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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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doubleriflejack
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conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge guns?
      #155670 - 07/03/10 05:37 AM

Though I have experience with various double rifles, I have next to no experience or knowledge of paradox like guns, and bore (gauge) guns, so I would like to ask a few questions: 1. If a gauge gun, in any gauge, is rifled full length, it is considered a bore or gauge rifle, is it not? If similar gun is rifles only partially at muzzles, it is considered a paradox or similar term used by various makers, correct? In a given gauge, such as 12 ga., are bullet weights heavier for the bore or gauge rifles than for the paradox and similar guns? What is the bullet weight used in the various paradox like guns, in 12 gauge? I saw a lancaster paradox like gun, shooting a 750 gr. bullet, so is that about the average weight for paradox like guns of 12 ga?

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gatsby
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge guns? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #155671 - 07/03/10 07:07 AM

Bore or gauge rifles are simply a rifle whose case and bore are measured in terms of shotgun gauge 20,12,10etc. "Paradox" style guns were designed to shoot both conical ball and shot. They could shoot further and with a heavier conical bullet than a roundball gun and with some choke in the shot patterning. Paradox guns weigh less than a fully rifled gun but only slightly more than a shotgun.
There were a number of systems used by various makers to achieve the balance between bullet stabilization and shot patterning , invisible rifling, oval boring but the most effective was the Fosbury paradox rifled choke system used by Holland and later by most other makers. The standard 12 bore conical would have been about 740grs. The big bore paradoxes are true dangerous game guns and give away nothing but a little recoil when compared to their fully rifled counterparts.

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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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jaz
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge guns? [Re: gatsby]
      #155677 - 07/03/10 09:56 AM

So Gatsby,
"Little recoil" , Will you throw up 3 pair of 8 Bore Paradox rounds with 10 drams??, 2??


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gatsby
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge guns? [Re: jaz]
      #155679 - 07/03/10 10:30 AM

They "give up" nothing to their counterparts save a little recoil.

Besides, I find the 10 dram load to be mildly stimulating and at my age thats a good thing.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinkerModerator
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge guns? [Re: gatsby]
      #155690 - 07/03/10 03:39 PM

So by way of ratios ---


The 12bore ball at .729" dia and 1/10 alloy will weigh 559 grains.
The 12bore paradox conical will weigh 740 grains.

That's a ball/conical weigh ratio of 1/1.324
Put that in your notes.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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calpappas
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: tinker]
      #156654 - 16/03/10 01:16 PM

Gents:
My Paradox moulds cast a bullet weighing:
.840--1250 grains
.875--1360 grains
.970--2150 grains
All shoot well with 10 drams of FFg.
Cheers,
Cal

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Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

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DarylS
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: calpappas]
      #156702 - 17/03/10 01:24 AM

RB's have the advantage in low trajectory, and if properly matched to the gun are capable of excellent accuracy in ctg. guns as well as muzzleloaders.

The develpment of breachloading which allowed guns to shoot hardened conical bullets, gave the conical dangerous game gun a penetration advantage over the hardened round balls used in ML's. Until the advent of breechloaders, hardened round balls ruled as THE dangerous game projectiles, as they out penetrated the soft lead conicals needed for muzzleloading.

I am not certain I would give up the flatter trajectory of a round ball for that slow moving conical, but the conical does allow one to play with 'Forsyth's' 'shells'.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Grenadier
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: DarylS]
      #156729 - 17/03/10 05:49 AM

Quote:


I am not certain I would give up the flatter trajectory of a round ball for that slow moving conical, but the conical does allow one to play with 'Forsyth's' 'shells'.




Not sure how flat a trajectory you are looking for. With the H&H Paradox you can just flip up the 100yd sight and fire away at any thing within 125 yards:



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DarylS
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: Grenadier]
      #156756 - 17/03/10 01:25 PM

Since you brought this up, what are the ballistics you used for that slug? Is it the normal 900fps to 1,050fps of a 3-4 dram loaded 12 bore Paradox?

Even at the figures above, there is 1 1/2" more climb at intermediate ranges than I will allow for my own shooting. Compared the figures below, there's over 2" too much climb, destroying the point blank shooting - for me.

When I ran the figures for the paradox guns I've read about through Seyfried, I see something slightly different.

These figures are for a 12 bore - 10's and 8's have considerably more rise and drop.
30yds. + 3.53": 50 yds. + 4.54": 70 yds. + 3.94": 90 yds. 1.75": on at 100yds: 120 yds. -4.76": 125 yard -6.23 - fine for broadside standing shots - I prefer flatter shooting.

As you can see, there is no point blank range for this rifle at all, where a shot coult be taken at the forehead of a bear of buffalo with any certainty of where the bullet would hit. The point blank, of course is the range where no allowance has to be made.

Each to his own - I acknowledge slugs finally overcame the round ball. As indicated, it was due to being able to use hardened slugs to allow sufficient penetration, which, before hand was inferior to round balls.
The lightweight parodox guns were meant for shot or ball(conical ball), and were not built for the heavier loads that actually gave conicals better results on heavy game than round balls had provided prior to this.
Paradox's are great - would love to have one and to hunt with it, too - but - I would also try it with round balls, just to see if it would regulate at higher speeds with the lighter projectiles. You see, round balls penetrate just fine - "both sides of an elephant's head"(Baker's words) is good enough for me as I relish in their flattness of trajectory over the normal hunting ranges I shoot bears and moose.
With a 100 yard zero, a 12 bore RB would have:
25yards + 1.32": 50 yards +2.29": 75 yards + 1.93": 100 yards 0.0": 125 yards 3.74": 150 yards -9.47": approximately, the 750gr. paradox slug noted above in the table would not overtake the ball's trajectory untill well past any likely range such bores would be shot at - ie: not until the ball strikes the earth due to past maximum range. Indeed, the Round Ball is flatter than the paradox conical at 200 yards by 15.01" and the difference gets greater out until the ball strikes the ground - somewhere around 800yards or so.

Now, increase that Paradox conical's velocity from a normal 1,000fps to 1,400fps and it's a world different and actually beats a round ball past about 140yards for trajectory as they are equal in drop at that range ony. At midrange to 100 yards, the round ball has a very slight advantage in trajectory over the faster stepping slug, and at 140, they are equal.
Of course, at any range, the harder, fast moving slug will penetrate more deeply than a hard round ball, but how much is necessary?
How much does a 750gr. slug moving 1,400fps kick, when propelled by black powder? Can 1,400fps be safely obtained in a 7 1/2 to 8 pound 12 bore Paradox?


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gatsby
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: DarylS]
      #156843 - 18/03/10 10:24 AM

I don't know if I have enough time right now to fully respond to your post.
I believe the chart refers to a "standard" paradox nitro load @ 1050fps at the muzzle. Paradoxes are prooved for various loadings and the weight of the gun is adjusted accordingly (sometimes). There were 28gr,30gr,33gr,36gr,40gr and 47gr cordite loadings in the 12 bore paradox recorded giving muzzle velocities up to 1475fps with a 730gr conical. If the "magic" of the rifled choke paradox is in the barrels, the brilliance and beauty of the gun is its ability to take any game by merely slipping a different cartridge, lead, lead with copper post, capped or shot, into the chamber; feather or fur, quail to buffalo. Is the smooth bore ball gun really that versatile? I don't know just how far a roundball will travel accurately out of a smooth bore barrel but I would guess that accuracy for the ball declines greatly after 100yds. Holland Wembely notes showed the standard 28gr paradox load to still be accurate at 200yds and the capped conical to 300. I have also heard of 600gr conicals being used which would produce trajectories similar to a round ball but I have yet to substantiate it. If so, wouldn’t you be ballistically better off to use the hollow pointed conical? The Maharajas were great sport hunters, and I do not believe they could be bs’ed easily. Yet they trended away from smooth bore guns after the appearance of the paradox. They must have seen some benefit to the rifled choke system.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Grenadier
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: DarylS]
      #156845 - 18/03/10 01:07 PM

Quote:

Even at the figures above, there is 1 1/2" more climb at intermediate ranges than I will allow for my own shooting.




That's fine, use the leaves for the intermediate distances. That's what they're for. As for me, I'm happy with those figures for deer to 100yds and knowing that if I misjudge and shoot a little beyond I'm not too far off. For smaller stuff I generally try to use shot.

Quote:

Now, increase that Paradox conical's velocity from a normal 1,000fps to 1,400fps and it's a world different ....
How much does a 750gr. slug moving 1,400fps kick, when propelled by black powder? Can 1,400fps be safely obtained in a 7 1/2 to 8 pound 12 bore Paradox?





Within 100 yards a lead bullet starting out at 1400fps would only shoot a little flatter. However, it's irrelevant because a 7-1/2 to 8 pound Paradox gun is not made to shoot a 750gr bullet that fast. When I need a rifle I use a rifle.

As mentioned above, the beauty of a Paradox gun is that you can take one gun for a mixed bag and warm up on the clays course in the meantime. It carrys and swings like a fine double shotgun should. I've had mine in Argentina and shot doves and a Peccary. I've used it for sporting clays and skeet. I hunted grouse, pheasant, and chuckar with it. Last year I shot a bobcat and a Blacktail deer with it. This weekend I'll be shooting it at a sporting clays event. Versatility is what a Paradox is about. It is not specialized for any one task yet does many things surprisingly well enough.

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gatsby
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: Grenadier]
      #156855 - 18/03/10 05:25 PM






Within 100 yards a lead bullet starting out at 1400fps would only shoot a little flatter. However, it's irrelevant because a 7-1/2 to 8 pound Paradox gun is not made to shoot a 750gr bullet that fast. When I need a rifle I use a rifle.




Thats not necessarily so.
Leslie Taylor saw the shortcomings of the Holland paradox and cartridge but also its potential. When the Holland patents fell away he introduced his rifled choke version of the Holland gun but designed a higher velocity cartridge topped with a pointed capped flatter shooting bullet to go with it. Now you truely have a shotgun and 100yd plus rifle all in one "the Explora" shooting a 730gr LT bullet at 1250fps. He then introduced the Super magnum Explora gun shooting the LT bullet or a rounded paradox waisted slug at 1500fps for close in dangerous game.
This was not lost on Holland and they in turn offered magnum guns and experimented with various capped bullets. While WR Exploras and Super magnum Exploras loads were standardized, I believe the post 1900 Holland 12's varied to some extent. I have seen guns regulated to various cordite loads that must have also varied the regulated velocity. The weight of these guns were still at 7.5 to 8 lbs or maybe a tad more.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: gatsby]
      #156871 - 19/03/10 01:54 AM

Gatsby - Smoothbores are very short ranged guns. 100 yards is a bit too far for most all smoothbores. I was talking about rifles.
I have shot 545gr. round balls at 1,550fps from a 7 3/4 pound shot gun using black powder as the propellent - 7 drams it took to get that speed. I would under NO circumstances shoot such a load from an antique, let alone one with an elongated bullet of even greater weight. The gun I used took only 2 shots to break the stock into two pieces. After repairing and reinforcing the stock, it absorbed many more of those 'load's, but I quickly dropped to smokeless powder, which kicked about 1/2 as much- or less.
In order to get 1,550fps with black powder and a 730gr. slug, you'd need almost 9 drams. THAT took a very special 12 bore, I think, not a light weight paradox.
I'm fishing here, as I lack the experience with paradox guns, but do have some personal experience with large bore slug and ball ballistics, recoil, and what it takes to get results.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Grenadier
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: DarylS]
      #157189 - 23/03/10 10:25 AM

Quote:


Now you truely have a shotgun and 100yd plus rifle all in one "the Explora" shooting a 730gr LT bullet at 1250fps. He then introduced the Super magnum Explora gun shooting the LT bullet or a rounded paradox waisted slug at 1500fps for close in dangerous game.
This was not lost on Holland and they in turn offered magnum guns and experimented with various capped bullets. While WR Exploras and Super magnum Exploras loads were standardized, I believe the post 1900 Holland 12's varied to some extent. I have seen guns regulated to various cordite loads that must have also varied the regulated velocity. The weight of these guns were still at 7.5 to 8 lbs or maybe a tad more.




When a bullet begins to transition from supersonic to subsonic it becomes unstable and erratic. Accuracy is greatly diminished. A lead Paradox bullet leaving the muzzle at 1250 is going to become subsonic somewhere close to 125 yards. So, yes, the faster bullet will have more kinetic energy within 100 yards but will not be of much practical use far beyond that because of accuracy issues. The cost to getting the big bullets to go that fast is, as you mentioned, a heavier gun. My 1911 'Royal' ejector with a 15" stock weighs 7 pounds, 3 ounces, my 'Royal' non-ejector with a shorter stock is about 7 pounds even. The H&H magnum 'Paradox' guns were advertised as weighing 8 to 8-1/4 pounds and they probably handled accordingly. Whether or not the additional energy is worth having a heavier gun is a matter of preference. The standard Paradox seems capable of taking any thin skinned game and I don't think a 1250fps bullet of soft construction would be a good choice for thick skinned game. With little additional usefulness to be gained from the faster bullet, I would rather retain the 7 pound "bird gun" handling qualities of the standard Nitro-Paradox gun.

The WR Super Magnum Explora bullet is a different story. With a muzzle velocity of 1500fps it wouldn't become subsonic till way out there. That would mean a considerable increase in both energy and effective range. The 1910 H&H catalog lists a Long Range Paradox with similar results. I would imagine that all these guns must have weighed well over 8 pounds but I don't know. I have never seen nor handled one.

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DarylS
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: Grenadier]
      #157256 - 24/03/10 06:37 AM

Interesting, my 200 yard accuracy load for my 14 bore muzzleloader, shooting a .684", 480gr. ball @ 1,400fps, becomes subsonic at about 80 yards. This rifle shoots 1 to 1.4MOA at 100 yards and shoots under 2 MOA at 200 yards - both off a single bag beneath my left hand.

Interesting that the sound barrier means little to this rifle's round balls.

Dropping through the sound barrier is more of an accuracy barrier to long range greatly elongated projectiles, such as match bullets fired from .224's through 8MM's in 1,000 nad father competition shooting.
The very large bullets shot in bore guns are very much less effected, it seems. But then, this is a suposition by me - perhaps the slugs are effected as you suggest.

I know for a fact that properly stabilized round balls aren't.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Grenadier
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: DarylS]
      #157278 - 24/03/10 10:27 AM

A spinning top will go crazy if you lightly touch it. A round ball will not. Like the top, roll pitch and yaw greatly effect a bullet in flight. Your shots were true because your round balls were round balls.

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gatsby
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: Grenadier]
      #157301 - 24/03/10 03:22 PM

When a bullet begins to transition from supersonic to subsonic it becomes unstable and erratic. Accuracy is greatly diminished. A lead Paradox bullet leaving the muzzle at 1250 is going to become subsonic somewhere close to 125 yards. So, yes, the faster bullet will have more kinetic energy within 100 yards but will not be of much practical use far beyond that because of accuracy issues.





I tend to believe as does Daryl that the paradox conicals are not as greatly affected as you might think. Here are the results from Holland testing completed in 1905:



Ross Seyfied wrote in the Spring 2006 DGJ of a killing shot on an elk at 250yds using a 1250fps Explora capped bullet fired from a 71/4lb Explora.





The cost to getting the big bullets to go that fast is, as you mentioned, a heavier gun. My 1911 'Royal' ejector with a 15" stock weighs 7 pounds, 3 ounces, my 'Royal' non-ejector with a shorter stock is about 7 pounds even.

7 pounds is light for a paradox 7.25 pounds or an once or two more is about right. I have a magnum that is under 8 pounds but it has 26” barrels. Is the "Paradox" a birdgun that kills game or borerifle that fires shot?


The H&H magnum 'Paradox' guns were advertised as weighing 8 to 8-1/4 pounds and they probably handled accordingly. Whether or not the additional energy is worth having a heavier gun is a matter of preference. The standard Paradox seems capable of taking any thin skinned game and I don't think a 1250fps bullet of soft construction would be a good choice for thick skinned game.

Your forgetting the beauty of the paradox; matching the ammunition to the intended use.




Westley loaded a heavy slug for use on heavier game animals. The capped bullets and increased velocity were needed to increase the range of the ball and shotgun.

With little additional usefulness to be gained from the faster bullet, I would rather retain the 7 pound "bird gun" handling qualities of the standard Nitro-Paradox gun.


Fosbury saw the benefits and the shortcomings of the smoothbore ball and shotgun. He increased its range patterning and usefulness Leslie Taylor did the same for the Holland Paradoxgun and Holland t followed suit.

The WR Super Magnum Explora bullet is a different story. With a muzzle velocity of 1500fps it wouldn't become subsonic till way out there. That would mean a considerable increase in both energy and effective range. The 1910 H&H catalog lists a Long Range Paradox with similar results. I would imagine that all these guns must have weighed well over 8 pounds but I don't know. I have never seen nor handled one.


They are great guns. Probably less than 100 Westley's made, you need one

Edited by gatsby (24/03/10 03:37 PM)


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Grenadier
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: gatsby]
      #157313 - 24/03/10 06:05 PM

Quote:

I tend to believe as does Daryl that the paradox conicals are not as greatly affected as you might think. Here are the results from Holland testing completed in 1905:



Ross Seyfied wrote in the Spring 2006 DGJ of a killing shot on an elk at 250yds using a 1250fps Explora capped bullet fired from a 71/4lb Explora.




Well you have no argument from me about a few things. First, Paradox guns exist in more than one form firing more than one type of ammo. Some are more like shotguns firing bullets, others are more like rifles firing shot, and some are a pretty even mix. It makes it all interesting and fun. Second, Paradox guns that fired bullets of more than one component were able to reach velocities that made them useful for longer distances. Third, if Mr Seyfreid shot an elk at 250yds with a capped Explora bullet then the gun and cartridge did the job.

However, regarding stability of bullets slowing to the speed of sound, the phenomenon is well documented.

The Transonic Problem

Ballistic Coefficient Variations with Muzzle Velocity near the Speed of Sound

Bullet Stability

Supersonic loads, regardless of alloy do not group as well at 100 yards as slower loads, because they are subjected to transonic buffeting as projectile velocity decays below the speed of sound.

In the 1905 report you cite above it is very simple to see that they are speaking of a bullet that was never supersonic. The Magnum Paradox used charges of 4.5 to 5 drams and the article clearly states that the bullet "started out at a low velocity .22 rimfire speed". Slow moving lead bullets can be extremely accurate, even at long range. No news here.

Regarding "Ross Seyfied wrote in the Spring 2006 DGJ of a killing shot on an elk at 250yds using a 1250fps Explora capped bullet": Surely that bullet had become subsonic and accuracy must have been adversely affected, but an elk is a big animal and apparently things worked out right.

AND... I'd love to have an old Expora or Faunetta.

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gatsby
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: Grenadier]
      #157367 - 25/03/10 02:04 AM

I am not suggesting the effect you site does not exist but it may not be as detrimental as you may think. Here is another 1905 Kynoch test with what would seem to be the 1250fps Explora load which was Hollands magnum loading also.






Maybe not as accurate as the subsonic load but would provide more energy at 200yds.
I also wanted to clarify ; probably less than 100 Westley Richards Super Magnum Exploras made.

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DarylS
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Re: conical bullet weight for paradox like guns, and gauge g [Re: gatsby]
      #157374 - 25/03/10 03:21 AM

That 100 yard target is impressive - about 1.825" wide by 1.1" high, taking the holes are being .730" & working out the ratios. Impressive indeed.

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