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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Metalguy
.300 member


Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Sauer DR Project
      #145855 - 14/11/09 05:01 AM

I just ordered my donor gun for a DR build. It's a Sauer & Sohn s x s from the 60's. I paid $245 shipped from Simpsonltd.com . If you have never checked out this site, DO IT! It' really cool. I'll be posting pics as soon as I get it and figure out how to post them. I would like some suggestions on calibers though. I'm still undecided on this matter. I would also appreciate any help I can get from you all here. You're my only link to doing this kind of thing. Thanks I'll be eternally grateful for the help.

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Metalguy]
      #145901 - 15/11/09 12:56 AM

Metalguy,
Welcome to the club! First off, I would suggest you buy the book "Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions" by W. Ellis Brown. It will give you the basics involved in doing a conversion. Next, you need to decide for yourself what kind of hunting you want to do with your new double rifle and that will indicate what calibers to consider. There is a list in the book of calibers that will work well in a conversion rifle.
For myself, and the kind of hunting I do, I have settled on a 45-70 as the most appropriate caliber for my own use. I use iron sights with it , mostly for deer hunting, but it will also handle hogs, black bears, or Moose, given the right bullets and the right loads. I also like the 45-70 because it is cheap and easy to reload for and is considered a low intensity cartridge in the loadings that I use in it. If you feel that you need something that shoots a little flater, there are several recommended calibers in the book.
Next, you will either need a lathe or have access to a machinist who has one, and is willing to do work for you. A milling machine is also nice to have but you can get by without it if you have to. Also, you need to understand that this will take many hours to do and no small amount of monitary investment. If you do decide to go ahead with this project, I wish you all the best and hope you have a successful completion of your gun. You have found the right place to ask your questions. Bob H.

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Metalguy
.300 member


Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #145936 - 15/11/09 12:19 PM

I have already purchased Brown's book. I read it immediately. It really helped me to decide what type of action to purchase. As far as caliber goes, I am strongly considering the 375 jdj or the 405 winchester. I'm still undecided though. For what I want a DR for I really would like a caliber similar to these two. I don't want something that is going to cost me $5 or more for one piece of brass. That's why I'm hoping to get some feedback from the guys on this forum.

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baileybradshaw
.333 member


Reged: 21/06/08
Posts: 305
Loc: Diana, TX
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Metalguy]
      #145970 - 16/11/09 12:26 AM

405 gets my vote.... I want one too

--------------------
www.bradshawgunandrifle.com

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Metalguy
.300 member


Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: baileybradshaw]
      #145974 - 16/11/09 01:30 AM

The 405 does really peak my interest. I guess when I think of a DR, I think of some "different" chambering not everyone has heard of. I'll have to see what I can get barrels for?

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
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Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Metalguy]
      #145985 - 16/11/09 05:03 AM

I am currently working on a .405 for a friend. I first converted the barrels over and somewhat modified the buttstock so that I could shoot it and get it close before restocking it. I can tell you that with the loads we agreed on,(a 300 grain bullet at 2100 FPS), this caliber has plenty of horsepower. I didn't think it recoiled much more than a good stiff 45-70 load. I was somewhat apprehensive about building one on the .405 because I had never done one before or even thought of it as a good double rifle caliber. The man I'm doing this for wanted it to weigh between 10 and 10.5 pounds, and it will do that when I'm done. For myself, if I were building one for me to shoot, I would make it between 9 and 9.5 pounds. Good luck with your project.
What I do like about the .405 is that it shoots the same bullet weight as my 45-70 but because it is a smaller diameter, the .405 has much better sectional density and holds its speed up better than the 45-70's do. I think that with practice, the 405 could be a good 200 yard iron sighted gun, BUT, you would have to practice with it alot and get to know the sights and the gun intimately. Bob

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baileybradshaw
.333 member


Reged: 21/06/08
Posts: 305
Loc: Diana, TX
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #145989 - 16/11/09 05:17 AM

"I think that with practice, the 405 could be a good 200 yard iron sighted gun, BUT, you would have to practice with it alot and get to know the sights and the gun intimately."

That's where the fun is for me. Makes a rifle transform from a tool into a friend.

--------------------
www.bradshawgunandrifle.com

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Metalguy
.300 member


Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: baileybradshaw]
      #145998 - 16/11/09 08:25 AM

I think a 200 yard open sighted gun would be awesome! I already shoot NRA highpower, so I'm pretty used to shooting that and farther anyhow. Although DR sights are not as precise. They were never intended to be. I want a DR for the cool factor, and also the practicality of them. That's why whatever caliber I go with, it needs to be useful for where I live, and not overkill.

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Metalguy
.300 member


Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Metalguy]
      #146068 - 17/11/09 06:23 AM

Does anyone know where I can find "AFFORDABLE" barrels for a .405? I got to looking around and holy crap!! $200 seems like the bottom end. I found Adams & Bennett blanks at Midway for $80 each. These would be for the .375 jdj though. I called Midway & they don't offer custom chamberings like the .405. I think that sucks. This is my first build, soI don't want to break the bank too much.

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DaleS
.224 member


Reged: 17/11/09
Posts: 12
Loc: ny
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Metalguy]
      #146098 - 18/11/09 12:39 AM

I did a simular build using a Merkel 12ga. As far as the barrels go you just have to bite the bullet and pay the $200 I used Douglas. I thought about the .405 but went with the 450-400 instead.
Same barrels and the reamer was the same price, but just seems like more cool factor. I regulated with Hornady factory ammo (I can't see irons well so I added a scope in Talley lever lock rings) and after I finshed regulation I loaded some 300gr bullets and found the barrels regulation held (approx. 4" spread at 100yds.) but the sight regulation was off 12" but that was easy to ajust with the scope. The 300gr. bullet at about 2300fps proved to be enough gun for my whitetail last seaon. The only problem with the 12ga. frame is the gun is heavy 11+ lbs.

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: DaleS]
      #146100 - 18/11/09 12:52 AM

The final weight is one thing I am concerned about. If the rifle will balance well it's not that big of a deal, but if not I don't want to be dragging around a fence post. I might have my gunsmith lathe the profile down on the barrels a little. I just hate the thought of paying that much for barrels. I guess I just need to get it in my head that there will be two instead of one!

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Metalguy]
      #146126 - 18/11/09 09:32 AM

If you really want to be frugal, this is my idea for a "Poor Boy" .303 British.

Find a couple of take-off barrels chambered in 7.65 Argentine Mauser. There are scads of them around and most are virtually new condition. The rifle version is approx. 29" long - plenty to play with.

I have one in the back of my closet that is brand new condition. It's been there 25 years. I always envisioned a Martini project in .303 . . . .

The .303 Brit. is a superlative cartridge and definitely a traditional one for a double.

Just my $0.02!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Metalguy
.300 member


Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: CptCurl]
      #146132 - 18/11/09 10:02 AM

I had thought of this cartridge. I did look around for some "new" old surplus barrels. Another caliber I considered based on the .303 was the .338/303. Kind of unusual? I have a copy of "Big Bore Cartridges" and a short article is in there. I'm still waiting impatiently for my donor to arrive. I might go nuts in the meantime. If you're bored, check it out.

http://www.simpsonltd.com

It's item #z13333

It's old and beat up, but that's all part of the appeal. Simpson Limited has a very cool website! Thanlks for your input.

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Metalguy
.300 member


Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Metalguy]
      #146526 - 24/11/09 06:25 AM

I'm just curious on everyone's thoughts on either a 405 Winchester, or a 9.3 x 74r chambering for this rifle. I'm mainly concerned with pressures on the action. It does seem though that the 9.3 might actually be a better choice. I'd love any input. Thanks.

P.S. THE GUN SHOULD BE HERE WEDNESDAY THE 25th!!!!

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Metalguy]
      #146531 - 24/11/09 06:48 AM

Personally I'd go with the 9.3. This is based on alot of good brass, bullets and availability of factory ammo.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Metalguy
.300 member


Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: AkMike]
      #146536 - 24/11/09 07:28 AM

The pressure wouldn't be a problem would it? I think it'S a taste higher than a 405.

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Metalguy]
      #146540 - 24/11/09 08:26 AM

I don't know for sure. I don't have the pressure charts, BUT the 9.3 case in longer so it should have less pressure. I'm sure someone with the charts will add to this and clarify it.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Metalguy
.300 member


Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: AkMike]
      #146544 - 24/11/09 08:51 AM

The info I found states that the 405 is about 42,000 to 45,000 depending on the load. The 9.3 apparently has no SAMMI standard, but the ACCURATE powder company tested Norma factory ammo at 47,000 psi. I'm thinking it's on the verge of too much for a converted shotgun. In Brown's book he states the 9.3 is a "medium pressure" cartridge in his appendix. I just really want to take the pressure thing seriously. I don't want to put a bunch of work inot this rifle and have it blow during proofing.

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Metalguy]
      #146545 - 24/11/09 08:56 AM

Do a search here for "CIP". it's the euro standards and both rounds should be shown there.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: AkMike]
      #146549 - 24/11/09 09:27 AM

Thanks

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Metalguy]
      #146562 - 24/11/09 01:20 PM

Metalguy

It is not the pressure per se that is the imroptant factor. You need to know the MAP for the two cartridges and the base diamiter that the pressure works on in the two cases.

so R1xR1xPyexMAP=breach thrust.

Now you need to compare that to the thrust for 12 gauge cartridge that was the origional chambering.

What you need to bear in mind is that the action is goint to try and bend around the root where the standing breach meets the watertable.

If you want to do the clacs properly one should also consider the moment of the force as a smaller diamiter acts lower down the standing breach and reduces the force acting on the root.

The hoop pressure ie 47,000 v 42,000 is relitivly uninportant as the barrels steel (if the gun is properly assembled will happily take twice that pressure.

Regards

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Metalguy
.300 member


Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Bramble]
      #146571 - 24/11/09 02:32 PM

That does help me, even though it's sort of confusing at the same time. I'll do some research.

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Sarg
.400 member


Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: CptCurl]
      #146581 - 24/11/09 06:53 PM

Thank you Curl ! When I read your bit about 7.65 being plentyful , I thought they might be in the US but none down here !

Any way Im at my local Gunsmith looping 2in off a old 303 barrel to get back to some rifling & I asked "any old take off 303 barrels" he said look through the metal bin , non there , but I remember seeing a barrel propping the door open , had a look , bugger looks like Mauser , good bore ,like new , must be a 8X57 I think , wiping off more dust & 7.65X53 on it ! !

He said it's rubbish & gives it to me , so what do you do to them now ?

Might it fit on my old Steyr M95 in 6.5X53 , so I can convert to 303 ?

Cheers for that !

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: Sarg]
      #146599 - 25/11/09 01:10 AM

Sarg,

Congrats on your find. Those old 7.65 mm barrels are lying around everywhere. Slug the bore. It should be perfect for a .303.

Dunno about fitting a Steyr M95. I'm no gunsmith. Should be easy to figure out.

Find another and make a double rifle in .303!

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Sauer DR Project [Re: CptCurl]
      #146724 - 26/11/09 10:43 AM

It's Here! It's Here! I filled out my paperwork and picked it up today! I'm having another forum member hopefully post pictures very soon. I had to take them with my phone again, because I can't figure out how to turn off the flash on my wife's camera!!! I will be taking better pics and posting them though.

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