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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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mbogo
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Reged: 21/05/04
Posts: 15
Blaser S2 Double Rifle
      #15045 - 21/05/04 10:57 AM

I have never held one of the Blaser S2 Double Rifles but drool over the look of them every time I go to the Blaser website. What is anyones overall analysis and critique of the Blaser S2 Double Rifle as a larger bore, I am interested in getting a double rifle in 375 H&H for Africa. The 375 has taken more African game than any other caliber but there are some experienced hunters that swear by the larger calibers for dangerous game like the nitro express loads. I want a double that I can have as an all around gun also. Any info would be great.

Edited by mbogo (21/05/04 12:01 PM)


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bonanza
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: mbogo]
      #15054 - 21/05/04 10:51 PM

I have a .375 H&H double and love it. But you'll find many on this forum who will discourage you. They will say the gun won't hold up to the pressure. The modern guns are DESIGNED for the pressure. While I'll agree lower pressure is better, the only way to get it is with a massively recoiling gun like the 470 or 450 #2. The .375 in a double make for a great all around gun. You can load using H414 to reduce the pressure for small game and shoot full thottle loads on cape buff. Also .375 ($1.40/rnd) ammo is really cheap compared to .470 ($8-10/rnd). Food for though.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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450Dakota
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: mbogo]
      #15059 - 22/05/04 02:16 AM

We had that in depth discusion last week, look up the thread I started titled (HOW ABOUT THOSE BLASERS) I to fell in lust with the classic stock Lux model. Look at the info and opinions and make up your own mind...





450


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: mbogo]
      #15062 - 22/05/04 03:59 AM

If it was me, I wouldn't gor for a belted case in the Blaser, I would go for a rimmed round such as a .500/.416 NE.



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mickey
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: bonanza]
      #15064 - 22/05/04 05:58 AM

bonanza

The new Doubles are not designed to handle the 50,000 psi and over pressures of the Rimless cases. The design is over 150 years old and hasn't changed that much. What has happened is stronger steel.

The problem has never been the steel as much as the design and the lack of a reliable system for extraction of rimless cases. Those dinky little ears and those dinky little springs that make them work are the same design that has failed for 100 years. No reason to expect them to be better now.

--------------------
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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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bonanza
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: mickey]
      #15071 - 22/05/04 09:32 AM

Mikey,

Anything mechical is a compromise of design. I really like the .375 H&H - so, if you are correct, then I'll have to live with a stuck case every once and a while, so far they all have come out with no problems. I have come across a nice lower pressure combination I'm dieing to try. H414 powder and Barnes XLC bullets.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: bonanza]
      #15114 - 23/05/04 03:30 PM

Bonanza

That's exactly what I wanted to ask you.

Have you had any problems with extraction with your .375 H&H Magnum? You say you have not to date. Not doubting you but looking for additional information. Are your loads "hot", mild or in between? Have you used it in milder weather or on hotter days? By hotter days I mean temperatures say at 40 deg C (say 105 deg F +)?

My reasons for asking these questions. I think the .375 H&H Mag is a very versatile round. Components are readily available. Most 'modern' double rifle makers make rifles in .375 H&H Magnum. If I was a PH backing up clients with a double rifle I would definitely NOT choose a belted mag double in .375. I would choose a rimmed .470 or similar size double. But as a client or hunting by myself is the issue more technical and probabilimatic than real life?

Looking for true life experiences.



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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NE450No2
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #15126 - 24/05/04 04:56 AM

NirtoX
I too have tried to find first hand information on double rifles in 375H&H with not much success. Several of my friends would like a double rifle in 375H&H but I hate to recommend it untill I get some first hand info. Most of these guys do not reload so they would be shooting factory loads.
After I recover financially form my Africa trip I may just have to get a Chapuis double rifle in 375 H&H and test it myself. After about 500 rounds of factory and reloads we should have some info to base a decision on.
Testing and pig hunting with the H&H double would help keep me from wearing my other doubles plum out.


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NE450No2
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: bonanza]
      #15127 - 24/05/04 05:07 AM

bonanza
What type of 375 H&H double do you have. How many rounds have you shot in it, is it scoped, how does it shoot etc. Give us the details. You will have to be our "test case" for a while.
Also how much different do the different loads hit?


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4seventy
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #15137 - 24/05/04 10:54 AM

In reply to:

is the issue more technical and probabilimatic than real life?




I believe that the extraction problems with rimless cases in doubles is often blown out of proportion.

There are many supposed problems with certain types of doubles which may indeed be true with some rifles, but there are those who would have us believe that it affects "all" rifles of the type in question.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: NE450No2]
      #15143 - 24/05/04 02:12 PM

450NEno2

Hopefully Bonanza will be able to help somewhat. Other than yourself of course most people aren't putting enough rounds through them to truly test them out.



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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: 4seventy]
      #15144 - 24/05/04 02:23 PM

I think that a lot of us stress about small things too much. All the minute details. This is natural as instead of just grabbing the nearest rifle at hand for the daily chores we go on safaris of our lifetimes or if we are lucky the annual or bi-annual safari.

For example my Whitworth is not the perfectly slick Mauser 98 that is a "must" for buffalo hunting as some demand. I have had jams antelope hunting, when not positivey chambering a cartridge. But when buffalo hunting it always was "positively" rammed home. One of these days I will have to leave it with a gunsmith to be worked on.

All things equal, rimmed is better than rimless, no doubt. A.375 H&H Flanged is a better choice than the belted version in a double.




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NE450No2
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #15149 - 24/05/04 04:43 PM

With an H&H double you have all the advantages of a double rifle with the advantage of being able to find ammo almost anywhere. If your ammo gets lost, which is better, a nearly 100% reliable 375 Flanged, with no ammo available in the country your in, or a [maybe?] less than 100% reliable,375 H&H with ammo available almost everywhere?

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mickey
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: NE450No2]
      #15159 - 25/05/04 12:18 AM

450#2

How many times does ammo actually get lost and the rifle not? I hear about it as a big problem but I have to admit that I have never known anybody who lost their ammo but had their rifle.

Is this really a problem?

--------------------
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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Pilgrim
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: mickey]
      #15163 - 25/05/04 03:03 AM

I've been lurking on this site for a while now and have lusted for a DR for about 50 years...yes, I'm that old (59) and haven't yet jumped into the DR game. I've had double shotguns, both flavors (SXS & O/U) and don't have a real preference for one over the other. However, on the subject of extraction/ejection of rimless rounds...The Ruger #1 has been on the market for about 40 years and has been chambered for rimless rounds all that time. I've had at least 10 'em and have 6 of them in the gun safe as I write this. I've never had an ejection problem with these rifles EXCEPT for very hot loads. In the latter case, most often you simply don't have the mechanical advantage to eject the case or tear thru the rim. With a DR, I suspect you might be able to tear thru the rim. No biggy as a cleaning rod will remove the case pretty much every time. At least it has in my case (over 20+ years using the #1's). Why should the DR be any different if designed and assembled correctly? Second issue...If the .375 is too hot for repeated use in a DR, why does everybody who makes a DR chamber it in their rifles? If the rimmed case is essential, why isn't the .375 H&H Flanged chambered and available? Also, why should the .416 Rigby be any different than any other rimless round? Yeah, I know about back thrust and square inches of case head...yada yada...but the Rigby isn't loaded up to full potential in factory loads anyway. It should be about the same in back thrust as any of the .470/.450 #2 etc rounds.

Finally, anyone dumb enough to hunt with hot loads that present a sticking problem should get stomped and/or chewed. It will remove that particular risk from the gene pool which might save us some trouble down the road.

I would prefer a 450/400 3". However, considering the cost and availability of brass and components, I've just about decided on a .375 H&H. Would I prefer a rimmed case...yes. However, the preceeding sentence says it all. If you can't get components, or reasonably priced brass, then its out of my league as I buy shooters, not investment arms. So far there hasn't been a buff or elephant in my pea patch, but a .375 will have to do whenever that happens. FWIW..Pilgrim


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NE450No2
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: mickey]
      #15165 - 25/05/04 04:00 AM

mickey
Like you I have heard of this happening, but do not know anybody that it has happened to.
However as I get ready to leave for ZIM this Friday I do know that I AM worrying about it.
I would hate to get to Africa and not be able to use my rifles. I might be able to find some ammo for the 9,3x74R but would be pretty much out of luck on the 450 No2.
It is probably not as big a problem as we make it out to be.
The main advantage of a 375 H&H double rifle is for guys who are not confirmed rifle cranks, and would like to have a double they could use here in the states as well as Africa, and guys that do not want the big recoil of a 470, and even for guys thet do not reload and will be shooting factory ammo [that is "affordable"].


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NE450No2
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: Pilgrim]
      #15166 - 25/05/04 04:09 AM

Pilgrim
Welcome to the forum.
Take a look at the Chapuis Double rifles. I have one in 9,3x74R. They also make one in 375 H&H. If/when I get an H&H double it will be a Chapuis. I have been very happy with mine. They are very easy to scope. Heym and Krieghoff are also brands to consider. If ordering new I would get the scope mount fitted to the rifle from the start.
For any game normally shot at 200 yards and under I MUCH prefer a double rifle.
The ONLY bad thing about getting your first double is that you will want more of them.


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Pilgrim
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: NE450No2]
      #15170 - 25/05/04 04:41 AM

Thanks for the welcome...

Oh yeah...I know about the "I want more of 'em" problem. I've got #1's I've tricked out that I haven't used for years. They're still in the safe, and will be for some time yet. Probably G'kid presents eventually {:o). Some (about 1/3) were rebarreled to get satisfactory (to me) accuracy. All of those in the safe (7x57, .270, 7mm Rem., and .338 Win) are tuned with Nosler Partitions to deliver 1 MOA accuracy, except the varmint rifles which are tuned to ~ 3/4" (.223), or less than 0.5" (.244 Mashburn aka 6mm Ackley). Now I'm fooling around with lever rifles and cast bullets.

Actually, I've been using cast bullets for about 35 years now, but only recently decided to use them for hunting. For hunting with cast, a lever rifle is plenty of gun. There are now 4 Winchesters (.25-20, .30-30, .375 Win, and .45-70) in use with cast, and three Rem pump rifles (Models 14 and 141, in .25, .30, and .35 Rem, plus parts for a .32 Rem (in progress)) that use rimless versions of the Winchester lever rifle rimmed catridges, also with cast. Pistols using cast run from .32 H&R up thru .45 Colt. If you are going to handicap yourself a bit with a firearm, why not go all the way? Use a pistol or rifle with open sights, cast bullets, straight wall cases, etc. Its about like the handicap with a double rifle re: velocities and accuracy, but you get a tad bit more consistent accuracy as the ranges increase with the lever rifle. With the DR you get more accuracy than with the pistol (factory guns, Freedom Arms and Bowen/Linebaugh/Reeder custom jobs, etc not included), plus the ability to use it for larger critters and longer ranges than with a handgun. I know, elephants, etc have all been whacked with .454's and the like. Thats a stunt IMO (no flame intended to anybody), but different strokes for different folks. I simply do not want to take any risk of wounding a game animal so I restrict myself to animal size and ranges appropriate to the firearm I am using, with my skill level with that firearm. I am currently practicing with Win lever guns in .375 Win and .45-70 for a moose hunt this fall. I haven't decided which rifle to take yet. The .375 is pushing a 270 gr cast at ~ 2100 fps, while the .45-70 is pushing a 425 cast at 1950 fps. The .375 weighs about 6.5 lbs, the .45-70 is supposed to weigh about 7.5 lbs (Win Extra light). There is no doubt about primer function when you pull the trigger with either of them!! I shoot them off of the bench without any undue mental anguish and don't flinch if wearing proper ear protection and I concentrate on the hold and follow thru.

Re: DR's. I am pondering between the Merkle and the Chapuis. The Chapuis has the better reputation, but is about $2k more than the Merkel, similarly equipped. Add another $2k and you can buy the Searcy new or older Brit rifle in "reasonable" used condition. At least that is the way I see it at this time.

Pilgrim


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NE450No2
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: Pilgrim]
      #15172 - 25/05/04 05:05 AM

Pilgrim
I too like the No1's. I had a 243 that shot very well. I still have my 45/70 and it is one of my favorite rifles to hunt with.
If you buy a new rifle I highly recommend the Chapuis.
If you are considering a British rifle take a hard look at a 450/400, either 3" or 3 1/4". I have a 3 1/4" and I like it very well. I have used it to take deer and pigs in Texas, 2 Caribou in Alaska, and one Black Bear in Montana.
My 400 weighs 9 1/4 lbs and is not too heavy for a true backpack hunt like I do in Montana. The 400's are very pleasant to shoot and have enough power for any game on the Planet.
My 450 No2 weighs 11 3/4 lbs. It is my favorite rifle. I am taking it to ZIM this Friday. I have killed several deer and wild pigs, as well as 2 coyotes. However it just seems just to heavy for rough country hunting in Montana and Alaska.


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mickey
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: NE450No2]
      #15174 - 25/05/04 06:36 AM

Pilgrim, welcome to NitroExpress. I have had one Ruger #1 that would fail to eject about 1 out of 5 times. The extractor would jump the case head. It was a .375 H&H that I soon traded off. Aside from that the Ruger #1 has a different type of extractor than a Double so any comparison is not applicable. I have a .223 that works perfectly and shoots the same so I am not anti Ruger.

I am not mechanically minded so any time litle dinky springs and pop up levers are involved I worry, particularly on a rifle the may have to save my life. I have known too many marginal PH's to trust any of them to save my ass if it comes to that.

On a smaller plainsgame type rifle I see no need to give it a second thought but keep in mind that when the extractor on a Double breaks the shell will have to be manually removed everytime.

450#2

I always scratch my head when I see 'affordable ammunition' in the same paragraph as 'Double Rifle'. It is sort of like saying "I'm going to spend $70,000 on a car because it gets good gas mileage so it will be cheap to run.

Have good and safe trip and I look forward to the report on how well your rifles behaved.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Pilgrim
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: mickey]
      #15179 - 25/05/04 08:03 AM

I understand your comment about ammunition expense vs original rifle cost. However, you are not considering the simple view that " if one wants a corvette...then a corvette is the only answer". I bought my wife a corvette convertible, fully understanding that I was also committing to a set of tires at ~ $1200 per set, once per year. I also understood that I would be buying premium gas instead of regular. What I didn't know was that it got 23 mpg average, and over 27 mpg on the highway at 80 mph! {:o) She drives that car everywhere, every day, under every condition except snow/ice covered roads. It has lots of hp, very wide tires, very little ground clearance, and is light weight to boot. Those 4 items make driving in snow and ice conditions a "no-go". On the other hand, if the car only used fuel I could buy at one or two locations in the USA, and that only by mail order...then the car wouldn't be worth having except as a "wall hanger". I don't buy wall hangers or cars as investments. I look at DRs the same way. If I can't feed it, the original cost is irrelevant. If I can feed it, then the original cost is only "how badly do I want it?" Lotsa diffrence in that view of the world.

As far as failure to eject with the Ruger, you found it, and could have had it fixed as it clearly is/was an anomaly. That problem had to have been quite rare or I would have heard more about it, so the basic design was OK. Implementation was lousy, but....Lousy accuracy wasn't an anomaly, and still isn't IMO. I figure one out every three #1's I buy will need a new "non-Ruger" barrel. Rugers accuracy requirement was (may still be for all I know) 2.5" at 100 yards. My .223 finally met that criteria after about 6 months and a few hundred dollars of rifle work (out of my pocket). Ruger wouldn't replace the barrel (eventually I did), even though the barrels only cost Ruger around $8 each at that time. Chambering it would have added a bit more, but a $600 rifle ought to shoot better than 2.5", and it for sure ought to have a better barrel than an $8.00 barrel IMO!

Whether one buys a DR, a bolt rifle, or a single shot, the individual should have "hundreds" of rounds thru that rifle before staring any "dangerous game" in the eyeball at spitting distance. Even the very best make mistakes upon occasion. Bad materials, bad installation, whatever...it happens. Blind trust/faith when you could do something else and eliminate that uncertainty seems to be foolish to me. Rimless cases in a DR seems to be in the category of testing the rifle (hundreds of shots during practice for example) and fixing problems found, or accepting the rifle as is based upon demonstrated performance. If it hasn't failed in hundreds of rounds, it is highly unlikely to fail when you most need it. On the other hand, strikers break, springs break, ejectors break, so what's the difference between an untested rimmed case DR and a rimless cased DR? If the rifle is designed and built properly, it will be functional. If not, well, no point in stating the obvious. Pilgrim


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NE450No2
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: mickey]
      #15182 - 25/05/04 09:42 AM

mickey
If you notice I put the word "affordable" in quotes. I know some very well to do guys and even they "wince" at the price of factory Federal 470 Ammo. Even H. Ross Perot would probably have a heart attack if he had to buy enough Factory Nitro Express Ammo to shoot 200 or so rounds a Month.
With a 375 H&H standard Federal or Remington ammo is QUITE a bit cheaper. In fact it is even QUITE a bit cheaper than 9,3x74R factory ammo, by about half.


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AdamTayler
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: NE450No2]
      #15191 - 25/05/04 10:02 PM

Is Ross Perot still kickin'? I'm surprised he is not running in the next election.

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bonanza
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: NE450No2]
      #15201 - 26/05/04 12:58 AM

There seems to be some interest in .375 H&H in DR. I'll keep this forum up to date with my experience with mine. I currently have a batch of really hot loads for my Ruger No 1 tropical .375 (300 grainer at 2600 fps) I've shot 40 rounds without a single stuck case or extraction problem in 92 degrees. I now know the gun can take full factory loads, however; the fear of damaging an $8000 rifle has lead me to workup a lighter load. The loads I was shooting were at 53k cup (Max). Hodgdon reloading manual states 78 grains of H414 gives 2543 fps at 47k cup. Barnes states there XLC bullets reduce pressure by 10% so 47,000 * .10 = 4700 which yields 47,000 – 4700 = 42,300 cup. If I reduce the powder charge to 75 grains, that should drop my pressure to about 40,000 cup or a %25 reduction and still get about 2400 fps. I have order the reloading equipment and will see how well it shoots with this load.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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NE450No2
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Re: Blaser S2 Double Rifle [Re: bonanza]
      #15209 - 26/05/04 02:46 AM

bonanza
Sounds like a good plan, keep us posted.


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