinging" is petrol engines is also an example of this.


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eagle27
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #157431 - 25/03/10 05:29 PM

As I said in an earlier post I had no luck when trying to develop an accurate load with 400gr plain base cast bullets in my 404 despite using Lyman #2 lead mix which performed fine in my 7mm. Recovered bullets showed good engraving and where otherwise undamaged but just would not group. Spun a shoulder on the base of some and applied a 44cal gas checked, sized and lubed and loaded up with same charge of AR2209 (4350) that gave clover leaf groups with 350gr GC cast bullets. The GC 400 grainers gave same excellent results. Some rifles may not handle plain based cast bullets. Not hard to gas check plain based cast bullets.

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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: eagle27]
      #157455 - 26/03/10 01:00 AM

Trick with plain based bullets is base protection. I've had good results in straigth cases, but had to use a card wad, or upsidown gas check under the bullet.
In a bottle'necked case, this means the wad will have to be held by the neck of the case. Seating depth requirements might not allow this.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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greenshoots
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: DarylS]
      #157475 - 26/03/10 06:08 AM

75% of that weight is the starting load.

should be 70% as start load

viv


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86thecat
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: greenshoots]
      #157760 - 29/03/10 12:55 PM

My CZ 458WM has never seemed to like light bullets but will shoot MOA with 450gn and heavier jacketed or TSX, so just tried some Oregon Trail True Shot 430gn FPGC .459 diameter cast. Worked up to 66 gn of Varget, crimped with a Lee FC in the first lube groove, 3.015 oal, the gas check is touching the powder. Got groups around 1-3/4 inches with point of impact within 2 inches of my go to 450 TSX load (Lott length) at 100 yards. Haven't chronoed them yet but they are stout, primers show some flattening and no ignition problems. Just what I was looking for, reasonably priced practice loads with POI close enough to leave the scope alone. US $22 for a box of 50 bullets, plus shipping. Only fired about 10 rounds today, but this load looks promising in my rifle.

This load was OK in my rifle but do your own research to be safe.


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mauserand9mm
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: 86thecat]
      #159692 - 29/04/10 08:51 PM

Okay, found the problem. The Hawkesbury River projectiles with 0.458 diameter are too small to work in my CZ. I bought some Westcasting projectiles which are 0.459 dia and tried them at the range today, and they worked. Accuracy wasn't real flash but I can work on that - part of that was due to aiming errors since they shoot a foot high at 50m. I had to aim below the target - should've used a bigger target. I'm going to put a scope on it for next time.

Trailboss loads did about 6 MOA while AR2205 did 5 MOA with 4 of the 5 shots in 2 1/2 MOA. Horizontal dispersion was minimal. Most of the group size was in vertical dispersion thanks to the sighting issues. Anyway I only tried 5 of each, so there is plenty of fine tuning to do. I'll probably stick with the AR2205 since this puts it near the velocity range I am targeting (approx 1700fps).

The pigs had better start getting nervous, these loads are going hunting with me next time.


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DarylS
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #159695 - 29/04/10 10:00 PM

A full case of Trail Boss, loaded to the bottom of a seated bullet, will likely only give around 1,200fps at most.
It does not like to be compressed at all & a slightly reduced load, with tiny bit of airspace beneath the bullet usually gives top accuracy.

The .45 cal. rifle I've tried it in, shoots MOA at 100 meters.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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bonanza
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Re: cast loads in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #159706 - 30/04/10 12:49 AM

I made some sub-sonic loads in my .458WM with Trail Boss and 460 grain lead bullets.

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