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J_in_the_UK
.224 member


Reged: 10/05/04
Posts: 3
What should I look for when choosing an old Double
      #14616 - 11/05/04 01:51 AM

Gentlemen,

Found your site yesterday when checking out info on Double rifles and have already spent far too much time reading the posts.

I love old English double rifles and I decided a while back that I was put on this planet to own one and that life wouldn't really be complete until I did.
I'm edging ever closer to realistically being able to afford one but I know very little about them, having done all my previous shooting with modern bolt guns, pistols, the odd muzzle loader and a bit of clay shooting with a 20 bore as a kid.

I've decided I want a proper side-lock ejector by a good English maker, in it's original case with all the toys. Calibre is not a big deal to me as I reload everythign I shoot anyway, but it needs to be something reasonably shootable without being too ridiculous. It will see a target range mostly, with maybe a very occasional trip stalking in Scotland. Reasonable wear through honest use is not a problem for me but I want to avoid anything that may have been abused or shot to bits. Spotting a burned out barrel or something that's obviously been abused isn't too difficult but other than that I'm a total novice in these things. Is there anything that should imediately turn me off a particular gun? What should I check for as regards the lockwork, mechanicals, etc? Investment is not foremost in my mind, I want a shooter, but I want to be able to avoid paying way over the odds for something.

Cheers,

J.


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Phil_in_the_UK
.275 member


Reged: 30/04/03
Posts: 60
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: J_in_the_UK]
      #14618 - 11/05/04 03:41 AM

Welcome J

The only advice I can give is tread very carefully, I have been looking seriously for 18 months and only just found something worth buying at the right price but not in the original calibre I was looking for. In that time I have seriously looked at 12 rifles, I bought the thirteenth, not superstitious. The number of available rifles here in the UK is not as great as in the US or Australia, you will have to look very hard. If you buy privately, don’t trust your own judgment, get a second opinion from someone who knows what they are looking at and don’t buy unless you can have the opportunity of more than a few shots, preferably with commercially available ammunition. If you’re buying from a reputable dealer they won’t mind and also won’t mind you bringing someone along for the second opinion. If they hesitate, walk away it’s not worth wasting thousands on a wall hanger. Remember, I looked at 12 “poor” rifles that on the face of it actually looked OK and some of them very pretty, some were from dealers some private. If you are going to stalk deer you will have to go for a calibre of .375 or smaller.

Good luck, it will be worth it and if you’re interested, I have a few reliable contacts that may be able to help you out.

Regards

Phil

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: J_in_the_UK]
      #14620 - 11/05/04 03:54 AM

J.
I'll jump in here, just because I like to help other people spend their money!

I own and I am very partial to 450/400 3 inch. A great all around chambering if there is one. 400 grains at 1950 FPS in tropical 55 Cord regulation. It's great fun! Bullets are plentiful and cases are available from Mast Technology who makes B. E. L. L. brass. You can shoot a heck of a lot more than a larger Nitro Express caliber. I like the 3 inch over the 3 1/4 because it was always a Nitro round and accomplishes the same thing with a bit less pressure!

My next suggestion is a double in 9.3X74R. You still get the tapered flanged cartridge I feel is necessary for a double rifle and once again ammo and the fix'ns are readily available! It is very close to the 400/360 NE. It is a great stag/plains game round and legal for dangerous game in most countries.

Now most folks cringe at the thought of a scope on a double rifle, however with a scope the 9.3X74R can reach out accurately past what we consider the usual double rifle iron sight range.

Passing along my usual words of warning to those looking for a used double rifle, Buyer Beware! The road to double rifle heaven is a heavily mined dragon's tooth tank trap. There is no shame in not knowing what to look for. There is no reason not to get the rifle checked out! As someone else on this forum most eloquently stated, "check the bores, all else is fixable!" I'd like to see on the face as well! A quick test for that is to remove the forearm and while holding the rifle by the action in one hand and the barrels in the other, try to twist the barrels back and forth. There should be no movement!

Oh well, I've rambled again! Sorry! Good hunting for your double rifle! When it come right down to it, the rifle you like and can afford and shoot accurately, is the best double rifle of all!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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Phil_in_the_UK
.275 member


Reged: 30/04/03
Posts: 60
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: Rusty]
      #14622 - 11/05/04 04:12 AM

"The road to double rifle heaven is a heavily mined dragon's tooth tank trap".

Rusty, you’re a poet, how damn close to the truth is that?

You carry on rambling, its all sound advice.

J, I forgot to mention, I know of a .270, .275, and .280 Ross, all doubles and all very nice “good name” rifles, but maybe a little on the small side.

Regards

Phil

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J_in_the_UK
.224 member


Reged: 10/05/04
Posts: 3
Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #14623 - 11/05/04 06:15 AM

Gents,

Thanks for the replys. I have seen several doubles for sale on the web, several from retailers who seem quite respectable. I don't know if discussing retailers is allowed on here (appologies if it isn't) but www.drake.net have some wonderful looking doubles (my desktop picture is a stunning .577 NE they currently have...Mmmmmm), as do Westley Richards. Westleys have a rather nice looking box-lock in .300 Sherwood at what appears to be a very nice price. That is a very tempting rifle given that it can be possessed without any certificate formalities here due to the chambering and age. Any recomendations on reliable dealers would be appreciated.

I would certainly prefer something in one of the British rounds and I'm not bothered at all by obscurity or rarity, as long as brass can be got from somewhere or made from something else. Jacketed bullets, if the worst comes to the worst, can be swaged. I've always quite liked the .400/350 Rigby round as it is powerful without being stupid and uses .358 bullets. As long as the rifle is sound though any chambering will do.

With reference to the things mentioned, such as loose lockup. I don't mind having to get work done as long as I can negotiate a price that reflects condition. Would a problem like that generally indicate that one's bank balance is about to take a serious hit? I have also been told of occasional problems with actions being fiddled with causing firing pins to fall forward and jam the action closed on fired cases - is this a common problem to be on the lookout for?

Phil- I would appreciate details of those rifles you mentioned if you wouldn't mind.

Cheers,

J.

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #14630 - 11/05/04 10:36 AM

Phil

In reply to:

The number of available rifles here in the UK is not as great as in the US or Australia



Once this might have been true, but sadly there was an exodus of double rifles out of Australia in in the mid-late nineties.

Australia really had no historical involvement with doubles, except for the odd rifle in what we call a "Kangaroo" chambering: mostly thing's like .442 Carbine.

In the late 70's a small group of entepeneurs started bringing doubles in from India, but that supply dried up in the mid-nineties, about the same time they started to be re-exported because of the onerous gun laws that came into force after the Port Arthur massacre, particularly when the Australian dollar was at it's lowest ebb 3-4 years ago. Those that sold them had only transient interest in them.

Some here have regarded this as tantamount to selling off our heritage, but if it was, it was a very short lived heritage!

Most of these rifles went to the US, particularly the boxlocks, with (curiously) many of the sidelocks going to Germany.

There is still the odd "sleeper" around, and most of the "known" doubles are now firmly in collections and do not come onto the market all that often. Paradoxically, Australia is probably now a net importer of doubles!

In spite of the disadvantageous currency exchange rate, many of these recent imports have come from the UK.

To sum up, the well here has well and truly run dry!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39259
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Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: J_in_the_UK]
      #14643 - 11/05/04 02:58 PM


In reply to:

I decided a while back that I was put on this planet to own one and that life wouldn't really be complete until I did.






That is a quote worth keeping.

***

J

Firstly welcome to NitroExpress.com. I hope your scratch your itch and also have fun here.

The first thing I would do is find the name of a good gunsmith (or two) in the UK who is very experienced with repairing or building double rifles and will do a thorough check over of any you seriously intend to buy. After doing an elementary check over yourself it is very much a good idea to have a professional do it as well with a written report.

".300 Sherwood"

This would be quite a marginal round, wouldn't it.

"Sidelocks"

Obviously this will add to the eventual price.

".400/.350"

I think "4seventy" on these forums has one of these (?) but his I think is a modern creation on a shotgun action (?) . He is a hunting guide and has been absent for a while, as he is probably in the bush. He uses it for wild pigs and also as a backup on scrub bulls in Far North Queensland.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: NitroX]
      #14647 - 11/05/04 04:08 PM

J

Welcome to Nitroexpress. Contact John Wilkes in London, off of Carnaby street. They always have a few rifles around for sale and are very strait forward about their faults. A sidelock will be at least double the price of a boxlock but if that is what you want then point for that. You never know what will fall into your hands if you are looking and asking.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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J_in_the_UK
.224 member


Reged: 10/05/04
Posts: 3
Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: NitroX]
      #14649 - 11/05/04 07:18 PM

>>The first thing I would do is find the name of a good gunsmith (or two) in the UK who is very experienced with repairing or building double rifles and will do a thorough check over of any you seriously intend to buy. After doing an elementary check over yourself it is very much a good idea to have a professional do it as well with a written report.

What about if I'm buying from a "quality" firm, such as Hollands or Westleys? Is it still advisable to get it independently checked or should their word be good enough that it's a good gun? Will they stand behind their sale and rectify any problems?

>>".300 Sherwood"

>>This would be quite a marginal round, wouldn't it.

Depends what you want to use it for, I supose. It's similar to .30 Carbine but was loaded with bullets slightly heavier - 140grns (and smaller .300). From my point of view it's quite a sensible round for a first double as it can be shot on all the indoor pistol ranges I use and would be handy for bunny busting or foxing at moderate ranges. Also, it can be sold on as a wall hanger over here due to it's age and chambering so has a larger market if I ever decide to get rid. It's got lots of nice features, auto-safe, lots of flip up sights, even scope bases. Also, I don't think I'm ever likely to get into the English double rifle scene at a price lower than they are asking. Here's the link to it, any thoughts would be appreciated.

http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/used_guns_2_product.php?id=24360

J.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39259
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Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: J_in_the_UK]
      #14652 - 11/05/04 11:00 PM

J

I can't answer you on buying a rifle from WR or H&H. My guess would be the rifle would have been checked over but its only a guess. It will be reflected in their prices most likely.

300 Sherwood for $5000. Just my personal opinion but I wouldn't buy a Sherwood for that, or really at all for that cartridge. But maybe you like it and it fits what you want then its your choice.

For $5000 I would look for a .450 Black Powder Express (or similar) where nitro for black loads could be used or even a .450/.400 NE may be possible. I'm sure you could find a medium calibre double in that price range too such as a 7mm or 8mm. Probably not a sidelock. UK prices may be a lot different too.

Good luck. I think if you look hard and wait for the right double you will find something that is right for you.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: J_in_the_UK]
      #14675 - 12/05/04 09:16 AM

J in UK, I think that is the USA store where that website is from. If so that would add to the already high price for this particular Boxlock WR double, to get it home to you! The rifle seems to be in very good shape if the pictures are any indication. That is the rub, pictures often lie! Additionally, thewre was some recent scandal involving that store, though I don't know the details. $5200 US for that rifle would be a great price if it weren't for the chambering. That rifle has been on their hands for sometime, as nobody here wants a chambering like the 400 Sherwood. I collect Westley Richards doubles, both rifles, and shotguns, and if this rifle were a 400/360 it would already be in my collection.

www.champlinarms.com in Enid, Oklahoma has a lot of double rifls in stock at all times, and you can take their word for the condition of anything they sell. If you don't mind buying from a USA dealer, this is one of the best there is, and he probably has more double rifles at any given time, that anyone in the world! Check them out! click on the gun vault, and do a double rifle search. They also list any service on double rifles, done by JJ Perodeau, a master on double rifles! Send them an E-mail, and tell them what you are looking for, as the website never has all their doubles listed.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39259
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #14678 - 12/05/04 01:27 PM

Mac

The Westley Richards we site also covers the UK business. The ownership/copyright is Westley Richards .. Ltd and also list on the contact page BOTH UK and the USA shop.

I guess a firearm could be sitting at either location. Prices are in US$ because that is where the sales are.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NE450No2
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Re: What should I look for when choosing an old Double [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #14696 - 13/05/04 04:28 AM

J in the UK
I second Dugaboy's opinion of Champlin Arms, fine people to do business with.
For what you have stated any double in calibres from 280 to the 450/400 would do a good job for you. Especially the 400/360, 400/350, 360 No2, 333Jeffery Flanged, 375 Flanged, or a 400/360 that has been [properly] rechambered to 9,3x74R. Even a 375 Flanged Magnum could be loaded with 235 gr. bullets for the smaller deer.
I was unable to fine a good medium bore British Double rifle so I bought a Chapuis in 9,3x74R. It has become my most favorite rifle under 40 calibre. It ain't British.... but it is a very fine hunting rifle.
Keep up the Quest.... And let us know what you eventually get.

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