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lancaster
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the last mysterys in gun history
      #147203 - 05/12/09 12:17 AM

there are some mysteries in gun history I would like to post and ask nitrox if its possible to fix for the future on the top. Maybe someone , someday will knowing more about this or have similar puzzle’s.

1. the 10,75mm cartridge in the 1914 Springers Erben, Vienna 1914 catalog here










build in hammerless double and single shoot stalking rifles. Springers Erben is often seen in the same leaque like Holland & Holland.
In this time 24 austrain crowns are worth 5 dollar or 1 sovereign.

its not one of the Gruendig cartridges:10,75 x45R
x52R
x65R
this cases are conical. I didn’t find a suitable cartridge in the Georg Roth list.
This Hirtenberger made 10,75 x52R on 8x57 IR base looks similar like one in the catalog


Who know such a Springer rifle or the cartridge?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (06/12/09 12:14 AM)


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500Nitro
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #147205 - 05/12/09 12:28 AM


I have heard of one J Springer rifle here in Aus but that is all.

I am just trying to remember who owns or owned it. It will come back to me.


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: 500Nitro]
      #147206 - 05/12/09 12:50 AM

another “Austrian”problem, in the 1914 Franz Sodia/ Ferlach catalog is a new Mannlicher M 95 sporting rifle with half or full stock chambered for a 11,15mm full nitro cartridge.





This rifle was maybe only build in one or two examples because of the great war that started this year. I wasn’t able to find a possible cartridge for such an interesting chambering. All 11,15mm cartridges from the 11mm Montenegrin revolver to the 11,15x60R mauser M 71 are old style blackpowder rounds. Only the 11,2x60 Schueler , made to measure the Mauser 98 military action comes near to Sodia description: The Mannlicher M 95 repeaing rifle “Exzelsior” calibre 11,15mm with softpoint jacket bullet and nitropowder load is an perfect mountain rifle for hunting bears, wild boars etc., flatness of trajectory and great penetration.

I am looking for a case with a length between 50 and 60 mm and the base/rim diameter of the 8x50R Mannlicher. Remember that the mannlicher action needs the charger.


8x50R Mannlicher case, battlefield found
11,5x50R Werndl( the mother case for the 8x50R)
11,15x52R one of the low powered blackpowder rounds
11,2x60 Schueler

Someone had have made a similar round for the M 95 like August Schueler have made with his 11,2x60 for the Mauser.
If I found this cartridge someday its possible that a new sporter will be build with a Ruck-Zuck action.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (06/12/09 12:14 AM)


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Huvius
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #147210 - 05/12/09 01:33 AM

You could try Springer's themselves.
When I inquired about my Springer, the told me it was originally chambered in 10.75 (mine has been rebarrelled) - they didn't specify the cartridge length though. I also have a copy of that Springer catalogue and my gun is just as the one illustrated so I am inclined to think that this was the original chambering.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: Huvius]
      #147212 - 05/12/09 01:52 AM

the last problem for this day

there exist one or more M 1886 Lebel sporting rifles in 445 Grasset Nitro express. What I know is that Grasset was a gunmaker in Paris around 1914. this pic shows a simple sporterized military rifle.


New short barrel, the original fore-end with magazine cut for holding maybe 4-5 rounds in the tubular magazine.
.445 is the bullet diameter measured in inch of the 11x59R Gras cartridge.
The lebel rifle is always of special interest for me because if you ask if I have my first rifle: Yes. It was a world war relict without stock and a bulge in the barrel that I have got in the age of 14.
The rifle was cleaned, stocked and when times have changed years ago now it was legalized.


I believe that Grasset used the 11x59R Gras case and make a full power nitro round from this again in similar way like August Schüler in Suhl created the 11,2x60 from the 11,15x60R mauser .
This cartridge was maybe similar to the WW 1 11x59R Vickers, simply a nitro loaded Gras cartridge with full metal jacket for heavy machine guns.
The lebel action with his tubular magazine is a similar problem like a mannlicher magazine. The cartridge needs similar length and base/rim diameter like the 8x50R Lebel round to work in this.



8x50R Lebel military load
8x50R Lebel handload
11x59R Gras
11x59R Vickers
11,15x60 R Mauser
11,2x60 Schueler

The Gras case was the mother case for the 8mm Lebel, they differ only because the Gras have the Mauser A base rim. In all it would make a simple work to change the Gras rim or the Lebel bolt head.
The 11mm Gras and the Vickers cartridge working in the lebel action but the Vickers with the short bullet will make problems in the magazine.




If Grasset have load his cartridge with Gras brass the oal was like the 8mm Lebel Round. It must have been a full metal and also a softpoint load in the 10,75x68 Mauser class and I think was available only as a handload in Grasset’s shop.
No question that it never had a chance against the Mauser M 98

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (06/12/09 12:15 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #147213 - 05/12/09 01:53 AM

thank you for looking , all input is welcome

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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mehulkamdar
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #147322 - 06/12/09 11:40 AM

One expert on rare cartridges who may be able to help is Michael Reuter of http://www.sammlermunition.de/ You can write to him with a link to this thread, or, if you want, I would be happy to do this. He has been most helpful with information on some obscure rounds and he has a formidable collection of rare cartridges of his own.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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450_366
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #147338 - 06/12/09 08:12 PM

Like this one?



There is one for sale here http://www.munitionsauktion.de/browse.php?cat_id=2&sessionid=&lang=ger

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by CptCurl (06/12/09 11:03 PM)


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ellenbr
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: 450_366]
      #147347 - 07/12/09 01:02 AM

Lancaster:

Do you have any rim, base, neck length dimensions or data? Or do you have a chamber cast by chance?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: ellenbr]
      #147462 - 08/12/09 11:37 PM

sorry, I dont have any data for the cartridges I am looking for. this would make much more simple, of course.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Collath_500BPE
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #148058 - 16/12/09 01:39 AM

Hi lancaster,
I think you are looking for the old 10,75x60R. But also at that time they built rifle with 10,75x70R Collath. In the old catalogs from Springer there where also on the last pages some details of the used cartridges.Send me a copy of the last 3 pages via PM and I will help you.
regards from Austria
Johann


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #148963 - 28/12/09 12:52 AM

hello johann
this is from a 1914 catalog and the catalog dont have anything about the cartridges. the 10,75x60R is new to me. did you have any data about this cartridge.

guten rutsch

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Collath_500BPE
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #150256 - 12/01/10 12:21 AM

Hi lancaster,
I keep 2 cartridges 10,75 x 52 R Springer in my hands and I'll take pictures in the next days. For the moment I'm to busy.
regards Johann


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #150295 - 12/01/10 03:38 AM

hello johann

I have found pics of the 10,75x52R Springer in two french books, not under sporting but experimental military rounds. it is described as a cartridge designed for the KuK navy with a full metal jacket, Hirtenberger made in 1908 - very strange!?!
I dont know why the KUK navy would need such a round in this time. the german navy have use of course insert barrels in canons for the 11,2x60R mauser but this was a budget thing for using old ammo stocks .



for all who thinking that the 10,75x68 isn't having enough power here is also a french military load for a squeezed bore riffel

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (12/01/10 02:33 PM)


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Collath_500BPE
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #150453 - 13/01/10 02:38 AM

Hi lancaster,
here are some pics of 10,75x52R Springer cartridges
regards Johann







Edited by CptCurl (13/01/10 11:27 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #150472 - 13/01/10 06:03 AM

this looks like a winner johann, what is the headstamp? holding this beside a 10,75x68 show's a serious big game round! the mother case must be in the 450 NE class but never the 8x57IR.
please give me rim diameter and thickness, base, shoulder and neck diameter and length from rim to shoulder, in the name of science.
do you have an explanation for the Kuk navy story in my books? maybe Springer was making the first double for Admiral Horthy.
by the way I have a book here, somewhere printed in 1938 from a german explorer who was on tour with the austro-hungarian count Almasy in the libyan dessert. Almasy is well known from the movie "the english patient". he decribe how he meet the count again in 1934/35 in Karthoum when Almasy was the guide and PH for the brother of Admiral Horthy on a hunting trip into the Sudan.
the good old day when the ship goes every week from Triest to Alexandria.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #150841 - 16/01/10 05:23 PM

K. und K. (also expressed as K.K. and K. u K.), means Kaiserlich und Königlich. The expression means "Imperial and Royal" and tends to refer mostly to the time of Kaiser Franz-Joseph of Austria who was then Kaiser of Austria but also, I think, King of Hungary. So K.u K. navy, means the Royal Austrian Navy of this period. The same term attaches to many other government departments and officials, even the Royal hunting guides.

Admiral Horthy played a key role in getting chamois to New Zealand, he being the Austrian Kaiser's aide-de-camp when Ritter von Honnel returned from a visit by the naval ship Panther to New Zealand. Vom Honnel conveyed the NZ government's keen desire to obtain these animals, and Horthy, a keen hunter, was able to confirm the suitablity of the Southern Alps as he too had been on a similar trip previously. There's a new book out "Chamois-a New Zealand Hunter's Handbook" that describes some of this history this further.


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #150845 - 16/01/10 07:19 PM

amazingly how things hang into each other, isn't it!
I allways wonder how and when the chamois came to new zealand. think you have the true alpine chamois Rupicapra r.rupicapra now. there were made a lot of mistakes for bringing new animals into the colony's but the chamois you dont want to miss anymore I suspect.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #151802 - 25/01/10 09:49 PM

When I mention Almasy here was talking about this topic at home also. My girl friend then order his book”schwimmer in der wüste”( swimmer in the dessert) because it wasn’t in our private library. Because there is only a german edition its maybe for interest of you to notice the small hunting related part.
He has a chapter about the barbary sheep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_sheep in egypt, in years after WW 1 also near to extinction. This subspecies is found again some years ago in egypt iirc.
Hunting this animal there under true dessert condition was pricelees for sportsman.
Almasy friend and protector, the egytian prince kemal el din was 1925 the first time in the uvenat mountains.
the prince was hunting for two weeks and don’t see a single sheep. He was talking with the native’s sheikh about let his mans looking for a good sheep and if they know one’s location send a message to the oasis al kufra
where the post was going to sollum, then with ship to alexandria and to kairo. There wasn’t a conection between this part of the lybian dessert and the nile in this time. Month later the letter arive in kairo that a very good male sheep was found. A letter is going back that the prince will arive in 3 weeks and he will give the tribe 20 camel’s if he can take the trophy and the fur back home.
No doubt this was a true present of a prince in the dessert.
The noble hunter arrive, the long greeting happen and the prince asking when the hunt will start. The sheikh answer: my lord, to follow your command my slave Zukkar have killed the animal this morning on the mountain. You will find the trophy and the fur in my modest home.
The prince was thinking something in the moment but give the 20 camels because this simple mind of sheikh would have never understood what was wrong.
In 1930 when prince kemal told almasy the story and show him the trophy it was the world record for the lybian dessert subspecies. Maybe something reading this have the roland ward book and can look if it’s contain this.


in the sudan, around 1930, two not so bad nil buffalo’s and the suitable way to transport them
see more in” Sudan notes and records “XIII/2 London 1930


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (25/01/10 10:35 PM)


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kuduae
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #151851 - 26/01/10 07:43 AM

According to Dixon, European Sporting Cartridges, the 10.75x52R Springer aka 10.75x52R Mannlicher was based on the 8x50R Mannlicher case, so you can probably make cases from 8x56R, 9.3x53R or 7.62x54R. The rimless version would require turning off the rim and cutting a new extractor groove.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by kuduae (26/01/10 07:46 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: kuduae]
      #151924 - 26/01/10 08:56 PM

on collath pics it looks like the base diameter is bigger than the 10,75x68 round. would not be surprised if the basic case is actually the 450 NE. I hope that collath comes back and is giving the base/rim diameter of his rounds. when its made from a 8x50R mannlicher basic case the 9,3x53R Finish would indeed be a good start.
problem is that I have to look then for 10,75 and a 11,15mm(for the franz sodia rifle)with this base diameter

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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kuduae
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #152000 - 27/01/10 09:50 AM

Lancaster, there may be some optical illusion when looking at collath's photos: You are comparing a matte, rimmed cartridge and a high gloss rimless one. Here are the base dimensions from Dixon's book:
.450 E Express: base 13.9mm = .547",rim 15.65mm = .616"
10.75x68: base 12.55mm = .494", rim 12.55mm = .494"
10.75x52R and 8x50R: base 12.5mm = .492" ,rim 14mm = .551"
The Zultner, Vienna 1929 catalog also lists this cartridge, but calls it "Nr. 593 Mauser, 10.75X52 mit Rand"!
The "11.15mm cartridge loaded with copper-jacket expanding bullets and smokeless powder" in Franz Sodia's 1914 catalog remains a mystery to me too. As he offers it in Mannlicher M95 straight-pull actions it must have the same basic dimensions again like the 8x50R Mannlicher cartridge, as other dimensions would have required a complete redesign of the Mannlicher Magazine and clip. The description with the "copper jacket bullet" IMHO points to some sort of Nitro-for-black load.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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Collath_500BPE
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #152608 - 02/02/10 10:07 PM

Hi lancaster,
I finished the job on a ZEISS 3-D gauging machine to get the best results concerning dimensiones.With these datas you are able to produce your own reloading tools.
regards from the other side of the world.
Johann



Edited by CptCurl (08/02/10 01:11 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #152621 - 03/02/10 01:48 AM

thank you very much collath! this looks indeed like a 8x50R mannlicher base.maybe a round for a reworked Mannlicher ruck zuck hunting rifle future project. simply to made from the the new 8x56R brass. I will keep it in mind for the case that the franz sodia 11mm hunting round will not be find.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: the last mysterys in gun history [Re: lancaster]
      #154179 - 19/02/10 04:50 AM

finaly I got an answer from Springer about the 10,75x52R:

" danke für Ihre Anfrage. Leider haben wir keine Lagerreibahlen mehr im
Bestand. Anbei aus einem alten Katalog die Auflistung der Patronen die wir in
unseren Waffen gebaut haben. Ladedaten hat vielleicht die Fa.Waffen Dorfner
in Wien; zu finden im Internet.

Hoffe damit gedient zu haben und verbleibe

mfg
Christian Johann Springer

Joh. Springer's Erben Handels GmbH

Sitz: Josefsgasse 10, 1080 Wien, Austria "

thank you for your inquiry. sorry to say we dont have a chamber reamer in our house anymore. with this mail sending you a scan from an old catalog with the cartridges we have used in our rifles. maybe the firm Waffen Dorfner in vienna have the loading data for this cartridge.

regards
Christian Johann Springer



Sic transit gloria mundi

here is the scan, must have been printed after march 1925 because price is in schilling, also the mannlicher schoenauer is to have in 7x64, 8x60 and 30 06



also got an e-mail from Sodia/Salzburg that they dont have anything about the 11,15mm M 95 rifle anymore
I think one problem of three is solved. I keep the 10,75x52R springer as a future project in mind for a Mannlicher M 95 sporter some day.
Till then having enough time to find the muzzle velocity and maybe max. pressure for this round.

also interesting for Jackel, they build rifles in 9x63 Florstedt, another catalog showing this round
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=142974&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
and the rare 9x63R also

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (01/03/10 11:08 PM)


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