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lancaster
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The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history
      #150441 - 13/01/10 01:29 AM

Post this here under classic rifle's because I feel an action 119 years old don’t fit in the new rifle’s section.

you may remember that christmas was coming again



and because unusual things will happen in this time of the year
I have got a Mosin sporting rifle kit from finland one day before christmas. It started in the mosin forum over one year ago in a discussion about the 9,3x53R Finish. Some times later Bokmal send me a message that he have seen a 9,3 barrel - if I allways have an interest for such an rifle? This barrel was for an arisaka action but in the end I have got a mosin barrel, a system, a piece of walnut, an old Zeiss Ziel Vier and a Mannlicher Schoenauer claw mount, also the small parts for a very, very pc sporting rifle.
And it will end someday in the proof house in Suhl, hopefully without blowing the rifle in pieces.









You know that one rifle leads to another rifle. When I've got a M 88 in 9x57 was needing also a swedish sporter in 9,3x57 and having this I was knowing that a finish 9,3 is a must have. While waiting for the parts was browsing through the net for informations about the cartridge and it will be shame now when it will be lost.
The finish Mosin conversation was most times a simple hunting rifle made from an old war horse to hunting moose for meat one time in the year like this here.





There are existing also some decent real Mosin sporter but the style and the taste of the sixties was becoming something uncertain. It was the time when Monte Carlo stocks and plastic fake ivory caps coming in vogue. not that I mean such finish sporters but it wasnt the same anymore like it was before WW 2.







My destination is a sporting rifle in the clear and classic lines of the Husqvarna mauser sporter.
when I start this project was looking for all informations about and around the 9,3x53R.

First thing to note is that there are in fact four different 9,3x53 cartridges. The first was a 9,3x53 rimless, called Model 25. this is a 7,5x55 Swiss necked up for a .366 bullet. The designation M 25 indicate 1925 as the time of development.



As a Model (19)26 exist the 9,3x53R Swiss, this is the rimmed version for single shot’s. I don’t have seen rifles for this rounds till now. What I have heard is that the rimles round was chambered in rebored swiss military rifles without any other “sporterisation”. The rimmed cartridge was intendet for the popular martini falling block action. The swiss arsenal Altdorf was maybe the only manufaturer for both rounds. The production of this cartridges seems to stop in the sixsty’s



The 9,3x53R Swiss will be sometimes mixed up with the

9,3x53R Finish

What norma is saying about his 9,3x57 is also true for the 9,3x53R Finish:

“Interestingly, no one seems to be able to determine exactly when or by whom the 9.3x57 chambering was designed”

What we know is that it started after WW 2 in a time when the finish had a lot of problems caused from the big neighbour in the east. There was a law forbidding the use of military rifles for hunting after WW 2 what caused the 8,2x53R Mosin and probably also our 9,3x53R. Similar stupidity after WW 1 created the 8x60 Mauser in germany. Its my opinion that the finish copy the Swedish idea of the 9,3x57,well proofed in Husqvarna Mauser sporter and created a Moose cartridge for cheap conversions of old military rifles. Sako in Finland was and is the only manufacturer of this cartridge and sold also new brass. A box of 20 unfired cases is sold for 16,50 euro here and when I make my order had have to wait because it was sold out. It must be more than one rifle around here in the evil empire. There are good reasons to belief that the first drawing of our cartridge was made from a Sako employee.





right 9(,3)x53R russian version/LVE left 9,3x53R Finish/Sako





Old sako ammo box


And new ammo box

Like with the 9,3x53(R) Swiss only the neck of the 7,62x54R Mosin was open for .366 diameter bullets. The rest of the case was not change and so a rebored and reriffled military Mosin barrel needs only a neck reamer.




You see in this Kemira list that the 9,3x53R runs a little bit higher than the 9,3x57 Mauser because the mosin can stand a little bit more pressure than a Swedish M 96 action.
This kemira load is more or less identical with the sako factory load. we can assume it is in fact the sako factory load:





SAKO 9,3x53R factory load:

Velocity
Bullet Weigth V0 V100 V200 V300

9,3x53R Gamehead RN 16,6 gramm 710 600 500 420

Energy
0m 100m 200m 300m

4083 2912 2027 1426

Balistic
50m 100m 150m 200m 250m 300m

3,1cm 5,0 cm 0 cm -13,3 cm -37,5 cm -72,4 cm

the 9,3 Finnish was ever loaded with one bullet weigth in all the years. In my opinion is the 16,6 gramm bullet ideal for this 9,3mm cartridges like the 16 gramm was the best for the 9mm and the 17,2 gramm was the best for the ligth 9,5mm cartridges.
Sako was loading also the 9,3x57 Mauser once with this bullet. Norma have maybe good reasons for the “ ligth” 230 grains and the heavy 285 grains load in the 9,3x57. the first is fine for roe deer and the second is for moose but there is something like a ideal bullet weigth for every cartridge. The 285 grains bullet is the rigth one in the 9,3x62, in the 9,3x57 and 9,3x53R it’s the 16,6 gramm bullet.


Old copper crusher method give a max. pressure of 3000 bar for the 9,3x53R
In practise there will be no difference between the two 9,3mm cartridges. Its similar like between a 9mm Mannlicher Schoenauer and 9mm Mauser or a 9,5mm Mannlicher Schoenauer and 375 NE 2,5”
An old german cartridge manual from 1973 shows how unknown the cartridge outside of finland was in this day’s.


The Sako load is called 9,3x53r Swiss here but on the other side CotW don’t know it at all.
For comparison here is the old Sako 9,3x57 load, same bullet, similar ballistic




The last cartridge in the row is the 9x53R

This is the russian designation but the cartridge is so close to the finish cartridge that I call it a “copy”.
Was surprise to see that a wikipedia article exist for the 9x53R:
The 9x53R rifle cartridge was designed as a hunting cartridge,it is a 7.62x54mmR necked up to accommodate a larger bullet. The Russian version was designed from a mister M.N. Blum in 1957 and the cartridge was produced from 1962–1977, again from early1990s-present.
This cartridge was not to produced for many years, but large volumes in private stock reach till the “Novosibirsk ammunition factory” make it possible also, until now, to meet the demand for these cartridges.
The Soviet hunting cartridge 9x53R was developed for hunting in the extreme north regions in the USSR.
It is calculated on large animals: sea seals, walrus, bear, moose. this cartridge should not be confused with 9.3x53R Finnish which has similar dimensions, but a sightly larger bullet: 9,30mm(366) against 9,27mm(.365), a 71.45mm overall cartridge length[7] against 67,8mm and, more important, higher maximum pressure – 3400 bar against 2900 bar for the russian version.
As a result shooting the finish cartridge is only safe in mosin action rifles.
The cartridge 9,3x53R Sako is ten times more expensive than 9x53R ammunition in Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x53R

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%D1%8553_%D0%BC%D0%BC

I don’t know why the russians call it 9x53R, also don’t know why they choose the very unusual .365 diameter. Maybe the same reason why the 9 mm Makarov pistol round have a .364 diameter bullet.
The rusian cartridge can shoot in every finish rifle. The finish round is also safe in russian made mosin rifles but make problems in russian made semi auto sporting rifles because of the higher pressure. To use it in russian single or double rifles is a question for a competent gunsmith and in a CIP member country also for the proof house.
the LVE plant from Novosibirsk was and is making the 9x53(9,3x53R Russian). some day someone will come in here with one of this Russian double rifles and wonder why it will not regulate with sako cartridges. If its true what we have learning about the regulation of classic double rifles handloads with a 15 gramm spitzer soft point at 647 m/sec will do it.
There is no doubt that such russian doubles are made for the LVE load.
This is the the LVE ballistic for the 9x53R round with the common copper washed steel case:



Hunting cartridge 9x53R SP, V25 av640-655 m/sec, 240.1(2450kgf/cm2) - 254.8 (2600kgf/cm2), At distance100 8cm max. , Bullet mass14.9-15.1 , Cartridge mass26.8-29.04g, Jacket material – copper.Case material – bimetal

A russian made brass case was not found till now, difference between cartridges made before 1977 and after 1990 is that the old rounds have a “188” code headstamp and the new rounds have the “LVE” headstamp.





There are new rebored mosin rifles in russia now available for the 9x53R and they also use the sako load sometimes. the original military stock is maybe not a bad decision under the very hard conditions in the russian norther territory.






if someone ever would export this from russia he will find enough gun nuts who need it.

Baikal is also making new rifles for the 9,3x53R but I havn’t heard that it’s available outside of russia. The DR is one of the futuristic O/U but the single shot stalking rifle can be used for a nice classic rework in my opinion .





Russian Cossacks hunting the Caspian tiger on the Iranian cost of the Caspian sea with mosin rifles,1912. I wonder if the horn player on the pic was blowing “attack” when the tiger was coming in sigth of the group.
The mosin action is a proofed dangerous game rifle!






ok, work have allready start’s - my gunmaker was becoming ill about the christmas day’s. I use the time to begin polishing the action. Most work was spend for sporterizing the trigger and trigger guard with the file.






the Mauser style safety turns to the “wrong” side


fire


safe

The bolt will get a colour case hardening.some screws I have for the project got a fire blueing
Before:

and then:


I hope to update this thread from time to time

Edited by CptCurl (14/01/10 12:05 AM)


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Carpetsahib
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150454 - 13/01/10 02:42 AM

Interesting project. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress. By the way, where did you find the Mauser type safety for the Mosin?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #150456 - 13/01/10 02:52 AM

Very interesting project. Yes please keep any updates coming.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #150473 - 13/01/10 06:07 AM

thank you
the mauser style wing safety was a finish modification for cavalry carbines. it is not very common and was the most expensive part of the lot. bokmal was knowing this and find it on a finish gun show, again thank you bokmal for your help

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet


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tinker
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150474 - 13/01/10 06:29 AM

YES YES YES!!



Can't wait to see more as this project.

Have fun with it Lancaster!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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simonsaorsa
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: tinker]
      #150478 - 13/01/10 06:47 AM

Fascinating project and great to learn so much about the 9.3X53R, which I had never heard of before.

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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: simonsaorsa]
      #150482 - 13/01/10 07:29 AM

Hi Lancaster, I'm happy to see that your project is progressing!

Just a small addition to the facts above; the 9,3x53R was developed at Sako in 1944. Lapua also offered a factory load for several years but discontinued it in the mid 1990ies.

--------------------
Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad...


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Sarg
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150486 - 13/01/10 08:57 AM

What a great post !
Too true , once you start things can get out of hand , I had one Lee Speed go through my hands , now have 10, BSA , Parker Hale , Lee Speed's , rifles & action waiting to be cleaned up or worked on !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Sarg]
      #150517 - 13/01/10 02:49 PM

I wish I knew how to say "Excellent Post!!!" in Suomen!

Very interesting.

There used to be a Colorado doctor AKA Kwahe on the Swede forum that had a M-N rebored to 9,3x53R.

Alas, all of his load data was lost when the site crashed.

I used to have a collection of M-N's years ago. VERY interesting rifle, especially the 28-30 which was my favorite.

Lancaster, a two-pin 28-30 or 39 trigger will help you a lot in getting a good trigger break. I learned over the years how to work a stock Russian M-N trigger to a good, crisp, light release, but using a Finn improved 28-30/39 trigger jumpstarts the effort quite a bit.

PLEASE keep posting on this project.

Ex-President of SAKO Henry Paasikivii sent me a dummy 9,3x53R round back in the mid-80's...I wish I'd built a rifle using a 28-20 or 39 as a base.

Keep us informed!

A Baikal in 9,3x53R????????

Oh, boy, I'd buy that one in a New York minute...

And the Russky's used to build the Medved semiauto rifle in 9x53R.

That must be quite a find, the Soviet ballistic/mechanical twin of today's Remington 750 in .35 Whelen, except the Russian version probably fuinctioned well!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #150552 - 13/01/10 09:34 PM

bringing such a work into the public will set you under pressure to be succesful!
Oh yes , the russian semi auto sporting rifle is the medved. had heard it that rifle and ammunition is exported to bulgaria but not more about it. the russian cartridge is very hard to find as a collector round here. it will be never exportetd in shooting quatity's in the evil empire here because the gun law only allow CIP proofed ammuntion, exept collector catridges.
even collector's where I buy some rare rounds asking me if I have it. some reloading points were be spoken in the M 95 moose killer post. the die set will be come from CH4D again, I have now 100 new brass cases and 60 Sako factory rounds. brass can be easy resized from 7,62x54r brass if you have it. the only brass case I found in my stuff was a russian sniper case with "166" headstamp -- LVE military load. resizing with the CH4D die is like making 9x57 from 8x57 brass.
the masterplan is to stay with the Kemira/ Vithavouri load. only problem is that nobody exported the 16,6gramm Sako softpoint bullet, maybe bokmal can again make a packet for me this year. the one rifle/ one load concept isn't so bad at all. for double rifle's it worked some years with satisfaction.
Wim Degol in belgium makes great bonded core bullets on demand, any size and weight, equally to woodleigh's in quality. will be a good idea to order the 16,6 gramm bullet also from him.
for bokmal information about the year 1944, the so called "peace" with the soviet union was made on the 19.9.44. iirc the now more or less obsolete but very interesting 7x33 was also develop in 1944. it seems to be that there some guy's in he finish ammunition industry were very quick to locking for a new peace time production.
did you have a pic of a 7x33 rifle, bokmal? I never see it before, believing it was sometimes THE cartridge for hunting wood grouse and black groose in Finland

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet

Edited by lancaster (13/01/10 09:38 PM)


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fuhrmann
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150562 - 13/01/10 10:53 PM

Quote:

.....
the masterplan is to stay with the Kemira/ Vithavouri load. only problem is that nobody exported the 16,6gramm Sako softpoint bullet, maybe bokmal can again make a packet for me this year. the one rifle/ one load concept isn't so bad at all. for double rifle's it worked some years with satisfaction.
.....




Hi Lancaster,

a fine project, and very interesting reading!
Do not ignore the 16.5 gram GECO bullet!

Greetings,
Fuhrmann


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: fuhrmann]
      #150580 - 14/01/10 12:59 AM


SAKO L46 in 7x33

And here is the cartride:


I have to say that the Mosin above without maganine is mine. In fact, it still have an ordinary magazine but in some day i'll make it looks a like in picture.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by CptCurl (16/01/10 12:18 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #150583 - 14/01/10 01:15 AM

Lancaster;

The old 28-30 and 39 triggers used to be had here for a few dollars. I should have bought a hundred of them...

They make improving the letoff very easy, tho it can be done with a normal factory M-N trigger with some difficulty. But it can be done. Are the 39 triggers available there in Finland as spare parts?

Please keep this project alive here on NE.

Also, as I understand it, the front of the magazine must be opened up a little to allow smooth feeding of the 9,3 round?

I think u are right about the use of similar boring for Makarov and "9x54R/9x53R". Why? Who knows, but maybe barrel drilling equipment was available for such. The Russians have made some work with 9,3 caliber military loads for sniper purposes also, but I think the more modern 9,3x64 loadings were common .366.

Anyway, some enterprising American should resurrect the 9,3x53R here. We are AWASH with millions {probably} of worn out M-N's!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #150585 - 14/01/10 01:19 AM

did you reload for your rifle igorrock? is this picture from gunboards showing the rifle without magazin or did you have a special made magazin? it would be fine to see pics how it works. I have posted here pics of an austrian mannlicher M 95 sporter with such a unique handmade magazin being flush with the stock.
isnt the 7x33 a rimless botleneck cartridge?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet


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lancaster
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150588 - 14/01/10 01:27 AM

Here is the M 95 sporter I was talking about




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet

Edited by CptCurl (16/01/10 12:18 AM)


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Carpetsahib
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Igorrock]
      #150589 - 14/01/10 01:34 AM

Quote:


SAKO L46 in 7x33

And here is the cartride:


I have to say that the Mosin above without maganine is mine. In fact, it still have an ordinary magazine but in some day i'll make it looks a like in picture.


If you are referring to the Mosin in Lancaster's post that has a flush magazine, please post additional pictures! Also, please post pictures of the interesting scope mount on that rifle.

Edited by CptCurl (16/01/10 12:20 AM)


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Carpetsahib
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150590 - 14/01/10 01:42 AM

Quote:

thank you
the mauser style wing safety was a finish modification for cavalry carbines. it is not very common and was the most expensive part of the lot. bokmal was knowing this and find it on a finish gun show, again thank you bokmal for your help


Very interesting. If I understand the method of operation, the front of the safety has a lug that bears on the back of the bolt body. As the safety is turned over from the safe to the fire position, the lug is moved out of position and the rifle is ready to fire. Do you have to modify the bolt body to provide clearance? Additional pictures would be most welcome.

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Carpetsahib
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150622 - 14/01/10 07:11 AM


Lancaster,

More information on this rifle, please.....Such as, details on the magazine modification, scope mount, caliber, etc. This is a great looking rifle, by the way!


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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #150640 - 14/01/10 01:26 PM

Yes, more details please. Very nice rifle.

The M-N is a sleeper.

Really impressive accuracy potential, too.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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mehulkamdar
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150692 - 15/01/10 06:26 AM

Lancaster,

I worked in Russia a long time ago and not many Medved rifles were built even back then. I knew of one which was with a Duma member whom I met in 94, but have seen no other. I think the Medveds must have died out when the Russians switched to the 9.3x64 round for their Dragunov based hunting rifles from the mid 1990s onwards. I have heard about some Medved rifles in German collections but have not heard from any actual owner - if any are there, they must have been gifts to senior Communist Party members in east Germany in the Cold War years and they must have got sold since to whoever owns them now. It would be interesting to see what turns up in Bulgaria - it was a popular spot for senior Soviet officials to hunt bear in and some would have found their way there as you point out.

Lovely project and please keep the pictures and information coming. Maybe this could become an article for our E-zine?



Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Bokmal
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150697 - 15/01/10 08:11 AM

Quote:

.only problem is that nobody exported the 16,6gramm Sako softpoint bullet, maybe bokmal can again make a packet for me this year.



How many do you want?

My friend Igorrock must have slipped on the keyboard; the bottlenecked 7x33 Sako looks like this (next to a .222 and a 7,62x39):



The history behind the 7x33 is that Sako experimented with what could be made with 9mm case machinery and brass stock. The 7x33 was the result. It was introduced with the L46 rifle (in Igorrocks pic) at a Fair in Stockholm in 1945. This was the only rifle ever factory chambered for this cartridge.

Edited by CptCurl (16/01/10 12:21 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Bokmal]
      #150703 - 15/01/10 10:14 AM

You are right, Bokmal. My picture of 7x33 is uncorrect. I was little busy when setting that picture.

The hidden magazine for Mosin is still an idea in my head but sooner or later it will come to concrete form.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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Grenadier
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: lancaster]
      #150705 - 15/01/10 10:44 AM

Several years ago I handled one that was superbly executed. It had nice checkering, express sights, and was finished as you would expect a fine rifle to be finished. Your project could get interesting. Here is a picture of a sporter as food for thought.

Mosin Sporter

~

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9.3x57
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Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: Grenadier]
      #150717 - 15/01/10 12:40 PM

Thanks Bokmal...

That 7x33 wasn't the one I knew, but wasn't sure enough to mention it.


As for the sporter, Grenadier, yes, another nice one.

I have hunted with the M-N. I shot a bear with one, but it was a 39 in military condition. A bear to lug around that rifle was!! They need a bit of trimming!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 2475
Loc: where playmobil get plates
Re: The best Mosin sporting rifle project in world history [Re: 9.3x57]
      #150761 - 15/01/10 09:14 PM

this also a unusual rifle worthy to note, the stock is not bad at all.


the little 7x33 is an interesting little plinking round, it must have his own advantage for the hunting situation it was intended. the 7mm bullet is maybe a big headache if you try to reload. I dont know if its in production, did you know it? is the little sako rifle a single shot or have it a magazin?
Igorrock,for another mosin magazin: C.G.Haenel have made M 88 sporting rifle's with a mauser zick-zack magazin, maybe this can also be done with a mosin. the mannlicher M 95 I post was noted to a have 3 shot magazin. doubtless someone has cut the original magazin.
My idea was to make a perfect finish hunting rifle. its all in the part's you have only make it visible.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet

Edited by CptCurl (16/01/10 12:21 AM)


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