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GK
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Reged: 29/10/09
Posts: 161
Loc: Adelaide
BRNO ZKK 601 dilema?
      #150948 - 17/01/10 05:13 PM


I recently bought a ZKK 601 in .308 Win with the view to stripping it out for the action. I purchased knowing that the barrel was past its prime as I didn't want to destroy a good ZKK. The plan was to build it into a scout type rifle in .338/.284Win for Sambar work similar to Jeff Cooper's .350RM.

The problem is that the overall condition is pretty good and then I found an original Jena scope and mount for. I fired a few groups and it keeps most around 50mm at 100m. The barrel looks OK from the chamber end but its definitely worn when looking from the muzzle end.

Basically I've started to really like it and I'm starting to think about maybe keeping it together as a BRNO with its original stock and scope etc and maybe treating it to a stock re-finish and maybe a re-blue. However, I know that the barrel's life is limited and want to see if its possible to get the original barrel opened up to .358 Win. This also appeals to me as the magazine looks a little tight for 250gr .338's on the .284 case. Since I've purchased dies and components, I might keep the .338/.284 plan for a longer action (BSA Royale?)

Does anyone in Australia know if any of the local barrel makers cut larger diameter calibers into an existing barrel? If no locals, has anyone in Oz used an overseas firm to do this sort of work?

Regards

George

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DGR375
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Reged: 04/10/07
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Loc: Gold Coast, QLD
Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: GK]
      #150953 - 17/01/10 06:21 PM

Try contacting the people that make MAB barrels. I have used a MAB barrel to convert my 550 Safari Magnum to 404 Jeffery, and they did a great job.

http://www.tsengineering.com.au/

Give them a call, they may be able to put you on the right track. Otherwise I can recommend Pine Rivers Lock and Gun for you to discuss your requirements. They doa good job and could let you know what are the best options.

www.prlag.com


Good luck!

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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: DGR375]
      #150960 - 17/01/10 08:43 PM

If it ejects without problems you've got a good one. A re-crown might tighten groups with the existing barrel.

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4seventy
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: GK]
      #150963 - 17/01/10 09:46 PM

Sprinter Arms used to do rebores. Not sure if they still do.
I think they were in South Aus.

Are you sure the barrel is badly worn, or could it just be badly fouled.
A good dose of Wipeout would answer that question.

The medium length action CRF BSA's (sometimes referred to as the BSA Royal) are 7x57 length, so should handle the 284 case length ok.

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pablo_mauser_66
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Reged: 01/03/07
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Loc: Australia, Sydney
Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: 4seventy]
      #150964 - 17/01/10 11:01 PM

George, Sprinter will charge around the $400 to bore it out, thou he gave me the impression that he'd rather not do it as its rarher time consuming as he only quoted me $470 for a CM rebarrel.

Tophet1 she should eject just fine as I had the bloody ejector rebuilt just before George stole it off me. I like your 358 idea George ! I have been using a BLR 358 for the last 6 months and its a handy little/big gun !!!. Not too much kick but a lovely big hole.

George I have been collecting M1903 bits, I might have a gun or 3 to unveil later in the year !

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GK
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Reged: 29/10/09
Posts: 161
Loc: Adelaide
Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: pablo_mauser_66]
      #151010 - 18/01/10 10:29 AM

Thanks for the replies guys, looks like I might talk to a few people starting with Sprinter.

Whats the story with the ejectors, are they a BRNO problem area?

4seventy, the medium 7x57 BSA was what I was thinking about as well as a mate has one and I like the look of them apart from the alloy trigger and guard. They remind me a bit of the BRNO and they are not as long as some standard length actions.

pablo_mauser_66, just to let you know I finally sorted out the pop up peep sight for BRNO. I sourced a sight for $90 but it was missing the button, plunger, pins and springs. Luckily Tilleyman gave me some detailed drawings and I had a local machinist who specializes in minuature components make the missing parts. So finally I have a BRNO with a pop up sight.

Please keep me in mind in regards to the M1903. I would be interested in any parts especially stocks as I have a few know but none with decent stocks or any decent stock cartouches. Did you find any complete rifles in your travels?

Regards

George

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pablo_mauser_66
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: GK]
      #151014 - 18/01/10 10:44 AM

thickness of the ejector is the problem I reckon, after years of use they need to be built up and reshaped. I had that done prior to you acquiring, before that you would need to forcefully bring bolt back. Picked up a lovely M1903 sporter mil stock just before Xmas, just in the right place at the right time ! which I have an action for, just looking for a 6.5 swede barrel now. My local stock maker has been turning out some lovely bavarian style stock for a couple of MS recently but did point out that the inletting is a bit laboriuos. I'll keep you in mind George

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TilleyMan
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Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 272
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: pablo_mauser_66]
      #151035 - 18/01/10 04:01 PM

George

Nearly every ZKK I've ever seen has a dodgy crown, and benefits greatly from a re-crowning job... depends on whether there are also rust pits at the crown or not. Even just a ballbearing hotmelt glued to a suitable length of tube and used with valve grinding paste to recut the crown at right angles to the bore will work fine if there is no pitting.

Another problem with .308 ZKK 601's (and I have two of 'em) is that the chamber is often very large towards the rear (excess runout when machining?), causing 'potbellied' fired cases that won't fit back into the chamber at all unless precisely indexed to where they were fired

Moving the barrel in one extra turn and rechambering is another relatively cheap fix that often restores accuracy without losing the unique ZKK barrel profile with integral rear sight base.
A standard barrel profile just doesn't look right IMO, and machining in that double dovetailed sight base is VERY expensive... if you can find a gunsmith even willing to tackle the job.

I'll try and post some pics if I can find them of my reworked ZKK600 in .270... with 6x32 Zeiss Jena QD scope. Yes, a 6x scope was a very rare factory option vs the usual 4x QD scope.

A simple quick'n'dirty ball-bearing recrown halved group sizes at 100m to ~30mm with Remington Corelokt factory 130gr loads... I was going to rebarrel it to 9,3x62mm but it shot so well for a hunting rifle I kept it as a .270

Cheers

TM

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FATBOY404
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Reged: 14/11/09
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: TilleyMan]
      #151036 - 18/01/10 04:10 PM

If you go onto the Lothar Walther web site you will see that they make a lot of factory profile's and Brno ZKK is one of them.
You could also consider talking to Greame Spraggon as he is the importer for Walther

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: GK]
      #151054 - 18/01/10 10:06 PM

I think the guy who worked for Brno and designed the 600 series , also worked on the Royal (I think thats the name) BSA range too ! or so I read some where .

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JACKEL
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Reged: 12/01/10
Posts: 52
Loc: BUENOS AIRES, ARGENTINA
Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: GK]
      #151066 - 19/01/10 01:30 AM

Hi I am very intrested in retrofitting such a peep sight on 2 of my ZKK 601 Brnos (308 w) is there any chance you post pictures of how you got that work done and of the stripped peep sigt and its parts and components, or better yet if you know where to buy such a sight assembley, I bought a NECG peep sight for one of the rifles along with corresponding taller front post ( sourdough type post ) but the assembly sits to high on the rifle and it doesnt looks rigt either, also every time I want to mount the scope ( the original Zeiss 4x ) I have to remove the peep ( not practical when you are in the field ) so I am looking to recreate the original pop up peep assembly.
Thank very much in advance.
Oh and if you still have the diagrams and dimmensions that Tilleyman send to you, please I would really apreciate that you post them here ( you guys here on Nitroexpress are the only ones that I found over the Internet that really know what your talking about and also hawe a lot of knowledge and also are willing to share it), so thank yery much indeed.




Best regards.




Ernesto.

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GK
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Reged: 29/10/09
Posts: 161
Loc: Adelaide
Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: JACKEL]
      #151141 - 19/01/10 02:47 PM

Hi Ernesto,
Next time I pull of the scope, I'll take some photo's.

I have some photo's of an apeture sight from Gunbroker from about a year ago but I have not yet worked out how to post images on this board yet and I don't have my own website.I'm happy to email them to you if you like. However you cannot see the plunger button in these photo's. The seller wanted $US250 and I was seriously thinking about it when I found the main part of one locally. I only had the smaller parts made up and I think if you wanted to get the complete sight manufactured it would cost too much. I'll check with Tilleyman if he has all the drawings.

Good luck with it, I'll keep an eye out for another one as well.

Does anyone have an easy way of uploading images?

Regards

George

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TilleyMan
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Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 272
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: GK]
      #151143 - 19/01/10 03:08 PM

Ernesto

I'm happy to send you the engineering drawings of the missing small plunger, button and assist springs I prepared for George as PDF's.

Only problem I'm pretty sure they are still on my home computer, and not on my memory stick... I'm working on prototype vehicle production in Japan for another month.

I prepared those drawings as part of 3D CAD modelling the entire ZKK pop-up rear sight assembly, I started on the other parts before I left Australia.

In taking the measurements and looking at the design, it is obvious a LOT of special tooling and jigs were used for their producion back in the day.

The only way to economically reproduce them these days would be to do it yourself over several weeks or via a 5 axis CNC milling process... particularly the recess that the peep sight drops into, a lot more intricate than it looks at first glance.

An improvement would be to make the windage and elevation click adjustable instead of the rather arbitrary factory set screw and friction drive arrangement.

Still I like a (reverse) engineering challenge and will eventually finish the parts off and then tackle 3D modelling the receiver recess too!

Happy to share the results with other ZKK Brnophiles, but to paraphrase Captain Oates "I may be some time"

Try www.photobucket.com for a free, easy to use image storage facility.

Cheers

TM

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GK
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Reged: 29/10/09
Posts: 161
Loc: Adelaide
Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: TilleyMan]
      #151159 - 19/01/10 08:29 PM

Ernesto,

I've set up a photobucket account so hopefully the attached images will appear below.

Apparently, there are some small variations between these as this one has two bottom springs while the one I have only has one. I think that there may be a variation on the windage adjustment as well.

I think I have found Tilleyman's drawings so I'll upload these soon as well, fingers crossed.

Forgive me if the don't as I normally have young computer lovers at work to do this sort of stuff for me.

George

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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: TilleyMan]
      #151161 - 19/01/10 08:35 PM

I have a magazine article some where & the guy fitted a after market Brno type sight into a non peep sighted Brno action , milled it out & fitted , no detail , only a photo & that statment .

I have the Brno peep parts awaiting my 458 , if you like I can take some pics & post if need be ?

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JACKEL
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Reged: 12/01/10
Posts: 52
Loc: BUENOS AIRES, ARGENTINA
Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: Sarg]
      #151176 - 20/01/10 01:06 AM

Thank everybody very much, Tilleyman, GK and Sarg, that is exactly what I was looking for, GK Ill wait for the drawings and everthing relationed, Tilleyman great work I like that reverse engeeniering idea very much (not an easy task I guess), and yes Sarg if its not too much asking please post as many pictures as posible, if you can take some of the rear bribge too please, ( if somone knows where I can buy a complete sight assembly please let me know ).





THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ALL YOUR HELP, I KNOW I AM IN EXELLENT COMPANY.





CHEERS.


Ernesto.

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Sarg
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: JACKEL]
      #151262 - 20/01/10 10:39 PM

Well my pics are not as good as that , I might try again if I get time , sorry I have no bridge to photograph !

It's all good , people help me here all the time !

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JACKEL
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Reged: 12/01/10
Posts: 52
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: Sarg]
      #151265 - 20/01/10 11:47 PM

Thank you Sarg, exellent , I can see the diferences between the 2 models ( yours with 1 spring an GKs with 2 ) I also realize that it is way out of my skills to reproduce such a piece o machined steel, ( I know, Tilleyman told me so ), any way Ill keep allert if such a rear sight appears for sale some place.

Thank you again.


Best regards.




Ernesto.

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Sarg
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: JACKEL]
      #151302 - 21/01/10 06:52 AM

Thats Cool !
I was thinking it would be ambitous to machine one up , I will look for that magazine to find answers & keep a eye out for a peep for you to !

no pun intended !

Edited by Sarg (21/01/10 07:17 AM)

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BwanaBob
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: GK]
      #151321 - 21/01/10 09:47 AM

Anyone who is having troubles with their ZKK601 in .308Win can just send it to me and I will relieve them of all the stress and anguish of owning such a rifle!

I recently bought one in .243 simply because I couldn't find one in .308 but I am still looking for 601s in .308 and .222 - they are just lovely guns.

And I have thought about finding a cheap one (yes, I am dreaming) and turning it into a .358; now that would be a fantastic project. I have a Savage 99 in .358 and it is a great, and largely overlooked, cartridge.

If I was looking at turning a ZKK601 (.308 or .243) into a .358, I don't think I would go the re-bore route myself. Many years ago, when I lived in Adelaide, I took a lot of projects to Sprinter arms (Church St., Hahndorf) because at the time they did re-bores for around a third of the price of a new barrel. However, John Bridgeman (who passed away many years ago) got sick of doing re-bores and not selling many of their own barrels and that is when they raised the price of re-bores to equal the price of a new barrel. In short, they are not keen on re-bores and if there is one thing I have learnt about gun projects, it is make sure the gunsmith likes and approves of your project before you leave it with him otherwise the job is likely to be shabby or simply take a very long time to do.

My suggestion would be a Walther barrel in a ZKK profile - you retain the appearance of the original rifle with a top quality barrel. I think that the slightly greater investment would pay off far more than a re-bore. And, by the way, Graeme Spraggon is not the only source of Walther barrels.

As for finding the components to re-build the aperture sight - good luck! Years ago I owned a ZKK601 that came with the aperture missing. I looked for replacements for a very long time and, eventually, was forced to make my own with some very careful and painstaking file work. However, there are good gunsmiths who can duplicate the parts and they will cost you but finding the replacements is going to be like finding a needle in a haystack.

It is the same with the triggers for the ZKKs, I hate the set trigger (it works well but looks ugly) but so many ZKKs come with it while the standard trigger has been lost (in a forgotten parts bin along with the missing apertures, no doubt!).

I am about to use one of my standard triggers to get my pet gunsmith to make up a couple for ZKKs I own that still carry the set-trigger. Anyone want ZKK set-triggers? I have a few I don't want!

Edited by BwanaBob (21/01/10 09:59 AM)

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GK
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: BwanaBob]
      #151341 - 21/01/10 01:37 PM

I agree that a new Walther barrel in the correct profile is a good option.

However, I had a quick look at the Walther site and I can't seem to find and ZKK profiles as an option for the barrel contour.

I could only find CZ 550 sporters and they seem to not have the rear sight boss of the original ZKK.

Am I not looking in the correct section?

Regards

George

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TilleyMan
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: GK]
      #151482 - 22/01/10 10:19 PM

Ernesto

This is how the peep should look assembled, an original ZKK601 in .308 shown:





You can see the back of the sight fits into a recess that is not a simple milled space... it is much much more complex inside!

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tophet1
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: GK]
      #151483 - 22/01/10 10:27 PM

Quote:

I agree that a new Walther barrel in the correct profile is a good option.

However, I had a quick look at the Walther site and I can't seem to find and ZKK profiles as an option for the barrel contour.

I could only find CZ 550 sporters and they seem to not have the rear sight boss of the original ZKK.

Am I not looking in the correct section?

Regards

George



I couldn't find a BRNO replacement barrel on the Lothar Walther sight either and I'm rather familiar with the site, as they are all I use now.

If you want to retain the original profile and features of the existing barrel then you may have to go full custom ($$$) or accept a replacement barrel that approximates the original dimensions and have it re-bedded.

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GK
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Reged: 29/10/09
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: tophet1]
      #151498 - 23/01/10 01:09 AM

I called Sprinter Arms today.

Story is that his machine for doing rebores is out of action and he said that the material the BRNO used in their barrels is a bad one to rebore.

He also told me that no one in Australia can do a rebore anymore.

He is willing to supply and fit a new barrel for $475 and can match the profile, remove and replace the front sight and match up the rear sight base for an extra fee which did not seem unrealistic. I forgot to ask about re-bluing but all in all his prices did not seem too bad.

Anyone have any experience with a Sprinter barrel? I know the F class guys don't rate them.

Alternatively, has anyone sent a barrel to an overseas firm for reboring?

George

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TilleyMan
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Reged: 23/08/05
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Re: BRNO ZKK 601 dilema? [Re: GK]
      #151562 - 23/01/10 03:27 PM

GK

Thanks for the update... I contacted them a year or so ago about a rebore when I was looking to rebarrel the ZKK600, but they weren't keen even when the machine was actually in service

They said the Brno barrels were very 'stringy' with hard and soft spots that made the tool wander or gall in certain areas... "It will be pretty rough inside but will shoot OK" was their final word.

Sprinter may have made good barrels a few years ago, but everyone I know with experience of them avoid them.

TrueFlite in NZ will make up ZKK original barrel profiles apparently.

http://www.truefliteriflebarrels.co.nz/13544/index.html
http://www.truefliteriflebarrels.co.nz/13544/5139.html

One way to save costs on getting a ZKK rear sight base installed on a new barrel blank is simply to cut off the barrel at the rear sight boss and backbore it with a taper to match the new barrel, then part it off the barrel stub.

Sweat it onto the new barrel for a fraction of the cost of machining it integrally... be very difficult to pick if done carefully.

Cheers

TM

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