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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: 9.3x57]
      #154203 - 19/02/10 01:57 PM

Quote:

And by the way, I put myself in the idiot category in the past. I, too, have spoken out against this or that gun accessory, or whatever, or taken some soft attitude on Federal encroachments.

No longer.

When you dive into the muck of the enviro movement and the anti-gun efforts and see what they are made of, it becomes crystal clear.

Resist the deprivation of rights of your neighbor, fellows, or you will lose the rights YOU favor.

{Remember back a few years when the double-guys were saying, "Oh, so what, it is just a useless SKS...good thing our doubles will be safe!"}

Yeah, right.

{...yes, I am trying to be as abrasive as I can be... }




AMEN--9.3

You are spot on with all you comments. The anti's will NEVER stop--all gun owners, No matter what country you are in, need to get organized and get moving to keep the freedoms you currently have or expand them. WE can NOT permit the divide and conquer mantra any further..

Just read in the local paper today that Finland is also considering stricter handgun laws now because of some shootings over there..REALLY??? The typical goverment knee jerk reaction..take the guns away from the law abiding citizens and the crooks can keep theirs...

Fight every single move against any further restriction on gun ownership...enough is enough..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39419
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: Ripp]
      #154222 - 19/02/10 06:18 PM

OK some info on this issue:

1. Spoke to some of the people having meetings this week.

2. At the National police bureaucrats meeting - whatever it is called - the SA police tried to get a national effort to ban certain chamberings such as the .338 Lapua and a list of similar medium and large calibre long range rifles.

.50 BMG
.416 Barrett
.408 Cheytac
.375 Cheytac
.338 Lapua Magnum

Basically they are targeting the cartridges they regard as long range military cartridges.

3. The other states weren't really interested. I don't know whether WA was in favour or not. They were reported originally to be part of the push.

4. The Police in SA can deny a permit to acquire a firearm without giving any reason.

They can also issue a letter cancelling the registration of an existing firearm, meaning the owner must sell it.

The Police have issued letters to target ranges instructing the ranges that these cartridges may not be used on their ranges. Basically if they are the ranges may be reclassified eg to rimfire ranges etc.

The Police do not accept hunting interstate or overseas as a justification for owning one of the rifles.

The Police regard these rifles as "excessively powerful".

The Police do not like the appearance of sniper, tactical type rifles. Cartridges that are designed to "kill people". Rifles that are of military appearance.

It was pointed out the .303 SMLE is a military rifle and cartridge, but the logic behind the laws is confused. The basic premise behind the logic is "we hate guns".

Reportedly the Minister of Police is supportive of banning guns in general.

5. A comment was made, that an ALTERNATIVE approach the police could make is to BAN any rifle that is "excessively powerful" using a formula of retained energy at a given range. This is a REAL THREAT to most big bore rifles.

My guess is these will be targeted as well in the future using logic like this -

"We have banned the .338 Lapua for being 'excessively powerful', but the .378 Weatherby, .450 NE, .458 Lott etc etc are even MORE powerful. Therefore it is logical we add all of these cartridges to the banned list."

Banning our shooters rights is not done in one fell swoop. It is done by a thousand cuts. By a slowly slowly catchee monkey approach, most shooters, say "it doesn't affect me". Until it does.

6. It should also be noted for our interstate cousins that when one state passes new bans, regulations etc, it is often copied by other states later on. Used as a justification to introduce more bans in their states as well.

So a fight in one state is one that should be shared by all.



The GOOD NEWS is there is a State Election late next month, and we should be making use of it to write letters to the politicians, and visit them in their offices, making sure they are aware of our angst.

The SA Shooters Party will be meeting soon to decide if they are running in the state election and to decide on a candidate. I spoke to the guy whom will most likely be the State candidate this afternoon.

I will post more on this subject in the future and the State election and what help shooters from this site can contribute.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (19/02/10 06:51 PM)

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: NitroX]
      #154226 - 19/02/10 06:32 PM

Yep,

A line that they parrot on "excessive" and "military" that has run in the A/Gens and ministers CoAG wankfest for many years.

FWIW WA is probably the worst as their laws militated against "powerful" cartridges for many decades (from 1920?), thus the trend to use a 45/70 as it was deemed an antique (BP) round.

The construction of laws that deem the police as having powers of discretion is a violation of liberties and common law, a matter that our Pommy cousins have suffered for many years.

The certification of ranges is based on both butts construction and safety templates that allow for "carry". (maximum range; thus the debacle on the Anzac Range at Laper)

In many cases the range is only certified for older military rounds (8mm max) unless using cast lead projies. A further clause allows that if certified as a military range then the (DoD) Inspector Rifle Ranges has to use the DoD safety template.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: NitroX]
      #154235 - 20/02/10 12:14 AM

Quote:

By a slowly slowly catchee monkey approach, most shooters, say "it doesn't affect me". Until it does.



Listen up Aussies.

Even you air rifle and Two-Two types.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: 9.3x57]
      #154237 - 20/02/10 01:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

By a slowly slowly catchee monkey approach, most shooters, say "it doesn't affect me". Until it does.



Listen up Aussies.

Even you air rifle and Two-Two types.



Two-two? Blowpipe?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: 450_366]
      #154238 - 20/02/10 01:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

By a slowly slowly catchee monkey approach, most shooters, say "it doesn't affect me". Until it does.



Listen up Aussies.

Even you air rifle and Two-Two types.



Two-two? Blowpipe?



.22LR

Paper Punchers.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: 9.3x57]
      #154284 - 20/02/10 06:41 PM

Some of these posts are not very helpful.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Empire375
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Reged: 18/08/09
Posts: 239
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: NitroX]
      #154285 - 20/02/10 07:29 PM

The Big Game Rifle Club in Victoria has a Victorian Police firearm licensing officer as a member.
I will attempt to make contact with him on Monday and get the exact info on whats has happened and what is possibly about to happen.
I really believe it will not amount to much.

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Cinghiale
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Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 406
Loc: Northern Territory
Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: Empire375]
      #154286 - 20/02/10 07:51 PM

Once again the apathy of Aussie gun owners is going to be a problem with this one. I think the NT will probably (or did) fight this as there are quite a good number of genuine reasons to keep big cals up there and in QLD for that matter.

I hope that maybe we start pulling our collective finger out and that the largest organised shooting body in Aus, SSAA actually support us and dont go to water like they normally do on big issues!!!!!

MOG

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Loc: Western Australia
Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: Cinghiale]
      #154289 - 20/02/10 08:55 PM

"hope that maybe we start pulling our collective finger out and that the largest organised shooting body in Aus, SSAA actually support us and dont go to water like they normally do on big issues!!!!!"


I totally agree with you,most of these organizations are full of piss and wind when they should stand up and be counted.

Now if we had the US NRA in this country it would be a different ball game!!!!!!!!!!

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: Empire375]
      #154302 - 21/02/10 02:55 AM

Quote:

The Big Game Rifle Club in Victoria has a Victorian Police firearm licensing officer as a member.
I will attempt to make contact with him on Monday and get the exact info on whats has happened and what is possibly about to happen.
I really believe it will not amount to much.



The threat is in SA and possibly WA. At the present at least.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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BigUglyMan
.224 member


Reged: 16/12/07
Posts: 14
Loc: Aklavik, NT
Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: 010166]
      #154323 - 21/02/10 10:53 AM

Take it from a Canadian, the nation of factionalized firearm owners, don't let them divide and conqueor. If you aren't a united group they will take you apart one piece at a time.

--------------------
An elephant is an awesome amount of death.

The Most Northern Member - Double Rifle Shooters Society

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choppa
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Reged: 26/10/03
Posts: 7
Loc: AUS/WA Pilbara
Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: BigUglyMan]
      #154760 - 25/02/10 01:32 PM

I also live in WA and recently added a secound 458 Lott to my licence, had to simply pen a statement saying why I wanted another rifle in the same calibre, it was approved with no fuss.

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mauserand9mm
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Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 1014
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: choppa]
      #154767 - 25/02/10 02:49 PM

Here in Queensland, a 50 BMG rifle (even bolt action) is in the same weapons licence category as machine guns, grenades and rocket launchers (category R) ie hard for the average person to obtain. There is a necked down version of the 50 cal (460?) that can be purchased on a. more conventional, category B weapons licence (centrefire rifles). Once you have one, shooting these rifles requires a range with a long safety template and many ranges around here can't provide this. Ranges have to police approved and safety template is the major factor in the assessment.

I've heard rumours that it will also become difficult here in QLD to purchase a 338Lapua/tactical long range rifle, not so much from being made banned, or shifted to a more restricted licence category, but by the Weapon's Branch assesssing officer denying a Permit To Acquire. Allowing the PTA has always been at the discretion of the assessing officer (this is also true in WA where their equivalent of the PTA is handled by their Firearms Branch). I'm not aware of any such PTA being denied however.

Edited by mauserand9mm (25/02/10 02:54 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39419
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #154769 - 25/02/10 03:12 PM

Not just rumours very real action to "severely restrict" the following:

50 BMG
460 Steyr
408 Cheytac
416 Barrett
375 Cheytac
338 Lap Magnum
5.7x28

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1212
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: NitroX]
      #154774 - 25/02/10 03:37 PM

Thanks Nitrox. Thin edge of the wedge, although the wedge is a lot fatter since John Howard was PM and gutted the LAFO's of Australia. We need a strong National Shooters Party in Australia.

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Empire375
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Reged: 18/08/09
Posts: 239
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: Rockdoc]
      #154775 - 25/02/10 04:27 PM

I have talked to one person who should know (not the guy I stated earlier) and was told there were some "elements" agitating for restrictions but the general consensus was "Why fix something thats not broken?"
Call it wish-full thinking but I don't feel it will gain any traction.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: Empire375]
      #154788 - 25/02/10 05:17 PM

Maybe in Victoria, but in SA there is a real push to "severely restrict" these cartridges and rifles.

Ranges have reportedly been written to by Police informing them that these rifles are not permitted to be used on the ranges.

Police have said justifying these rifles in SA will be hard. And that using a justification of interstate and international hunting will not be allowed.

New rifles and PTAs won't largely be permitted.

And if you already have a rifle in these chamberings, and you can't hunt with it, nor shoot at a club with it, it will also be history. No legal requirement to compensate people for confiscations by the State governments, unlike the Commonwealth Gov't, so if it is confiscated all you will be able to do is try to sell it "somewhere".

As for people "in the know", I have been talking to and corresponding with some of the people whom actually attended the meeting with SA Police last week, so NO, "NOT just rumours."

As for not gaining traction it is already happening.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Empire375
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Posts: 239
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: NitroX]
      #154794 - 25/02/10 06:33 PM


I was told by a fella in the Vic licensing branch that SA had banned the 338 Lapua. Sad that you confirm this.
I always had the impression that when it comes to loony laws Victoria led the way.
I did hear that some ranges don't have the correct "safety template" and I know there are only two ranges in Victoria where a 50Cal can be used (for that reason).

Did the folks at the meetings tell you what the justification for the proposal was ?

I only ordered my 338 Lapua when I heard about SA - I figured this would be my last chance. The Vic licensing branch told me that club members would have no problems. I know its the Thin end of the wedge etc but I see nothing to do but carry on and hope for common sense.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: Empire375]
      #154822 - 26/02/10 01:44 AM

Not banned but difficult to get and perhaps to keep. Justifying it would be the problem.

What was the Police justification?

None that I know of, except they are saying it is not needed for hunting in SA, ie smaller calibres are adequate and they claim no range is allowed to use them. If interstate and international use is also not allowed to be used as a justification it makes it a lot harder.

Some were confiscated but I believe one or two may have been recovered by their owners.

A list of similar LR chamberings is on the table to be treated similarly as well.

Now get this, rebarrelling to a .338/378 is supposed to be OK, but no .338 Lapua.

The whole SA Firearms legislation is being reviewed for April I believe, so who knows what will be in that.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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rigbymauser
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: NitroX]
      #154850 - 26/02/10 08:43 AM



Hi John.


Living here in a small country, its puzzles me, that as so far we do not have any caliberbans here...but who knows ofcouse. However I have never been to australia yet, but being in such a big country of yours, is there not enough space just to go out and shoot at a remote place??.
If not so, couldn`t anyone downthere anywy find a spot where "uncle bobby" didn`t show up?
If so, why would anybody go to a shotingrange anyway??.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: Empire375]
      #154853 - 26/02/10 12:15 PM

Quote:

I have talked to one person who should know (not the guy I stated earlier) and was told there were some "elements" agitating for restrictions but the general consensus was "Why fix something thats not broken?"
Call it wish-full thinking but I don't feel it will gain any traction.



Good point! The other mass scale bans ("buy-backs") in the past were politically motivated as a result of serious incidents with firearms (eg Port Arthur, Melbourne university) more to be seen to be doing something than actually fixing anything.

This current ban proposal hasn't really been provoked by anything. It would be good if they chose to spend tax payer's money with more diligence and acountability. I wonder what the costs are to make changes to the legislation, not to mention the man power and processes put in place to handle another buyback?

I wonder what public consensus would be on this issue if it reached the media - which it won't because it is not newsworthy.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: rigbymauser]
      #154874 - 26/02/10 04:37 PM

Quote:


Living here in a small country, its puzzles me, that as so far we do not have any caliberbans here...but who knows ofcouse. However I have never been to australia yet, but being in such a big country of yours, is there not enough space just to go out and shoot at a remote place??.
If not so, couldn`t anyone downthere anywy find a spot where "uncle bobby" didn`t show up?
If so, why would anybody go to a shotingrange anyway??.



Yes it puzzles us as well.

Many in the Police obviously do not trust their own law abiding citizens.

Many some copper is looking for an excuse to make a splash to get a promotion?

The Minister of Police in SA is also alleged to be very anti-gun.

What these "gun-bans" represent is just smaller steps on their ultimate objective of banning everything.

If they try it all at once they know there will be a huge backlash. But by smaller steps, they know the divided shooters community will argue and infight and some will not care because they aren't affected this time. So they ban everything in small steps.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Empire375
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Reged: 18/08/09
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: NitroX]
      #154877 - 26/02/10 05:05 PM

I got in touch today with David McCarthy President SSAA SA and he replied with the following ...

Hi Bob, the post you have read was notes from a meeting we had with SAPOL. The SSAA's stance is to argue and fight these and any other restrictions as they occur. SSAA SA have a meeting tomorrow where we will decide what our next course of action is, now that we have the information and not just rumours. In the mean time I'm sure that writing to your local member and federal member will do no harm if you express your concerns in a clear and concise way. No doubt you will hear alot more about this subject in the very near future.

This to me sounds encouraging............

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handsomerob
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Re: Banning risk to large calibre rifles in Aust [Re: Empire375]
      #155404 - 03/03/10 08:25 PM

any more news on this, as a west australian currently arguing with the police licensing service, this interests me quite a lot. i'm going through the State Administrative Tribunal at the moment to get a gun that i had to order in and pay for just to apply for the license. now i had a feeling that they were trying to put me off till some law change came through, the only light on the horizon is that the SAT seem to be a little negative toward the lack of justification by the police. The other scary thing is that i probably will not see any compensation, and will probably struggle to sell the firearm. it upsets me that i have so much trouble with a simple single shot bolt action rifle, yet am allowed to get a pump action 30 06 with little problem.

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