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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive

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Con
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Reged: 24/05/04
Posts: 261
Loc: Victoria
BSA catalogue image for Lee Speed restoration
      #139720 - 29/07/09 07:08 AM

Guys,
Has anyone got the old BSA catalogue (s) from the turn of last century or know of an online source?

I'm specifically after a page I've seen but naturally can no longer locate. In these catalogues where shown the BSA offerings including the sporting rifles based on the Lee Metford/Enfield actions.

But a few pages before (or after) where the more economical military inspired rifles (Trade Patterns?), no embellishments, only in 303British chamberings ... I think they were also designated the No1, No2 and No3 patterns. I'm after the page (copy, picture, whatever) that shows these rifles to assist in a rebuild. Specifically I'm 99% sure these 'Trade Patterns' used the military Metford sights, woodwork etc ... but I need to check and would love a picture.
Cheers...
Con


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simonsaorsa
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Reged: 11/05/06
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Re: BSA catalogue image for Lee Speed restoration [Re: Con]
      #139726 - 29/07/09 07:48 AM

try www.cornellpubs.com _ I reckon they will have one in repro which meets your needs.

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Con
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Reged: 24/05/04
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Re: BSA catalogue image for Lee Speed restoration [Re: simonsaorsa]
      #139733 - 29/07/09 11:35 AM

That's an interesting site for sure! Having a quick look, I'm wondering whether it's a non-BSA catalogue that I saw them in as I note some other British manufacturers refer to selling Enfields in both military and sporting configuration.
Cheers...
Con


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jc5
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Reged: 10/10/07
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Re: BSA catalogue image for Lee Speed restoration [Re: Con]
      #139737 - 29/07/09 12:29 PM

I'll send you the pages you need. Always happy to assist with a restoration.

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Con
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Reged: 24/05/04
Posts: 261
Loc: Victoria
Re: BSA catalogue image for Lee Speed restoration [Re: jc5]
      #139738 - 29/07/09 01:34 PM

jc5,
Email sent. Did you get the pictures of the Lee's I sent of mine and a mates rifle?

I'm not going mad am I? There really was a Trade Pattern style rifle that looked to be an undolled up version of the sporters and treaded the line between sporters and military configurations? I noticed on another catalogue photo an illustration of a sporting rifle in 4c configuration. I think I saw one a few months back for $650 and thought it was a bitza put together.
Cheers...
Con


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jc5
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Reged: 10/10/07
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Re: BSA catalogue image for Lee Speed restoration [Re: Con]
      #139745 - 29/07/09 04:12 PM

Yes Virgina, there really was a Trade Pattern carbine! No big mystery, though....the BSA catalogues that are currently reproduced by Cornell and also by Skennerton show three models. (There were other variations, but I'm still researching those, so I can't speak authoritatively there without more data).

Basically, the trade patterns were semi-military, I suppose you could say. They were advertised as "Officers Models" and so on. They filled a gap in the service pattern line-up. Remember that unlike the earlier Sniders and Martinis in British service, there never was an artillery pattern Lee Metford/Lee Enfield carbine. There was only the cavalry carbine (introduced in 1895), and it had neither sling swivels nor a bayonet lug. So if the particular needs of your outfit (colonial, cadet, paramilitary, whatever) required such fittings, I suppose you either had to buy from BSA or convince RSAF to make something up special for you. Regarding the former option, there's no record of anyone ever placing a large order with BSA for trade pattern carbs, the way that some governments did with the regular service pattern rifle. In the latter case, (having the Gov't cook something up), that is just what happened with the New Zealand pattern carbine, which resembles the BSA trade pattern fitted with the addition of a handguard. Basically, RSAF Enfield used a combination of converted cavalry carbs and some unused carb receivers and fitted up some 1500 rifles in this new pattern and sent them to NZ. Coggansfield over at the Lee Enfield forums can tell you more about those.

Another such job was the more famous (and much more common) RIC carbine, which was a cavalry carb conversion, with bayonet lug, swivels, and handguard. The fore-end had a somewhat ugly swell at the muzzle end to accommodate the design, and the thinner cavalry barrel required a bushing in order for the P88 bayonet to fit.

All this is well documented by Skennerton. Suffice to say, the lack of an artillery pattern carbine in British service eventually made it necessary to contrive something, and the result was the NZ carb and, later, the RIC carb. However, both of those were made obsolete by the SMLE pretty much as ssoon as they were issued. The BSA trade pattern carb was more likely to be purchased by officers who wanted something a bit fancier. I have one with the markings of a Volunteer unit. I am not an expert on the Volunteer movement by any means, but I understand that many members of these units could afford something a bit higher than your average service pattern standard-issue rifle, and were often willing to spend more. Aside from Volunteers and private purchase, these rifles may have seen service as part of a batch that was purchased by the Admiralty in WWI. Rowdy has one TPC with naval markings, and it might be one of those.

Although the No. 4 pattern is usually listed on the same catalogue page as the TPCs No.1, 2,3, it really is a different beast---it is a low-end sporter, really, and not even pseudo-military. Of course, the No.4s are wonderful rifles, and most owners agree that in fine condition they shoot very well. I love the No.4 sporters, but they are in the "sporting" category and do not straddle the line between military and civilian rifles. If you were really on a budget, you could get one with military sights and shave a few pence off the price!

There SO MANY variations of these Lee Speeds, that one must be careful before dismissing any specimen too quickly as a bitsa. I suspect that there are a great many commercial BSA rifles out there (both sporters and service patterns), that have slipped under the radar and been misidentified as common surplus bubbas and then sold off or hacked up with scope drillings.

Some really are bitsas, though. I have seen some where rather than retire the rifle, the owner has replaced a worn out barrel with one from a surplus rifle, and so on in that vein.

(BTW, Con, your email has not arrived yet).

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.

Edited by jc5 (29/07/09 04:13 PM)


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Con
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Reged: 24/05/04
Posts: 261
Loc: Victoria
Re: BSA catalogue image for Lee Speed restoration [Re: jc5]
      #139746 - 29/07/09 04:30 PM

jc5,
Many thanks for the info listed above. I've tried emailing the pictures again from another email address. Work filters may be having a heart-attack at the images. Should be something coming from my Hotmail account. see what you think when you get the pictures ... and dont hesitate to ask for photos under the woodline. I just need to get the wood off and some of the screws are being difficult!
Cheers...
Con


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jc5
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Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 162
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Re: BSA catalogue image for Lee Speed restoration [Re: Con]
      #139749 - 29/07/09 05:06 PM

Got your email! When we have figured out what's up, we can post some pics and conclusions to this thread, so that the other forum members can see. Offline conversations are good for sorting things out, but I believe we should 'share with the class' whenever possible. This forum has been good to me and I want return the favor whenever I can.

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Rowdy
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Reged: 12/09/04
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Re: BSA catalogue image for Lee Speed restoration [Re: jc5]
      #139751 - 29/07/09 05:54 PM

Ian Skennerton publishes a reproduction of the 1912 BSA catalogue - have a page on photobucket if I can bring it up.

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Con
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Reged: 24/05/04
Posts: 261
Loc: Victoria
Re: BSA catalogue image for Lee Speed restoration [Re: jc5]
      #139752 - 29/07/09 05:54 PM

No worries ... I'll post the pictures up in a few days when I get organised.
Cheers...
Con


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simonsaorsa
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Re: BSA catalogue image for Lee Speed restoration [Re: Con]
      #145252 - 06/11/09 09:45 AM

Check out my post today about the NSRA website- it has some pre-WW1 BSA catalogues and also their own sub-site on the Lee Speed for photos of carbines.

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