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tophet1
.400 member

Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia

7x64 Sniper Round
#131803 - 08/04/09 09:06 PM

Pre WWII the German Army contemplated useing the 7x64 round in their sniper rifles.

Does anyone have any info on this ?
I was wondering what weight projectile was contemplated ?

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1299
Loc: France / Germany

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: tophet1]
#131824 - 09/04/09 12:48 AM

I never heard that! The cartridge in use for the sniper's was the 8x57IS. In a first time W.Brenneke was very hopefully for the 8x64S by the army, but without success.

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tophet1
.400 member

Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: grandveneur]
#131869 - 09/04/09 07:28 AM

Yes, I beleive they contemplated useing the 7x64 but standardised/remained with the 8x57.

I was just hopeing to have that rumour confirmed or denied.

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Rolf
.333 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 396
Loc: Germany, Bavaria

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: tophet1]
#132194 - 13/04/09 11:33 PM

Gentlemen,

I read in a book about german snipers that the 7x64 was tried in WWII for sharpshooting purposes, in a field test for ballistic preformanceand precision.

If you are interested, I can research and maybe make copies/translations?

best regards
Rolf

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Riflemanusmc
.224 member

Reged: 04/01/09
Posts: 32
Loc: Montana

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: Rolf]
#153180 - 09/02/10 05:31 AM

Rolf,

Is that the article in Laws book?

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Big_Sarge
.224 member

Reged: 26/06/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Mississippi

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: Riflemanusmc]
#153188 - 09/02/10 08:53 AM

This is what I found:

In 1917 Brenneke necked down his 8x64mm S design of 1912 to 7 mm calibre and introduced it as 7x64mm and achieved a major commercial success. The 7x64mm offered compared to the 7x57mm about 10 to 12 % extra muzzle velocity. This results in a flatter trajectory and better performance at longer range. In the years between World War I and World War II the 7x64mm was often regarded by German hunters as a “miracle cartridge” and dozens of different factory loads where available on the German market. It was that highly regarded the German Wehrmacht (Army) during the 1930s even considered replacing the 8x57mm IS in favour for the 7x64mm for their snipers. The Wehrmacht decided - just like the German army in 1912 - to stick to the 8x57mm IS cartridge for their Mauser Karabiner 98k to keep things as simple as possible in their logistical chain.

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tophet1
.400 member

Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: Big_Sarge]
#153189 - 09/02/10 08:56 AM

Thx for that. That is what I had heard. May I ask your source for that info ?

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Big_Sarge
.224 member

Reged: 26/06/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Mississippi

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: tophet1]
#153191 - 09/02/10 10:16 AM

I believe the translation I have originated with this -

http://www.wildundhund.de/r30/vc_content...rtrait_0605.pdf

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tophet1
.400 member

Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: Big_Sarge]
#153194 - 09/02/10 11:31 AM

Cheers,

John

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Paul
.400 member

Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: tophet1]
#153218 - 10/02/10 12:48 AM

I'd never heard of it but it makes sense; cf what the English had been trying to achieve with the P13.

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xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: Big_Sarge]
#153219 - 10/02/10 12:49 AM

The British Army had already opted in 1913 for a 7mm cartridge with a performance level not much different from the 7mm Remington Magnum. The advent of World War I shelved the project and turned the P13 Enfield in caliber .276 to the P14 Enfield in caliber .303, and eventually into the M1917 Enfield in caliber .30-'06, which explains why the P14/M1917 Enfield action was too heavy and too large for the two cartridges it was later adapted to.

An interesting article on reviving the P13 Enfield can be found at http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=4096

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9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: xausa]
#153222 - 10/02/10 01:12 AM

Quote:

The British Army had already opted in 1913 for a 7mm cartridge with a performance level not much different from the 7mm Remington Magnum.

This is a common misconception.

Due to powders of the day, the .276 was limited to a performance level not much better than the 7x57 using modern powders.

See Labbett & Mead's work on the .276 on milsurps. 150 grain bullets are shown at slightly less than 2800 fps to somewhat less than 2900 fps and that with the long barrel of the test rifles.

I achieved 2800 fps with no pressure signs at all using 150 grain bullets in a 22" bbl Ruger 7x57. The .276 was no 7mm Remington Magnum of today, but was pretty impressive in its day.

That 7x57 of ours accounted for deer and elk and varmints, and was a sheer killer. There are no flies on the 150/2800 combination, that's for sure!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: 9.3x57]
#153234 - 10/02/10 06:37 AM

The original performance of the .276 Enfield fired from the Pattern 13 rifle was 2785 fps with a 165 grain bullet, accomplished with 49.3 grains of cordite. This compares pretty favorably with the 2940 fps. achieved by the 160 grain factory load for the 7mm Remington Magnum and 2860 fps. attained by the 7X64 with the 175 grain bullet, both using modern propellants.

Much better performance on the part of the Enfield cartridge could also be anticipated using modern double base powders.

The notoriously hot burning single base propellant cordite made barrel erosion ferocious and more or less doomed the cartridge before it had even been thoroughly tested, even without the intervention of World War I.

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1778
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: xausa]
#153241 - 10/02/10 08:10 AM

Sorry, xausa, it's exactly the other way: Cordite was a double base powder, consisting of Nitrocellulose and Nitroglycerine, Mk.I 37% nc + 65%ng; M.D. 65%nc + 30% ng, both with 5% mineral jelly. Nearly all modern rifle powders are single base, made of nitrocellulose!

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: kuduae]
#153256 - 10/02/10 02:20 PM

Kuduae,

I'm sure you're right. It's my brother who has the PhD in Chemistry. However, I am equally sure that I'm right about the burning temperature of cordite and its extreme destructive effect on barrel steel compared to modern powders, irrespective of their composition.

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kamilaroi
.400 member

Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: xausa]
#153257 - 10/02/10 03:01 PM

Mate,

I think Cordite had a major problem early on but was superceded by "Axite" abt 1903, another kettle of fish altogether.

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450_366
.400 member

Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.

Re: 7x64 Sniper Round [Re: xausa]
#153278 - 10/02/10 08:22 PM

Quote:

Kuduae,

I'm sure you're right. It's my brother who has the PhD in Chemistry. However, I am equally sure that I'm right about the burning temperature of cordite and its extreme destructive effect on barrel steel compared to modern powders, irrespective of their composition.

You are both right, its a Double Base powder and "hot" burning as its a degressive non coated powder (high initall pressure).
All SD and DB powders today are coated to alter burn carestics. The base is usually the same and together with its shape they make the different burning rates.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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