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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
.577 BPE
      #146964 - 30/11/09 11:18 AM

I shot my .577 2 3/4" express today. Off hand 50 yards at the 18" steel plate. 6 shots - 5 hits.

Had one hang-fire.

Curl,

What primers do you use?

I followed you load exactly: 68 grains IMR 4198 and three felt wads on top of a PP 560 grain Montana lead bullet. Would a card over powder help?

BTW - thanks again for that tip, at $7000 it was the best .577 buy ever.

Blair

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: bonanza]
      #146975 - 30/11/09 02:41 PM

I've never had any miss fires with stiff foam wads.

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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bonanza
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #146979 - 30/11/09 09:08 PM

I said hang-fire.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5310
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: .577 BPE [Re: bonanza]
      #146982 - 30/11/09 11:07 PM

Blair,

I'm using Fed 215 primers. I don't think I would use a card wad.

Actually the load you mentioned is too slow in my rifle. I carefully boosted my powder a bit to get good regulation and to match original velocity. What is your velocity?

I experienced a hang fire only once with a load of Varget in the .577. It seems to be a bit harder to light than the IMR4198. I have had no ignition problems with IMR4198 at all.

Glad you like the rifle. I think you got a great deal. I hope to see the rifle one day.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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BlainSmipy
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: bonanza]
      #146985 - 01/12/09 01:00 AM

Quote:

I said hang-fire.



Same diff. You probably had the other round in and the powder pushed forward away from the primer from recoil.

Edited by BlainSmipy (01/12/09 01:02 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #146988 - 01/12/09 01:54 AM

Bonanza - most smokeless powders need to be very close to, or actually a lightly compressed load in large straight sided cases for good ignition. some allow leeway, of course.

Curl - have you tried or worked up any loads with AA5744? It is very much less critical for powder position & works well in reduced volume loads. It might be worth trying.

Lately, in the last several years anyway, I've switched from IMR4198 to H4198 in those rifles which use this powder. I don't know if that would make any difference in your gun, though as to ignition.

Hangfires are to be eliminated, of course. Very dangerous, as you know.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bonanza
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: CptCurl]
      #147028 - 02/12/09 01:44 AM

Curl,

I remember that your load was a few grains more than mine. 68gr works in mine, so no point in pushing a 123 year old gun. I shot a 50 lbs steel plate from 50 yards and was tossed like a rag doll.

I think BlainSmipy is onto something. I was the left bbl that hung fire twice. The recoil could be pulling the powder just off the primer.

Here is what I'll try.

1: use Fed 215 primers.
2: tap the case to settle the powder at the bottom.
3: compress the three wads.
4: seat the bullet a little deeper.

I tried the woodleigh 650gr BPE bullets - too heavy.

Hawk is sending me 14 560gr .035" bullets to try.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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DarylS
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: bonanza]
      #147034 - 02/12/09 03:36 AM

Deeper seating will in many guns, increase pressures, sometimes considerably if the original longer seating still cleared the rifling to start with. There are so many vaiables in handloading, one must work up his own loads.

Straight cases are the most difficult to work with, as they don't have a shoulder, which helps hold back the powder to get goo dignition started. At the bullet moves forward, just a small amount, the expansion ratio is hugely effected, dropping pressures and the 'flame'.

Thus, being able to use a compressed or at least a full case of easily ignited powder (or stronger primers) is the best scenario for straight cases. Years ago, John Buhmiller has such problems himself with straight cases and wrote about it. He resorted to testing with double primers - one in the pocket and another on top of the powder undeneath the bullet. I did similar testing in a strong bolt action rifle. I am not suggesting anyone try this, as I mention it only for others to gain an understanding that there is a real problem with ignition in straight cases and means must be found by each and every loader to circumvent the difficulties.

Again, I would not do this in a double of vintage and would not suggest anyone try it - period.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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horsedoc49
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Reged: 30/12/03
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Loc: Alaska
Re: .577 BPE [Re: DarylS]
      #147044 - 02/12/09 05:34 AM

I have only participated in the forum rarely, but the .577 has turned out to be my favorite rifle and I had a couple of comments and questions.
I have a Bland .577 hammer gun manufactured 1905 and the proofs are for a 650 grain bullet with 75 grains cordite. In the gun case was a note from the previous owner that stated the best load was 75 grains IMR 4198. I loaded working up to and beyond that level and the gun regulates quite well with 77 grains 4198. My velocities are around 1850 which seems to be ok as far as I can tell reading Graeme Wrights's book. I use 650 grain Woodleigh sp's (black powder), federal 215 or other magnum large rifle primers- I cannot discern much difference- and I use backer rod to fill the air space with just a touch of compression.
I have used dacron as well, but it takes so much that it looks like the cottonwood trees are shedding. I have never had a misfire or hangfire with this loading.
I recently purchased some Varget as Graeme's book suggests that you might get good velocity with lower pressures, but I haven't yet tried it. I also read somewhere that I could also use 4831, but I'm a little leary of that. Since 4198 performs well, perhaps I should stick with that.
My question is: am I pushing the loads too much? I don't want to damage the rifle and I note that others use lighter loads than I have been using. Even though the rifle says the load is cordite, I assume that it is designed only for nitro for black loadings.
Incidentally, the rifle weighs just over 12 pounds.
You've got to love that 577.
Ron

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tinker
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: horsedoc49]
      #147045 - 02/12/09 06:31 AM

Ron-



Get some photos of the proof marks here in this thread or start a new thread of conversation for your rifle - both the barrels and the action flats.

If it was built in 1905 and it shows a charge of cordite -- you may well have a nitro rifle.
Full nitro rifles can shoot to the sights with reduced charges and light bullets.
The proof marks will tell for sure.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Sarg
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: tinker]
      #147049 - 02/12/09 07:30 AM

I think we may have had a tread on this rifle "Question .577NE" if it is the same one Cabela's had a while back ?

I have been watching it since it was in the UK !

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horsedoc49
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Reged: 30/12/03
Posts: 10
Loc: Alaska
Re: .577 BPE [Re: Sarg]
      #147050 - 02/12/09 07:54 AM

It is in fact the rifle from Cabela's Reno. It seems to be a very nice rifle despite a couple of minor cosmetic flaws.
The pictures are still on the Cabelas's site. I have never posted photos and don't have any beyond the ones Cabela's had. I guess I should make an effort to learn how that is done- I know several people have posted instructions, but my eyes have blurred when reading so I went to something else more interesting to me.
I don't mean to hijack someone else's post so if you think I should start a new thread, just say the word.
Ron

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: tinker]
      #147051 - 02/12/09 07:55 AM

Blair,

It sounds like you are on the right track.

When I have used felt wads I have seated the bullet to lightly compress the wads. Just lightly.

If your bullet wasn't seated to slight compression, then that could account for a difference in your load.

I'm now using backer rod, very lightly compressed.

If my rifle had regulated at 68 grains that's what I would shoot, so I certainly agree with you there.

Have you checked the cartridge in the left barrel after firing the right barrel to note any movement of the bullet? If everything is backing out the overall length will increase.

Ron,

The resident expert on the .577/650/75 loading is Marrakai. You probably have seen his posts on the subject. I'm not familiar enough with the ballistics of that round to voice an opinion. I would want to consult Wright's book, which isn't at hand right now. You have already done that.

As to the use of Varget, I had a hang-fire in my .577 with Varget. Marrakai and I discussed this in another thread. He was surprised to hear my reported hang-fire. We seemed to agree that my difference is the use of paper patched bullets as opposed to his use of jacketed bullets. Anyway, I'm not using Varget in my .577.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Watson577
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Reged: 05/03/09
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: CptCurl]
      #147067 - 02/12/09 01:11 PM

Blair,

I am still working up loads for my 577-3" BPE but so far I have used Dacron, kapok, and foam backer rod for filler material all with Federal 215 primers and H4198 powder. I have never experienced ignition problems with these loads. My best load so far is a 605 grain 20:1 hollow based paper patched bullet with 73 grains of H4198, 1.6" of 5/8" foam backer rod material, and Federal 215 primers. When I have results that I'm happy with accuracy wise, I will post my findings. I have also tried Goex Express 1F, Swiss 1.5F, and Swiss 3F black powder loads but none of them were very accurate so I decided to work on the NFB load first and then tackle the black powder loads later.

Shoot straight,

Jim

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mauserand9mm
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: Watson577]
      #147072 - 02/12/09 02:24 PM

Not really giving you an answer but related to the topic.

I've tried cast lead projectiles in my 375H&H (rifle didn't shoot the ones I tried particularly well). When I first started using them I was using standard LR primers with about 30gn AR2205 and no filler - this resulted in hang-fires. I then tried using half a cotton 'ball' as a filler. This cured the hang-fire but every shot resulted in a cloud of cotton wafting around and sometimes back onto the bench onto other range users (who wondered what was going on the first time it happened to them - it's amazing the amount of fibrous material in half a cotton ball).

Ultimately I ended up using magnum primers and no filler.

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50Calshtr
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Reged: 01/11/05
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #147107 - 03/12/09 01:07 PM

Bonanza,
I'm using a 610gr cast bullet from a NEI mould in my 577 3" BPE with good results. My load is 69 gr of IMR 4198, 17 gr of dacron and a mag primer. This load gets me 1750+ fps and regulates well in my rifle. The only hang fires I've had were using large rifle primers, none with the mag primers. If you'd like to try some of these bullets let me know and I'll get some to you.
Best.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #147156 - 04/12/09 07:27 AM

Tight crimp and solid compression (not necessarily excessive) seem to be the answer with straight-wall cases.


I use dacron, it works beautifully, and I don't ever feel the need to apologize for the ejecta.



Horsedoc-
I just looked at the cabelas photos.
Your rifle is a 75gr Cordite/650gr bullet rifle (!!!).
Whoah nelly!
That's a barn-burner for sure.
Do you have a copy of Wright's book?




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: .577 BPE [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #147163 - 04/12/09 09:16 AM

50 cal shooter

Yes please.

Blair Simpkins
16530 Whispering Oaks Lane
Fort Mill, SC 29708

I got the Hawk 560 grain RN in today. I let you fellas know they shoot.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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50Calshtr
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: bonanza]
      #147170 - 04/12/09 01:25 PM

Bonanza,
I'll get you 20 in the mail Sat. Totally tied up tomorrow, but they shouldn't take long to get to you, I'm just down the road from you in Savannah.
Best.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #147358 - 07/12/09 04:27 AM

I'm at a loss as to the reason of using 4198 in a large case. I use 4350 and 4831 in my 577, lower pressure and better case density. I use one foam wad, and I've never had any hang fires.

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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bonanza
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Posts: 2335
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #147359 - 07/12/09 04:53 AM

Firstly, It has nothing to to with case size. When shooting a nitro for black load in an old rifle, one wants a fast easy to ignite powder that reaches max pressure in the thickest part of the barrel.

Secondly, 4350 and 4831 are slow and cary the pressure futher down the barrel.

Finally,Ross Seyfried recommends it.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: bonanza]
      #147361 - 07/12/09 05:48 AM

Quote:

Firstly, It has nothing to to with case size. When shooting a nitro for black load in an old rifle, one wants a fast easy to ignite powder that reaches max pressure in the thickest part of the barrel.

Secondly, 4350 and 4831 are slow and cary the pressure futher down the barrel.

Finally,Ross Seyfried recommends it.



I stand corrected then.

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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nopride2
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Reged: 03/01/04
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Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: .577 BPE [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #147363 - 07/12/09 07:01 AM

I was getting misfires in my 577 bpe. The primer drives the bullet,wads and powder about 6 inches into the barrel.
The load was 64 gr. of 4198, 215 primer and a 520 gr. paper patched bullet. I tried wads of dacron, foam, and felt to no avail. The only solution I have found is 2 gr. of unique under 62 gr. of 4198. I use foam wads because of their convenience. This load regulates in my rifle and was good enough to take a small white tail at 100 yards.

Dave

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50Calshtr
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Reged: 01/11/05
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Re: .577 BPE [Re: nopride2]
      #147444 - 08/12/09 01:54 PM

Dave,
A 520 gr bullet is pretty light for a 577, 560 is about the lightest I've heard of before. You may want to consider a heavier bullet with about five grains less powder to start and possibly a slight crimp on the load to get the powder burning before the bullet moves. I don't know what sort of foam you are using but I'd want to use a fairly stiff variety or as much dacron as you can get in the case compressed. I use 17 gr in my 3", a wad about the size of an orange. Above all I'd dump the Unique, duplex loads give me the willies.
Best

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50Calshtr
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Reged: 01/11/05
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Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: .577 BPE [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #147461 - 08/12/09 11:32 PM

Dave,
Let me add to the above. I got to my books last night and found a 520 gr load, however it was the light express load for an early 2 3/4" case. If your rifle is anything but one of the earliest I'd look for a heavier bullet and give that a go.
Best.

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