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Marrakai
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Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14786 - 14/05/04 09:33 PM

In the Northern Territory at least, and I thought the whole of Australia, black powder firearms escaped the "nothing over .38" restriction. I don't shoot with the Black Powder club, but would be interested to know if BP cartridge guns over .38 (or over .45 for that matter) can still be used during an official event. If so, that would provide a legitimate reason for pretty-well anyone with an H-class licence in Australia, with the ability to meet BP club-attendance minimums.

In the NT, firearms manufactured before 1900 can be held fairly freely on a special 'Antique Licence', and discharged under certain circumstances, such as at Collectors' Shoots. Generally a re-barrel would not be regarded as changing the date of manufacture of the firearm, especially if it was rebarrelled to an obsolete 'period' cartridge like the Snider.

I should add that the Antique Licence covering H-class might be difficult to get unless a normal H-class Collectors Licence was already held. The NT Coppers tend to have a "no dickheads" policy when it comes to this sort of thing. Matter of fact, so do the rest of us shooters!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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RLI
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Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Marrakai]
      #14804 - 15/05/04 09:40 AM

With the nothing over .38 rule it mainly appies to Pistol Clubs the exceptions are
Black Powder
Metalic Silouhete (forgive the spelling)
SASS
Collectors (class 2)
Security Guards (I do not think a Howdah in .577 Snider would be main issue of a security company somehow!)
Gundealers

and any special reasons like film armourers, Defence contractors, etc. All above on approved ranges but you can apply to the police for a exemption for use else where but seldom given. All above is for Victoria other states would be very similar.
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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RLI
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Posts: 534
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Marrakai]
      #14825 - 15/05/04 06:01 PM

I have just got some advice from my Gunsmith and he says the Pedersoli or Merkel conversion can be done but with recoil of .45/70 the web of my hand may get cut by top opening lever this may or may not be a problem . I would go for a under lever opening lever but I know of no modern firearms made like this . I am looking at the moment to the following

Pedersoli/ .577 Snider
Merkel/ .500S&W or .577 Snider

I have a Smith & Wesson .500S&W Magnum revolver on order and when I get it I will see how this round is in the recoil department (I think it should crumple a tiger trying to get in a Howdah). I will most likely go with the Merkel /.500S&W combination (it is not British but it is available) as I see this as a modern version of the Howdah. I am not sure of Barrel length 10" or 12" maybe, sights would be express style , any one who has any ideas on barrel length,sights,stock,calibre choice please forward your suggestions. Thanks
RLI



--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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RLI
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Posts: 534
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Marrakai]
      #14879 - 17/05/04 05:13 PM

I just found this on AR http://members.fortunecity.com/howda it shows a sauer shotgun converted to a Howdah in .45/70. This is similar to what I inted to do but with a Merkel shotgun in .500S&W (435g at 1700fps for above 2700me) I would go for the classic look not the fiberglass as shown . Check out the lump on this blokes forehead he got when both barrels went off together during R&D testing!
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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Marrakai
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Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #14885 - 17/05/04 10:54 PM

Not meaning to be critical, but sleeving INSIDE existing 12-bore barrels like that is a really UGLY way to build a Howdah Pistol or a .470 Double Rifle.

...and not a peep about REGULATION!!!!!

Still, he's obviously having more fun than I am bashing away at this keyboard....!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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lar45
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Reged: 19/05/04
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Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Marrakai]
      #14978 - 19/05/04 01:35 PM

Hi all, Calibros did not try to regulate the barrels on his 45-70. He did try to adjust his loads to get them to regulate, but didn't have much sucess with it. He has the sights set for the right barrel and gives a little windage for the left one. He says after recutting the sear engagement that he hasn't had any more doubleing mishaps. I don't have a current picture of his " Pondoro", but he says that he has finished the ends of the barrels.

On my site I have pics of my 70cal pinfire Howdah. The recoil is not that bad.

The 470NE being built on the Belgian Antique 12ga may not look pretty, but it does shoot and has not come off face yet. It did pass with 2 heavy proof loads and several box's full power loads since then. I have been slow on finishing it. I have one barrel soldered in place and just need to get back to the range to finish adjusting the left one. With the barrel sleeves turned to the shotgun dimensions then the barrels didn't even come close to regulateing. The right would shoot left and the left would shoot right about 18" at 25yds. I then turned down the barrels tapering them back but leaving a full diameter for abit at the muzzle end, then I went to the range, filed down one side of the barrel, shimmed it over and shot. Repeat. I got it shooting fairly good at 50yds, but ran out of ammo. My next trip to the range should be able to get the left barrel adjusted and soldered in place.

I informed Calibros of my regulating idea. I don't know if he will try it on his 45-70 or not.

Reading the ATF code, it seems that it should be legal to build a Howdah from an anitque double shotgun. I wrote a couple of letters and several email to the ATF. They responded saying that a cut down shotgun would be a sawed off shotgun and would need to be liscenced. They did not address the issue of starting with an antique as the CGA and NFA do not apply to anitques.
If you have different rules in Australia then I wouldn't see any reason that you couldn't do it. I would start with a shotgun that has the 3rd fastener on it. A dolls head or the greener cross bolt. I would think that a 50-70 would make a very nice Howdah caliber. A quick run through Quickload shows that a 10" 50-70 with 500gn cast should be able to do 1200fps+ and stay under 27ksi with 26gns of 2400. That should be pleanty of performance out of any pistol.

If you don't like the looks of a sleeved 12ga, then you could always cut the barrels off around 3" and make a monoblock out of it. Thread the monoblock, then screw your barrels into it, solder in place then finish and regulate like a normal double. I may try that on my next one after I get this one done.

--------------------
More Powder, Bigger Bullets.
http://members.fortunecity.com/howda


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mickey
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Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: lar45]
      #14979 - 19/05/04 01:50 PM

Those would be pretty neat self defense guns for Bears.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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RLI
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: lar45]
      #14984 - 19/05/04 02:40 PM

Lar45,
What do you think of the Merkel/.500S&W idea? I was thinking that to big would be uncontrollable and I want a degree of accuracy then again it is a last defence against a tiger at most a few yards . I would prefer a calibre .50 or over a .500S&W, 50/70 or original .577 Snider any calibres you can suggest? Thanks
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: lar45]
      #14994 - 19/05/04 10:49 PM

Lars

Try as I might I can't get all the photos on your site to load up. The .470 page, plus building the howdah page.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lar45
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Reged: 19/05/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #15013 - 20/05/04 04:12 AM

RLI, I am by no means an expert here. I did buy the book about building double rifles on shotgun actions and have read it many times. In the book he suggests uesing actions that have been proof tested so that you can see what the allowable bolt thrust would be. He also goes into not useing any high pressure cartriges. The 500S&W would be a high pressure cartrige and would probably be a bad idea to do. I think that the 50-70 or 577 Snider would be great as they offer a big bore and low pressure.
Ross Seyfried did an article about his 577 Tranter revolver and was talking about a 450gn slug at 750fps. Not to get into the 45-70 DGR debate, but in a pistol a large slug in that weight/velocity range would be controllable and should be effective on thin skinned beasts. I haven't clocked the velocity on my 70cal pinfire loads as the filler messes with the chrono readings, but the 850gn slug would sure pack a huge wallop and isn't really that bad to shoot. I have a LEE 12ga 1oz slug mold that I've modified, but haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. I'll look up the ISBN on the book and post it here if anyone wants to look for a copy.
I was thinking of 50-70 as the US has a 50cal limit unless you get a special sporting cartrige exemption and that is only for rifles.

I've been busy with school and finals, but I'll check my site and see if all the pics are still there.

http://members.fortunecity.com/howda

A local gun shop got in some new Turkish double shotguns that look real interesting. They have the Greener cross bolt and are in the $800 US range. The actions are made of 1040 which isn't really confidence inspireing, but if you worked withing the limits of the steel then it might be interesting to see what could/might be made from them.

--------------------
More Powder, Bigger Bullets.
http://members.fortunecity.com/howda


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lar45
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Reged: 19/05/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #15014 - 20/05/04 04:36 AM

NitroX, I was going to do a building a Howdah page, but thought that I deleted it. Where did you see a link to it? I picked up the Antique Belgian 12ga with the thought of doing a Howdah on it, but while waiting for a reply from the ATF, I happened across the 70cal pinfire, so I decided not to convert it. I used the 12ga for the 470NE project. I still have the 10ga and I'm thinking about doing something large with it, just haven't decided yet. Maybe a 577 or 600?

I got all the pics on the 470 page to load. Maybe I have too many on one page, I'll see about splitting it up into a couple of pages.

--------------------
More Powder, Bigger Bullets.
http://members.fortunecity.com/howda


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lar45
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Reged: 19/05/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: lar45]
      #15057 - 22/05/04 01:07 AM

This is the book I bought.
Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions by W. Ellis Brown
ISBN 0-9714802-0-6
published by
Bunduki Publishing
39384 W.C.R. 19
Ft. Collins, CO 80524 USA

if anyone is interested.

It pretty much has a step by step approach to building the gun with pics and illustrations.

--------------------
More Powder, Bigger Bullets.
http://members.fortunecity.com/howda


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RLI
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Posts: 534
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: lar45]
      #15068 - 22/05/04 07:53 AM

This is a book I must have, is there a website ? Thanks
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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lar45
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Reged: 19/05/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #15069 - 22/05/04 08:56 AM

I didn't find a website for them, but Brownells has it. $49.95

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=20231&title=BUILDING+DOUBLE+RIFLES+ON+SHOTGUN+ACTIONS


--------------------
More Powder, Bigger Bullets.
http://members.fortunecity.com/howda


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RLI
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: lar45]
      #15070 - 22/05/04 09:07 AM

Thanks

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #15131 - 24/05/04 08:50 AM

Dugaboy 1,

I am currently in the US but I remember having an old issue of (I'm not sure whether it was Guns and Ammo or Gun Digest) with pictures of a modern take on the Howdah pistol by US gunmaker Lee Jurras on the Thomson Center Contender frame. Not quite the 577s of the British era, but interesting single barreled big bore handguns, I think.

I wonder if anyone has any access to the old issues - maybe Nickudu at AR? I'll try and scan and mail them to someone who may be able to post the pictures when I go to India in a couple of months.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Gibbs505
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #15785 - 13/06/04 03:04 PM

Here is a site about a guy who built his own howdah pistol in 45-70!

http://members.fortunecity.com/howda/calibros.html

--------------------
So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it


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Hobie
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #15805 - 14/06/04 06:21 AM

You can get in touch with Mr. Jurras on the Leverguns.com forums. Just ask for grandcurmudgeon.

Those cartridges pre-dated JDJ's creations if I remember correctly and some were made up for race car drivers and other such "notables" of the time. I remember the article and I also remember that I passed it on to a friend about 8 years ago. He's a packrat (worse than me) so I'll ask if he's still got it. However, it might take MONTHS for him to find it.

--------------------
Sincerely,

Hobie
"Duty is the rent we pay for life." The Queen Mother
116th Infantry Regiment "The Stonewall Brigade"


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Gibbs505]
      #15896 - 17/06/04 12:21 PM

Gibbs 505,

Thanks for the link.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Hobie]
      #15897 - 17/06/04 12:28 PM

Hobie,

Thanks for the contact deails for Mr Jurras and I'll try and contact him on the Leverguns.com forums but I wonder if someone here who knows him better could get the pictures/details faster than I would?

In any case they would be of fantastic historical/archival value.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Gibbs505
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #15932 - 18/06/04 10:14 AM

No problem, enjoy!!

--------------------
So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it


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docEE
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Loc: Minnesota, USA
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Gibbs505]
      #16011 - 20/06/04 11:42 AM

Interesting thread! I just read an article in the past several days from one of our gun magazines (I'll have to dig for it) about a guy sawing down a 12 gauge to make a pistol. It was legal here in US because he spent the 3 months and $200 to get a permit to do so. He started with one of the Bakhail side-by-side shotguns and since he is an orthopedic surgeon who appreciates the risks to joints and such ONLY shoots the 1-1/2" slugs offered by Aguilla(??). I'll see if the article describes the slug weight and velocity. I was less than enthusiastic to see that this weapon is basically considered to be a class III weapon, which puts it in the same camp with fully-automatic weapons. That means I wouldn't consider bothering with it... putting my fingerprints on file and such. Foolish to restrict them, considering they would be far too unweildy for a criminal to use in virtually any situation and likely to cause injury to a user unless he was quite adept.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: docEE]
      #16028 - 20/06/04 11:15 PM

Just found another variation on the Howdah Pistol, this one a single-shot on a Khyber Pass Martini of all things! 100 years old (?), owned by a Canadian.
...presumably a .577-.450! Ouch!!

For all you "do-it-yourself" Howdah Pistol fans.....





--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Hobie]
      #16046 - 21/06/04 02:38 PM

Thanks to Hobie for referring me to Mr Jurras!

I registered on the Leverguns Forums on Hobie's advice and Mr Jurras will be sending me pictures and details of the Howda guns that he designed and made in the 1970s I think. I shall try and scan and mail them to NitroX and we shall be able to see them here in a few days' time.

Thank you, Hobie and good hunting, gentlemen!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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lar45
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Reged: 19/05/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Pocatello, Idaho
Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Marrakai]
      #16047 - 21/06/04 02:42 PM

Now that is a very cool looking Martini. I need one of those.

--------------------
More Powder, Bigger Bullets.
http://members.fortunecity.com/howda


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