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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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BadgerPowell
.224 member


Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 8
Loc: west Yorkshire, UK
round ball in 12 gauge magtech brass?
      #151640 - 24/01/10 08:28 AM

My first post here so please be gentle.

I've been hovering around this excellent forum for sometime now as I have a great interest in how things used to be done back in the day (since reading several books by Sir Samuel White Baker) In fact this particular forum inspired me to go out and buy an old but in good condition Greener GP for slugs and round ball(target only, big games a little hard to come by in the North of England)
Well every question I needed to ask has already been asked and answered here with the exception of one.

I am experimenting with round ball black powder loads in my humble Greener with great success but BP makes a real mess of plastic cases and with this in mind I've purchased at great expense a box of 12 gauge Magtech brass shells. My question being is there a method of crimping the ball into the brass shell?

As Im sure the members of this forum are already aware magtech brass has an internal diameter nearer 11 gauge than 12 so wads ect. can be a problem with standard 12 gauge offerings being a more than sloppy fit. I've managed to get round the wad problem now all I need is a reliable method of crimping the case closed such as I've seen in many pictures.
The picture in the thread Side by Side Slug Gun, What should I do? shows exactly the crimp I'm trying to acheive.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
Badger

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: round ball in 12 gauge magtech brass? [Re: BadgerPowell]
      #151672 - 24/01/10 11:46 PM

Badger,

A hearty welcome to NE.com! Thanks for joining in. You've been lurking long enough with a registration date of April '08!

Here's my suggestion to your reloading problem: RCBS offers a 12ga. reloading die set, which is listed in Huntington's catalog. I don't see it on their website, but here's a scan from Huntington's 2009 dealer catalog.



Now I have a couple of questions for you. What size ball will you use in your magtech brass? How does it relate to the groove diameter of your Greener? What load do you intend to use?

Another question: What are you spending for your MagTech brass? It's pretty cheap here. Huntington sells it for less than $1.00 each.

In short, give some detail of your rifle and what you plan to shoot in it. Thought you would get off easy, eh?

Again, welcome to NE.com

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: round ball in 12 gauge magtech brass? [Re: CptCurl]
      #151681 - 25/01/10 02:11 AM

Badger,

I had good success with MagTec brass in a 12 bore Paradox gun. I purchased 11ga wads and cards and they fit perfectly. The only issue I encountered was that often the cases would extract but wouldn't eject. They expanded upon firing and had to be pulled out of the chambers. It wasn't a pressure issue. The cases just didn't spring back to their sized diameter. It may or may not happen in your gun.

--------------------
~

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26546
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: round ball in 12 gauge magtech brass? [Re: Grenadier]
      #151687 - 25/01/10 04:03 AM

I use the tapered cone crimper for paper hulls for turning the brass case in for the crimp. It works perfectly on MagTec brass cases. The crimp irons out upon firing. The brass needs to be annealed in the mouth area - dull red in a darkened room, quenched in water. I use a small press and spacers of steel to prevent over crimping.

The cloth patched loads shot more accurately than those with balls that engraved the (straight) rifling in my gun. As well, with the heavy denim (12 oz.) cloth around the ball, there is no leading and the fouling stays soft from BP lube on the patches.

I paid $21.00 plus shipping and CDN taxes per box of 25 from Buffalo Arms Inc.
These are 16 bore and 2.4" long.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: round ball in 12 gauge magtech brass? [Re: BadgerPowell]
      #151706 - 25/01/10 05:28 AM

Here are some of the tools I use when loading bore rifle cartridges.

The short cylindrical tool with the stepped bore is my crimp tool.




Any vice or press will do - and I often just use my big graver's block as it's right there in my lap...




Those are sixteen bore magtech with fourteen bore ball for a rifle set up for the thin brass case.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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BadgerPowell
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Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 8
Loc: west Yorkshire, UK
Re: round ball in 12 gauge magtech brass? [Re: CptCurl]
      #151723 - 25/01/10 07:26 AM

Hi and thanks for the warm welcome.

The RCBS die sounds like just the thing so I searched MidwayUK and found one at £81.51 plus shipping, that's in UK Pounds of course. I would say that is the ideal way to go but I would have to get another press as my present loading press is a Lee with the 7/8 x 14 thread, so perhaps this particular method would have to be a future project.

At the moment I'm using a .690 pure lead ball riding in a cut down trap wad which has proven to be as accurate as any purpose made rifled slug I tried, and sorry perhaps I didn't make myself clear my Greener GP is a smoothe-bore. I hope to progress to a rifled barrel for this particular shotgun sometime in the hopefully not to distant future, funds permitting.

As for the Magtech brass I paid £9.99 (UK Pounds) for my first box of 25 direct from the main UK importer who's warehouse premises are only a 1/2 hour drive up the road from me, unfortunatly he's no-longer able to supply me direct so I'm now having to pay £26+ from MidwayUK the + being £8.95 shipping.

Regards
Badger

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BadgerPowell
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Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 8
Loc: west Yorkshire, UK
Re: round ball in 12 gauge magtech brass? [Re: DarylS]
      #151726 - 25/01/10 07:59 AM

Hi Daryl

Tapered cone crimper for paper hulls, this sounds very much like the way to go and the cloth patching method would I believe be just the thing for my particular project.

So the simple question would have to be where can I come by a taper cone crimper for paper hulls and how exactly would I use one?

A thought I've often had is the cloth patch would foul up on the force cone of a smoothe-bore shotgun although I've heard of this method being used many times before with no problems. I also thought this could be the case with a rifled barrel possably leading to an obstruction?

Regards
Badger

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26546
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: round ball in 12 gauge magtech brass? [Re: BadgerPowell]
      #151742 - 25/01/10 11:30 AM

I've only recently tried them myself, but my friends have been cloth patching 14 bore round balls for their full choked 12 bore duck guns for the past 20something years, without trouble. Due to the necessary fibre wad beneath the patched ball, the patch cannot stay in the bore any more than a wad could. Even if the patch pushed back off the ball, the following wad, which is pressing already on the patch's base, along with the ball's bottom, will shove it out the bore. That wad beneath gaurantees the patch comes out. The accuracy I've (and my friends) have achieved with them shows they always perform as they should.

Where to get a crimper? Making one would be the easiest, I suppose now that I think about it. It is used with a shotshell press like my old Herters, the Mec's, etc, or with a hammer. Due to the fibre cushion wads, the ball can be pushed down flush with the top of the case, allowing the case to crimp properly, then it springs back up against the crimp, which holds it in the case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: round ball in 12 gauge magtech brass? [Re: DarylS]
      #151746 - 25/01/10 12:34 PM

To further support Daryl's comment on bore obstruction etc --

With a proper powder load you won't be seeing stuck wads (with brass case and no base wad).
I'm seeing my wads (from the cartridges seen above here) on the ground about 75 yards down range from the muzzles.
I'd expect patched roundball to drop them a fair bit closer to the muzzles, but again with a proper powder charge you won't stick your wad column.



Cheers
Tinke

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26546
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: round ball in 12 gauge magtech brass? [Re: tinker]
      #151831 - 26/01/10 03:56 AM

The patches flair quickly when leaving the muzzle, usually dropping within 20 feet or so. I suppose a wad might push one a bit farther at times.

The nice thing about patches, is they can turn a slightly undersized ball, into the correct size quite easily. Just be sure to use linen or 100 % cotton, no synthetics, especially with black powder loads. Thus a 15 or 16 bore ball can be shot in a 14 bore gun, just as a 14 bore or 13 bore ball can be shot in a 12 by adjusting patch thickness. I like denim as there are so many thicknesses on the market, usually denoted by weight in ounces, ie: 6, 8, 10 and 12oz. The 'above' loads I pictured are 15 bore balls (.675") with 10 oz. denim, which measures .020" with my michrometer. They are a perfect fit inside MagTec 16 bore brass hulls. 2 x .020" + .675" = .715". My right barrel measures .703" in the grooves. This shows .012" compression total, or .006" per side. This snug fit keeps the bore clean of any buildup of fouling, and the lube, ie: mink oil from Track) lubricates the bore and keeps that shot's fouling soft.

Too - I would stay away from the percholate/clorate (phoney black powders) powders ESPECIALLY in original guns.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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