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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
577 vs 600 nitro which is the best
      #150318 - 12/01/10 07:36 AM

I spoke to a well known and infamous PH this weekend, who claims the 600NE is far superior to the 577NE, as well as everything else when it comes to DG.

Is this BS or the truth? I own a 577NE but have not hunted with it yet, so I have no reference with which to compare/argue.

I believe this is really an argument about bullet/game penetration. He (the PH) claims there is no penetration problems with the 600NE, swears by them.

BS-

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #150422 - 12/01/10 11:35 PM

In my opinion the best rifle is the one you own!!!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #150425 - 13/01/10 12:24 AM

The .577 was much more popular and offered more widely. I think you made the right choice. As for penetration, I have heard stories about the .600 lacking penetration, but it is a trade off between bullet diameter and bullet weight, as they are both pretty much the same velocity. I would have thought that the extra 200 grains of bullet would make up for the extra diameter, but have not done any objective tests! I have 2 cases standing side by side now and the .577 looks no less impressive than the .600 either! .600 rifle would be at least a pound if not 2 or 3 heavier. All in all I'd say the .577 is just more useable, although if it were me I'd have gone with the 2-3/4 case
How about a photo of your .577?

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Der_Jaeger
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Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #150429 - 13/01/10 12:33 AM



In general, if a bigger bullet of the same construction and sectional density is pushed at the same velocity as a smaller bullet, the smaller bullet will out penetrate the larger diameter bullet. This is common sense since the larger caliber bullet encounters a greater amount of resistance. Now, take the .600 Nitro and push it to 2400 fps, and the penetration will be deeper.....both into the animal AND into your shoulder

--------------------

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #150437 - 13/01/10 01:06 AM

Agree, but Woodleigh FMJ .577 750gr SD=.313
whereas Woodleigh FMJ .600 900gr SD=.334
So which should penetrate further...?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #150443 - 13/01/10 01:44 AM

Ogive shape, materials & method of construction and impact speed will be more of a restricter to penetration than SD when they are so close, I would guess.

Due to the more pointy shape of the .577's, I would suspect similar constructed and velocity .577's would penetrate more deeply.

How much penetration is needed? The more blunt, rounded & larger diameter bullet will impact with more effect. This is why round balls are so effective on game than mor epointy elongated bullets.

As long as penetration is sufficient for the use, the larger diameter blunt bullet will hit 'harder' & have more 'effect' on the animal.

Either will probably detach your retinas with enough shooting.

Of course, I course I have neither and therefore, agree whole heartedly with Allen.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: DarylS]
      #150450 - 13/01/10 02:30 AM

Actually I am not sure you are correct about penetration, as I have found that flat nose solids penetrate deeper than round nose solids, on ele and buff. So would a more blunt RN penetrate more or less than a less blunt RN? I do not know. We would have to go shoot some ele to be sure.

However, as the former owner of a .600 NE, I cannot recommend the caliber to anyone but the most brutish of he-men, as the recoil from just 3 shots would put me in bed feeling ill for the rest of the day.

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500grains
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #150451 - 13/01/10 02:31 AM

Quote:

I spoke to a well known and infamous PH this weekend, who claims the 600NE is far superior to the 577NE, as well as everything else when it comes to DG.




If the PH has the initials MS, he is just engaged in marketing for his videos. On buffalo there is no difference between a .577 and a .600 as both way overmatch the animal.

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Der_Jaeger
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Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: 500grains]
      #150460 - 13/01/10 03:19 AM

Realistically, when contemplating the effects of two similarly sized and constructed bullets at similar velocities, differing only by 23 hundreths of an inch, on an animal weighing 10,000 lbs., the difference to that animal is only a discussion for academicians. That's the fun part of discussing best calibers: it's probably more important to the hunter than the hunted.

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (13/01/10 11:17 PM)

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #150463 - 13/01/10 03:41 AM

Exactly Der Jaeger, .577's and .600's were only ever used as back up by pro ivory hunters, they never carried them themselves and rarely used them (good shots with the lighter stuff). When the ivory "business" dried up nearly all normal pros, guides etc went the .470/.500 route even the cullers. I see no reason to buy a .577 or .600 unless you WANT to own one, you will never need it in todays world. Doesn't mean you shouldn't want one though but I think a .500 is a better choice,
just my 5 centimos worth best, Mike

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450_366
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #150470 - 13/01/10 05:48 AM

I did see a film once and the PH was probably the best in the world and he used a 600, so wouldnt that make it the best?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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mickey
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: 450_366]
      #150491 - 13/01/10 10:45 AM

Mike Bailey

Except for Jim Sutherland.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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srose
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Reged: 30/09/05
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Loc: North Carolina
Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: mickey]
      #150493 - 13/01/10 11:05 AM

Fire power is placing one bullet in the right place. I 303 that hits the brain will kill better that a 600 that misses it. I have shot buffalo and elephant with a 470 and got plenty of penetration. I have a 577 and a 500 but will take my 470 over both of them. Most people can't handle the weight and recoil of a 470. Why hinder yourself with a much heavier gun. I walked no almost ran for 5 hrs in 118 degree heat after buffalo this year. I surely didn't need 4 to 5 lbs more in my hand.

Sam

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DarylS
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: srose]
      #150501 - 13/01/10 12:50 PM

.500 - I made the statement only on the appearance of the two. The .577 having an ogive as-in the typical .577 Kynock-type bullet, whereas all the .600's I've seen are round-ball-ish in shape. I have also read years ago, the .577 well outpenetrated the .600, however the bluff nosed .600 did smack harder due to it's shape with slightly larger diameter. Perhaps that has changed in more modern times? To an elephant I suspect the difference in bore size or the difference in section density means little whereas construction is the important factor.

If both are more than necessary with most any ammo, this is all merely conversation and nit-picking.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
Posts: 256
Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...
Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: DarylS]
      #150539 - 13/01/10 07:17 PM

These two calibers were invented to shoot the biggest

beasts within just a few yards, in thick vegetation,

or when you darn well expected a true charge. 577 is

usually lighter, for the guy who carries his own. Best

info is that with new proper bullets both penetrate more

than enough. I suppose, that there could have been some

small number of situations in past years/decades, in

which a 577 NE was used, and it "failed" so to speak,

and that if the man would have had a 600 NE, and fired

into the exact same spot on the beast, that the results

would have been as desired due to the extra energy from

the 600. I suppose. But man, really, how many times could

it really have happened? With that said I'd love to

shoot an old 600 NE to see what it's like, [I've fired

a new Searcy 577 NE]. And If I could handle shooting

the 600 that's the one I'd like to own because for ME,

that's the one, of the two being discussed, that has the

magic in my opinion.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #150614 - 14/01/10 05:40 AM

Quote:

I spoke to a well known and infamous PH this weekend, who claims the 600NE is far superior to the 577NE, as well as everything else when it comes to DG.

Is this BS or the truth? I own a 577NE but have not hunted with it yet, so I have no reference with which to compare/argue.

I believe this is really an argument about bullet/game penetration. He (the PH) claims there is no penetration problems with the 600NE, swears by them.

BS-



It appears we can not in any scientific terms choose a clear winner, so one must look at other variables.

Based purely on mathematics the 600NE has an energy and section density advantage.

The 577NE an ease of use advantage based on the lighter weight (which some of you preferred) and less recoil.

Both achieve greater than 7000 foot pounds of energy which is massive by any standard.

I believe reloading the 577NE to be cheaper, brass and bullets easier to come by, although still expensive compared to .458 cartridges.

Stopping power, as defined by many to be the ability of a gun to stop a charge either by turning or killing of the animal. This is difficult if not impossible to quantify IMHO. Both have enough energy down range to kill anything on this planet, with some to spare I would venture. I have little faith in TKO numbers, but if one believes in these, the 600NE is the leader.

So based on the math, the 600NE should have the advantage in killing/terminal ballistics. The 577 in ease of use and cost. But does the ease of use then give an advantage in killing/terminal ballistics?

Like I said no clear winner. So I base my choice on ease of use and pick the 577NE, IMHO.

Of course we are leaving out of the discussion many other cartridges that produce far more energy than either of these, however, they are neither main stream, nor, IMO, practical in the field.

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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1980E26
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Reged: 03/05/05
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #150836 - 16/01/10 03:53 PM


The 600 bullet profile allows for better straight line penetration than the RN of the .577-750gr. The 577/750 Woodleigh is too pointed for deep straight line penetration. Look at the bullet penetration tests listed over at Accurate Reloading that have been done by Michael458. The 900gr Woodleigh solid was tested at 600NE velocities and it was straight for 50". Given the choice of a vintage .577NE or .600NE I would definately choose the big 6. I am confident that most would agree with that choice.

BR

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #150847 - 16/01/10 08:21 PM

Quote:



Stopping power, as defined by many to be the ability of a gun to stop a charge either by turning or killing of the animal. This is difficult if not impossible to quantify IMHO. Both have enough energy down range to kill anything on this planet, with some to spare I would venture. I have little faith in TKO numbers, but if one believes in these, the 600NE is the leader.





Agree 100% regarding the Taylor Knock-out Formula.

The formula reads: velocity in feet per second, times bullet weight in grains, times caliber as a decimal, divided by 7000.

On the surface, this sounds plausible because, hey, it's a scientific formula.

However........If it were really that simple, I can convince myself that, based on this formula, I'm much better off hunting Brown Bear on Kodiak Island armed with 6 baseballs than I am with a .375 H&H.

A baseball weighs 2,231 grains and is approximately 2.9 caliber. I figure most people, even women, can throw one at least 50 feet per second. Remember, that 100 miles per hour is about 147 ft/s. According to the TKO formula, my fastball would be better Grizzly medicine than a 375 H&H.

No, throw a baseball at 100 feet per second, or 60 mph, and you can tackle just about anything in any situation, anywhere.

Let's not even get to the powerful effects of a 16lb bowling ball launched underhanded in typical bowling fashion. The big benefit is NO RECOIL!!!!

To me, the .577-3" Nitro Express is truly a magnificent cartridge and really posseses the "magic". From India to Africa, this cartridge has done it all by some of the best. The drawback is just pure unadulterated recoil. I shot one at the Vintage Cup and it'll make your brain slip a bit inside your skull. Since both cartridges can do it all in any situation, I personally would take the .577 because it just has a better name!

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (16/01/10 08:23 PM)

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wadeb
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #151132 - 19/01/10 01:41 PM

I have both rifles and have used them both in Tanzania on buffalo. Both work superbly as they are both classic elephant stoppers and therefore, why should'nt they work on buffalo, provided you do your part. My .577 weighs in at 13.5 pounds and the .600 at 15.5 pounds and in fact, I find the recoil of the .600 to be less(regulated at the 100gr cordite load)however, IMO both are extremely tolerable. I have shot 9 buffalo with the .577 and 12 with the .600 and can say that both are sledgehammers in every way, especially if you hit bone. I have not had to face a charge with either, but I am confident that with either one of these rifles in hand, things should go well provided I aim relatively straight. The point is I like both rifles and I think that they are both just as good but I think that I would lean slightly towards the .600 simply because the rifle that I have fits me so well and is very accurate(I have lungshot an impala with it at 150 yards) I also like the blunt shape of the bullet. The shells are a little expensive, but the heads are the same price as the .577.
With regards to lugging a heavy rifle about all day, I feel that, just like any exercise, you merely need to practice and it gets easier. After all, four pounds extra weight, to me is not much at all.

wadeb

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FireHunter
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: wadeb]
      #151133 - 19/01/10 02:06 PM

I was wondering when you were going to find this Wade!

I had the pleasure of shooting Wade's 600NE just last month and it is very tolerable. I agree completely with the notion that fit of the firearm to the person is far more important than the little bit of terminal ballistic difference between the two calibers. With the good fit of the 600 I was able to tolerate recoil which in turn led to surprising accuracy. I would have been happy to just hit the paper but was able to get within a couple of inches of the bullseye at 50 yards - freearm. I was able to watch (on video) the slow-motion bullet impact of the 900 grain Woodleigh into the brisket of a Buffalo and the skin, muscle, bone, and blood reaction is absolutely impressive. I have watched the impacts of 470NE's and 500NE's on buffalo and sometimes wondered if they actually hit the animal because there was no immediate reaction. With the 600NE there is no doubt of a positive hit.

On the other hand, that 600NE is heavy! I'm sure it would take me practice to carry that all day.

Of course, every shooter can be accurate with the right weapon and the 600NE is no different - Wade's 150 yard shot on the impala confirms this.

--------------------
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!

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DarylS
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: FireHunter]
      #151180 - 20/01/10 01:28 AM

Hary Pope felt the proper weight of a man's offhand rifle was 16 pounds and 12 pounds for a women. In those days, they shot 50 to 100 shot matches, not an easy thing to do with a rifle that's too heavy. What this trivia means, is that, as firehunter says, one must practise and develop the muscle tone needed - not an insurmoutable thing to do for someone serious about shooting what he/she wants.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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vigillinus
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: DarylS]
      #152032 - 27/01/10 06:20 PM

In my 20s I shot a .577 a fair amount and could just about handle it. I tried an 8 bore BP and couldn't. I never fired a .600 but suspect it would have been out of my reach. Now that I am 80 I am sure I can still manage a .22LR. After all, there is always the earhole shot.

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rigbymauser
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #152035 - 27/01/10 07:31 PM

Quote:

I spoke to a well known and infamous PH this weekend, who claims the 600NE is far superior to the 577NE, as well as everything else when it comes to DG.

BS-



I wonder if this hunter as fired an 8bore rifle packed with 12 drams + 1400grain of hard lead??.

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gatsby
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: rigbymauser]
      #152059 - 28/01/10 04:41 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I spoke to a well known and infamous PH this weekend, who claims the 600NE is far superior to the 577NE, as well as everything else when it comes to DG.

BS-



I wonder if this hunter as fired an 8bore rifle packed with 12 drams + 1400grain of hard lead??.



You will never convince the "nitro" guys but I believe a big 10 to be equal a .600 and an 8 or a big 4 well.....





so if bigger is best; What is best?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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AfricanHunter
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Re: 577 vs 600 nitro which is the best [Re: 500grains]
      #152127 - 29/01/10 10:23 AM

Come on Danny Boy, toughen up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have used both of the calibers on elephant and I tend to agree with you in that I am not sure which penetrates best. However, I am convince, in my limited use, that the .600 hits harder and they both penetrate enough. I have ponder the same issue of the more pointed .577 and the blunter .620. If every one want flat nose now, then the nod should go to the .620.
Now my .600 that I hunted with was an H&H proofed @ 110 and I loaded accordingly. If I remember correctly all the .577s I used were late Kynoch from just before they originally shut down. (Berdan primed and modified cordite)

The .600's are too heavy for a half crippled old man man to lug around or I'd have one. I kinda liked the VC I handled at their booth in Dallas, but I sure like the way my H&H Royal 500/450 handles shoots and kills.

Anyway, glad to see you aren't banned here!

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