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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Tallchief
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Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts
      #151426 - 22/01/10 12:06 PM

Has/Have any of you seen or thought of fitting rifled shotgun barrels into a SxS shotgun? It looks like a 20 Ga.rifled (Remington/Mossberg)could be machined at the breach end to fit into a 12ga, then do the usual regulating routines you all have mentioned. should produce a nice farely low cost option with plenty of availability........just a thought.I know I shouldn't do that...If any of you are interested, I would do the buying.BTW, my newly arrived Sabatti 45-70 shoots just fine if a little on the light side. Will post photos and targets as soon as I get the proper web site.
TC

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bwananelson
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: Tallchief]
      #158683 - 11/04/10 03:07 AM

want to do this with 12 gauge hasting paradox barrels who do i send this project to

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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Tallchief
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Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: bwananelson]
      #158894 - 13/04/10 09:41 PM

I did speak to the folks at Carlsons and they do install rifled chokes in 12,16, and 20. this would at least give you a paradox gun. I am going to do so as soon as I obtain a suitable shotgun.
TC

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DarylS
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: Tallchief]
      #158905 - 14/04/10 03:05 AM

I would personally like to work with a rifled choke tube, however none of them have deep enough rifling to be as effective as they could/should be, I am certain.

To take a projectile that is bore size, non-rotating, moving at well over 1,000fps, and upon striking the choke, rotate it to stabilization rpm in just 2 1/2" or 3", will require significantly deeper rifling than the .005" or .006" that most of these tubes seem to have. I am not certain the barrels of modern guns (outside the threads) are thick enough to withstand hitting them from the inside with something that is virtually .040" to .060" oversize, .020" to .030" per side (if made to original specs).

To absolutely rotate the ball or slug is why the original paradox guns had VERY deep rifling ie" very tight choked sections.

In my humble opinion, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: DarylS]
      #158913 - 14/04/10 04:17 AM

Daryl;
The REAL problem which nobody has addressed here, is regulation. Carlson, or any other smith, is going to ream and thread the muzzles to accept their rifled choke tubes. Assuming that you mount rifle sights on the gun, it will then be a simple matter to get one or the other barrel to shoot to the point of aim. However, the odds of BOTH barrels shooting to that point of impact are slim to none. If they DO, I'd suggest that you run out and buy a lottery ticket for one of the big ones like Powerball or El Gordo because it would certainly be your lucky day!

Best,
Ron.

Edited by Ron_Vella (14/04/10 04:18 AM)

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Tallchief
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Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #158926 - 14/04/10 09:31 AM

You are both right, but it does seem worth the effort at not much cost, you could get lucky or even have an acceptable grouping....acceptable is of course another subject.I do seem to remember one of our links where a guy cut his barrels back to cylinder and shot round balls into a 2 to 3 inch group at I think 50 yards. to me that is acceptable.Daryl knows more about all of this than must should, so his word is my best guide......I'd still like to try it to see what we get.
TC

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bwananelson
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: Tallchief]
      #158927 - 14/04/10 09:50 AM

i just bought 3 barrels that are rifled blanks 12 gauge i dont even know of they are chambered yet for 12 i think they are though will have them soon with 6 cases of sabots, i need a smith to put them together regulate and dit a 12 frame OU or SXS BUT SXS is what i really want but i am not mechanical they are hastings new

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

Edited by bwananelson (14/04/10 09:52 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: bwananelson]
      #158967 - 15/04/10 01:40 AM

You're right, Ron - regulation is spotty with a lot of guns. Even Forsyth addressed the problem or getting shotguns to regulate with round balls, way back in 1860. He noted the problem was shotguns normally had wider breeches, with more angle to the bores toward the centre, making them cross badly with ball.

Perhaps I was lucky with my double, in that is was fairly slim, that is, the barrels were not really thick at the breech. Mine, with heavy loads for black powder and smokeless, both in the 1,400fps to 1,500fps range, it regulated just fine - round groups at 50 yards in 3" form it's 26" tubes. It would not shoot modern slugs into a consistant 8" at the same range, however.
You never know until you try it.

As far as I know, there is no know perscription that says, do THIS and THIS will happen. You do this and that and hope you arrive at a usable conclusion.

Worse comes to worse, you sight for the accurate bore or barrel, and learn to hold for the other. This was the way of 1860 and works today as well. Several of the guys here played with them with success.

It's a balancing act with wads - small changes in load can make big changes on the target.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
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Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: DarylS]
      #159124 - 18/04/10 12:10 AM

Daryl,
Do you think it would be possible to remove the ribs and insert a hard wood wedge down between the two barrels, shoot until one obtained a descent less-crossed group, then work with loads from that point?
It seems to an extent this is approximating the way some have sdon for DRs. Recognizing this is more skill and luck than total science.
TC

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: Tallchief]
      #159134 - 18/04/10 08:32 AM

Removing and re-soldering ribs is beyond most gun smiths I've heard of. Tricky- have to remove all the solder from the ribs, then re-tin for soldering. Lots of 'time'.

There are a few fellows here who've made doubles from scratch and they know how.

Equipment is necessary for alignment and regulation. Wood separators? - doubt it. Steel separators that fit the radius is the way to go, I suspect.

Set of chamber plugs with lazer's would help with alignment, vertical and horizontal, I would think.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: DarylS]
      #159142 - 18/04/10 10:46 AM

Thanks Daryl,
I'll have to find one of those smiths as there are none in my area capable or have knowledge with much other than bolt action re-stocking and smoothing up cowboy pistols...
I guessed it was tedious but doable. Still seems like an interesting project, and I agree that the lasers will help some, but I also understand the momentum issues (torque) bewteen the two barrels once the firing commences......Thanks for your help and knowledge
TC

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Rolland
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: Tallchief]
      #159147 - 18/04/10 11:58 AM

Tallchief
Why don't you contact Ellis Brown, he lives in Colorado. He wrote the book on building double rifles. He may know someone close to you to contact or perhaps he could help with your project. I have found him to be more than helpful on answering questions. http://www.bundukipublishing.com/doublerifle.htm

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TexasJohn
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Reged: 06/04/10
Posts: 167
Loc: Texas
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: Rolland]
      #159152 - 18/04/10 01:08 PM

I agree completely that regulation will most likely be an issue. I have a petite little .410 double that patterns both barrels fine. I thought it would be neat to have a little double rifle to shoot small game with in the heavy stuff. I bought several brands of .410 slugs and put up a target at 25 yards to see how close the barrels were regulated. They would not hit in an 8" cirle at 25 yards and what was worse was that they were off on opposite sides of it and with terible vertical differences as well! Had they been regulated by the whim of the gods, then I guess some rifled chokes might have made them more effective. If I had access to 100 of these doubles I might find one that was by chance regulated.

John

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: TexasJohn]
      #159171 - 19/04/10 12:52 AM

.410s pose their own unique difficulties due to the vast difference in ratios of muzzle diameter to breech diameter, I think.
As one time, I was going to use one to make a 'cape' gun for deer and moose, by chopping off the barrels at 24" from the normal 26 or 28" (reoving the chokes and thickening up the muzzles, then rifling one of them using a .45 cal rifle barrel (18" twist as a guide), then 'jug' choke the other for shot. The 18" would easily shoot a 350 to 400gr. bullet with up to 90gr. black powder, and, of course, 2 1/2" shot loads in smokeless for the shot barrel for shooting grouse.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: Rolland]
      #159184 - 19/04/10 05:08 AM

I have Ellis Browns book, and do intend to contact him to see what has to say. Some of the posts and the Greener book do talk about paradox guns and their accuracy, even found out that not all paradox guns had complet rifling, but some just had the last 10 inches or so. They were bored very differently than our modern day chokes with much deeper grooves, but were also made to last for decades. At my age, two more decades, and I'll be with the Prince......I hope.......Still interests me a lot though, and so will most likely persue the idea.
TC

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DarylS
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: Tallchief]
      #159187 - 19/04/10 06:56 AM

Couple of us have talked about getting a tightly choked gun, and rifling the chokes just to see what happens - best laid plans of mice and men! Maybe one of these days.
Trouble is, we'll need a full choked 16 or 12 with only 24" to 26" bls. to start with, having a full 40 points of choke per barrel- or to rifle the full choke and leave the modified tube (if so equipped) smooth. 28" to 30" is getting a bit long in the tooth for me.

I've lots of slower twist barrels to use for rifling rod guides.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: DarylS]
      #159192 - 19/04/10 10:13 AM

Too bad you don't have a gun available like one I once owned. It was a Churchill box lock XXV 10 gauge with extra full choked barrels, 25" (of course) long.

I bought it from Holland and Holland back in the 70's and it came with a crossover stock for a right handed shooter with a left master eye. H&H restocked it for me, promising not to use for a stock blank "the box the wood came in", and it turned out to be a well fitting, but plain stock, made to my dimensions 1 3/8" X 2" drop and 14 1/2" pull.

I sold it in a moment of weakness and have no idea where it might be now.

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DarylS
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: xausa]
      #159220 - 19/04/10 10:55 PM

THAT is one gun I wouldn't touch with a rifling head - maybe.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: DarylS]
      #159828 - 02/05/10 10:40 AM

I have a cheap Stoeger Uplander with screw in chokes that I am going to use rifled tubes with. I have come up with an idea (unproven of course) to use a single rear sight and a wedge shaped front sight. The point of the front sight would face towards your eye. In either side of the wedge would be a brass insert to sight off of. If the gun crosses, you would aim the opposite side (barrel to wedge) If it shoots apart, you would use the same side. Once you get the correct alignment, it should just be getting used to which side to aim. My other thought was a t-shaped sight with one of the bright fiber optic sights mounted on each side of the T. Maybe red and green....just like boat lights...port and starboard! These sights will be mounted to machined extension that slides on to the extension of the choke. Should take some of the stress off the double's barrels and also be removeable.
I will let you guys know how tis works out.

--------------------
Life is for Service

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nitro450exp
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Reged: 06/09/07
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: tarawa]
      #161407 - 04/06/10 04:56 AM

Hello All,

I have an IZH 43 Baikal 12 ga 2 3/4" SXS with screw in chokes.
Tanfoglio of Italy offres conversion tubes for this gun.
Sold through EAA in FL.
The caliber I bought was 45-70.
The tubes consist of a rifled tube turned at the breech to 12 ga case dimensions
with an extractor, held in with a wire clip.
At the muzzle it is threaded and a raised ring feature has some slots cut in it.
It came with 2 sets of excentric bushings that depending on what slot they are installed in
changes the regulation.
This is then followed up with an O ring and knurled nut to keep everything put.

I have often though about getting a set of ER Shaw 20 ga rifled barrel blanks.
And having a smith copy the design onto these blanks, voila !
20 ga SXS DR.
I have to hunt with a shotgun due to DNR regs and that would be perfect.
They really are cool conversion tubes.

Very similar to the obove idea except starting with barrel blanks and giving some adjustability.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by nitro450exp (04/06/10 06:54 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: nitro450exp]
      #161419 - 04/06/10 08:54 AM

Excellent idea and product. How do the .45/70 tubes shoot?

Rifled 20 or 16 bore tubes would also be a good idea for a 12 or 10 bore for my use, as long as the rifling was slow enough.

I can see a double 16 bore round ball rifled ctg. gun as being a cool gun to hunt with - or for guiding use. Great conversation piece, too.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
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Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: nitro450exp]
      #161420 - 04/06/10 08:56 AM

That does sound like an interesting design if not the normal approach. I do know after taking many measurement of different bore from 10-16, that it is entirely possible given the extreme difference in 20 and 28s to 10 and twelves. The make concern is that just about no one is producing smaller rifled barrels 'Yet". The reason i say yet is the resurgence in paradox type designs might get some barrel makers think along these lines in this forum. Clearly the pressure is not an issue provided that loads are of shotgun in nature. I would bring a whole new market to otherwise lonely SxSs resting again the closet wall too.
TC

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nitro450exp
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Reged: 06/09/07
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Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: Tallchief]
      #161476 - 04/06/10 11:36 PM

Hello All,

The design is very good.

http://www.eaacorp.com/Manuals/45-70convkit.pdf

The bushings allow you to tune the barrels a fair amount.
I have shot the 45-70 a little and it prints OK.
One barrel shoots low.
Unfortunately the tubes will only ever be as good as the original
$260 Russian made shotgun.
I have a series of loads with the Hornady FTX bullets that I need to test for regulation.
Just need the time.
I may end up making a new bushing to try correct the right barrel.

New development !

I have decided to go ahead with the 20 ga conversion tube idea.
I have to get some measurements on paper and finalize the feasability.
I have sourced a set of barrel blanks ( ER Shaw 20 ga fully rifled )
I have to contact my smith and see how busy he is.

Another thought is a JP Sauer conversion on a 16 ga. frame.
Anyone have a smith who is versed in converting shotguns to DR's ?

Thanks
Nitro

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Al_in_Mi
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Reged: 08/01/06
Posts: 26
Loc: Michigan
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: nitro450exp]
      #161589 - 06/06/10 06:14 PM

I have a set of rifled 12ga tubes I got from Crown Press a couple of years ago. Tom said he got them from France or Germany (can't recall for sure) and were a alloy steel. Plan was to make a double slugger, but directions have changed.

If you interested, I can dig them out and snap some pics.

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Tallchief
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Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: Rifled shotgun barrels as inserts [Re: Al_in_Mi]
      #161594 - 06/06/10 10:34 PM

Yes photos would be nice., and what are their length?

Edited by Tallchief (06/06/10 10:34 PM)

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