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RLI
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Howdah Pistol in modern calibres?
      #14596 - 10/05/04 08:55 AM

I thought I would post here as a Howdah is more related to a Double than a Handgun. I am curious to know if anyone has heard of a Howdah in modern calibres? My brother has read a article of a Howdah double in .405Win (he is mailing the article to me) and if wanting to make one today what actions and calibres are available? I know Double rifles in .45/70 can be made on Ruger O/U shotgun but as a Howdah may be to heavy? any suggestions?
RLI

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"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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Gibbs505
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #14601 - 10/05/04 10:25 AM

I would like to get a Howdah pistol in origional calibre!!
But I proberly could not afford one!!

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #14609 - 10/05/04 10:25 PM

Isn't it possible just to saw off the barrels off a Pedersoli and then fit new sights?



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470Rigby
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #14613 - 10/05/04 11:40 PM

I saw a short barrelled nitro double rifle once; 16" barrels as I recall. It was described at a "Howdah Rifle", and close inspection did not reveal whether they had been lopped.

Does anybody have a view on whether this description could have been historically correct?


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RLI
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #14629 - 11/05/04 10:35 AM

Yes, I considered the Pedersoli but thinking of one with no hammers maybe built on a Webley & Scott, Greener or maybe Merkel action. The cost would be more than the Pedersoli I would think.
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #14631 - 11/05/04 10:53 AM


I was reminded that the ATF has no authority in Australia, so this post is to anyone inside the USA who is thinking of doing this! (read my follow up post) My advice to US citizens is, tread lightly here!


I think you are looking for a visit from the ATF, if you go about lopping off barrels of a double rifle shorter than 16", or building a pistol on a shotgun action, or building a pistol on any rifle or shotgun action. These are considered sawed offs by ATF, and will net you some time in the federal lock-up! Even if you make a double rifle on a shotgun action it can have barrels no shorther than 18", and must have an over all length of 26"! One that started out as a double rifle from the factory, cannot have barrels less than 16"!

Dangerous area, fellows, to even talk about, in public, and a definent problem to actually do!

Find yourself a good clean 577 Howah pistol, pay the price! It will be cheaper in the long run, I assure you!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (12/05/04 02:58 AM)


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RLI
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #14632 - 11/05/04 11:20 AM

I would love a original Howdah but the price! and the Howdah if made out of a Shotgun action would have to be registered as a pistol/handgun which can be done in Australia by notifying the police of the alteration but you have to be a Gundealer to do this. I would presume if you want to make a shotgun into a handgun in the USA you would have to get ATF permission first in writing.
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #14638 - 11/05/04 02:21 PM

Don't think the ATF has a whiff of a chance doing anything that concerns me in the least.

Of course a person would seek legal permission to alter a firearm, caibre, barrels etc before doing so, but I don't give a damn what the ATF think if they read it here as they are a complete irrelevancy to me.

I do wonder though with BS Aussie banning of large calibre pistols whether a .45 Pedersoli cut-back could be legally done or not? Also the legal justification? As it would be a hunting pistol and hunting with a pistol is not permitted maybe NE.com would need to form a Howdah Target shooting discipline. Maybe a cross between IPSC and game target shooting. Picture this - you are sitting in a mock howdah which wobbles quite a bit, wearing your pith helmet, carrying your favourite double rifle. Your howdah pistol is in a holster. A tiger target is charging you from close range. Your double having been expended, jammed, whatever (being a "junk" vintage Jeffrey, A&N, WR or H&H ), you need to draw the howdah pistol and shoot the tiger in a leathal area.

Sounds like fun. Pity one can not do the real thing, what.

--------------------
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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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RLI
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #14644 - 11/05/04 03:08 PM

I think I will look around for suitable actions and calibres and get prices but if I can not get a Howdah pistol I can get a original Howdah ! One is advertised on the Westley Richards site (does not include elephant !)for $9000 from memory........I will dream on.
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #14645 - 11/05/04 03:17 PM

A very cheap possibility which would be easy to do. I WON'T comment on the legalities, anyone trying it would need to work it out for themself.

Take an older double shotgun. Shorten the barrels and the stock. Use two of these .45/70 (or other calibre) insert tubes. These would need to be docked as well and fitted.

Voile!

Would this work? I don't know, but the barrel length, bullet weight and velocity would be important to get the bullets to stabilize.

Now does such a setup sound accurate? Probably not, but I don't think Howdahs were very accurate in the first place, so nothing new. My reading was their main purpose was a defensive weapon when the tiger one is hunting is hanging onto the head of one's elephant and one's rifle barrels were too long for one .


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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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RLI
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #14646 - 11/05/04 03:33 PM

I have a Merkel sxs 12g "Made in GDR" shotgun I suppose I could convert that. I was thinking of .405Win calibre I know this is not a British calibre but a few British doubles were made in this calibre. What British calibres would be suitable for a Howdah? Most are to big and powerfull to be used in a Howdah pistol or they are to small . any suggestions?
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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mickey
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #14648 - 11/05/04 04:19 PM

In reply to:

Picture this - you are sitting in a mock howdah which wobbles quite a bit, wearing your pith helmet, carrying your favourite double rifle. Your howdah pistol is in a holster. A tiger target is charging you from close range. Your double having been expended, jammed, whatever (being a "junk" vintage Jeffrey, A&N, WR or H&H ), you need to draw the howdah pistol and shoot the tiger in a leathal area.




I love it. How about a 5 gallon bucket full of water on a big pendulum. While standing in your rickity stand 10 feet above the ground. Your friends are shaking the legs and this bucket is in full charge at your body. Two quick shots with your Double and then, if it is still coming you grab your Howdah and give it two more. Of course if you miss the bucket it knocks you ass over tea kettle off the platform and you consider yourself eaten.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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RLI
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: mickey]
      #14650 - 11/05/04 09:52 PM

It would be a cross between Single Action Shooting and IPSC ! but much better!
RLI

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"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #14653 - 11/05/04 11:03 PM

In reply to:

it knocks you ass over tea kettle off the platform




I thought this is what your .577 Howdah does anyway.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Marrakai
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #14655 - 11/05/04 11:26 PM

Anyone here got Chris Austyn's "Modern Sporting Guns"?
Go take a peek at Plate 22, opposite page 97.

Both the sublime and the rediculous, on the one page!



BTW, the A&N chambered for the .577 Short Snider really flicks my switch!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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congomike
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #14662 - 12/05/04 01:39 AM

Actually a simple solution, maybe, would be to find a double barrel action THAT HAD NEVER BEEN BARRELLED. According to ATF as long as it never had been barrelled, you can make a pistol out of it. Many of the early silohuette (sp?) shooters in my area tried taking MK X mauser actions and making handguns out of them. Some were successful, some were not. Anyway, how about a 10" barrelled .600 Nitro double pistol....you first....

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #14666 - 12/05/04 02:54 AM

I just noticed RLI was in Aussie land,and I will edit my post to the attention of US citizens, only! My post does not apply to him, or anyone outside the USA! However, for those who are in the USA, do not think because this can be done legally in Australia, it will not be frowned on here! The mere suggesting doing it here may get you a visit! The Patriot act leaves some real holes in your rights today! My advice to the US citizens is, tread lightly! The key words like Patriot act,ATF, Sawed off, short barrel, in this, and my other post may throw up a flag on big brother's computer chatter watchers, looking for terrorest action.

In OZ, if it is legal, the Pedersoli would work fine, by simply lopping off the barrels just in front of the fore end, and re-doing the tangs to a better pistol grip angle! The 45-70 would be a perfect round for this, if the barrels are left at around 12" to 14", and a fast powder like IMR3031, or one of the Aussie powders with the same generel burning rate, is used . The cartridges used in howdah pistols were large diameter, and had very short cases. The cartridge mentioned by Marrakai is perfect, the 577 Snider carbine,(SHORT), or the 58 Berdan Carbine, were both chambered in original H Ps. Both are British, in that they were designed by Americans, but were not accepted for military rounds in the USA, but both picked up by the Britts. The standard NE rounds for Double rifles are much too long to do well in a pistol. The barrels are not long enough to burn the amount of powder used in those long cases.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Marrakai
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #14686 - 12/05/04 11:17 PM

For those without Austyn's book, this is what the .577 Howdah Pistol looks like. I WANT ONE!



Many large-bore Brit pistols were chambered for the .577 Revolver cartridge, which is a really short dumpy cartridge not much longer than a .22 rimfire. Unfortunately I don't have one in my collection, an omission I will have to rectify. Such pistols are very rare today. Its possible that a Howdah pistol in this configuration could be chambered for the more powerful short Snider cartridge, on the left in the photo below. The others are the standard-length Snider, the .577 Express, and the .577 Nitro Express.



I just love this calibre!

Regarding sleeving a small-bore shotgun action for a 'modern' Howdah pistol, I believe the .577 short Snider is still a realistic option. A single rifled .577 tube from any of the BP rifleworks like Dixie or Green River would provide the barrel sleeves, and the cases are available from Bertram. Lead projectiles from any .577 Minie mold would probably produce adequate short-range accuracy. Tons of fun, no doubt!


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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RLI
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: Marrakai]
      #14698 - 13/05/04 08:41 AM

Great pics! I just read a old Guns & Ammo article about a Howdah in .577 short snider made by Rodda and this pistol comes cased. Very similar to the one you have pictured. I have to have one! . I will be looking at a Pedersoli next week and I will see if I can convert to .577 short snider.Thanks for the lead on components . I better contact the Jacks(police) to get there royal seal of approval.
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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470Rigby
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #14702 - 13/05/04 10:33 AM

RLI

I think you should take yourself off for a reality check!

Being a fellow Victorian, I can tell you you would have a "snow balls" chance of owning one of these legitimately here - so why continue with this nonsense?

Instant Shooters Licence suspension, and forfeiture of ALL of your guns would be the result of being cought with it "off-ticket", are you prepared to risk THAT for this?

Remember, a sawn-off Pedersoli is STILL a Pedersoli!


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RLI
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14704 - 13/05/04 11:14 AM

470Rigby,
Why get so upset? If you had read everything I have written it is all with Victoria Police permission and I hold all licences which let me do this and if you think I need a "reality check" why don't you check the Firearms act and it states that firearms can be modified by a Gundealer with Police permission . The Howdah once complete would be registered as a Handgun and even with the over .38 calibre rule in Victoria/Australia it can still be used by some licence holders including myself! I think you should read everything I and other members have written and if you do not understand anything just ask and I/we will endeavour to answer your questions but going off half cocked over a subject you know very little about only makes you look rude and ignorant.
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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470Rigby
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #14705 - 13/05/04 02:33 PM

RLI

Well, I did discuss this with a few people "in the know", and the consensus was that the probability of obtaining sanction to do this in Victoria was in the "snow ball" survival region.

If you have some special situation that allows you to do it, good for you! I daresay, 99.99 percent of the population couldn't, and it's them that I worry about. Just go and do it without any fanfare.

Am I upset? Yes. Just think a public forum such as this is not the place to ventilate these sorts of concepts. We don't really kow WHO is out there anonomously taking all this down, do we?

MODERATORS?

Obviously, you can't be up with the gun laws in every jurisdiction around the world, but is there a policy on this forum relating to potentially illegal acts being "aired"?

There ARE consequences.

In this instance, how long after the first illegally s*wn-off Pedersoli is used in a Bank hold-up would it be before ownership of double rifles is put under the spotlight? The same applies to shotguns I hear you say! But there IS a difference. Heavy calibre double rifle owners are a minority within a minority, and would have no electoral clout. Who can justify ownership of a heavy calibre double in a country where a 30-06 will handle any common game species.

The reason these issues were not canvassed in my original post IS precisely because we don't know who is watching.

I just think RLI and all of the other posters that went along with this "nonsense" should go and take a cold shower. DUGABOY offered the same advice and you all blithely ignored him. Maybe he was too polite.

Edited by 470Rigby (14/05/04 11:01 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14714 - 13/05/04 11:02 PM

470Rigby

If you have any concerns please PM me.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: RLI]
      #14715 - 13/05/04 11:04 PM

THIS POST IS GENERAL AND NOT REPLYING TO ANYONE IN PARTICULAR.

No one has suggested doing anything illegal here. It has always been stated that legal issues be ascertained BEFORE actually doing anything. This is only a discussion and is NOT illegal to discuss, thank God .

"Saw-offs" are not automatically criminals weapons. A gunsmith might alter the length of a barrel legally or after the owner has obtained the legal right to do so for all sorts of legal reasons.

I can't imagine a criminal going out and legally purchasing a Pedersoli .45/70 for $5000, then cutting off the barrel to create an imitation Howdah pistol. And also without permission, turning a legal rifle into an illegal pistol. Somehow I think he may just get a shotgun on the black market or steal one and saw that off. And probably all unlicensed too.

As this is a free and open forum and international forum it is NOT a problem to discuss things and even in the state of Victoria and Australia and the USA free speech still exists. It is concerning to me how often we hear or read of shooters that want to 'police themselves' usually over-interpretting the law or making it worse than it is. Usually the excuse is "so not as to set bad example in the press or otherwise". You know the Jewish capo guards in the WW2 concentration and extermination camps helping the Nazis guard and ENFORCE the camps (10 Jewish guards to every 1 German guard ) probably thought the same thing.

***

If the wrong people read it they can go and fuck themselves. Free speech is more important here.

***

HOWDAHS. Anyone intending to actually convert a rifle into a shorter barrelled firearm please seek out your local firearms authorities to ensure what you intend to do can be legally done by you.


Hopefully that fixs the "concerns" of naysayers




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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RLI
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Re: Howdah Pistol in modern calibres? [Re: NitroX]
      #14720 - 13/05/04 11:45 PM

NitroX,
Very well put I totally agree.
RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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