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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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Tatume
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Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
H777 corrosive byproducts
      #145169 - 05/11/09 03:05 AM

Yes, there are perchlorate salts in the combustion residue of Triple Seven. However, there is not a great deal of perchlorate present. It is easily cleaned from the firearm with water.

I would suggest that the sulfur salts present after the combustion of black powder are more corrosive than the products of combustion created by Triple Seven. Tests conducted by the DOD and NASA confirm this.

Our testing indicates that if we use a scale with smokeless powder at one end with a value of zero and black powder at the other end with a value of 100, Triple Seven would be about 30 on the scale. While less corrosive than black powder, it is certainly corrosive and any firearm used with it should be cleaned after use.

The whole argument these guys make is rather irritating as you must clean the rifle after the use of all muzzleloading powders so there is no problem with corrosion anyway unless the shooter is lazy or does a poor job of cleaning.

Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
Hodgdon Smokeless Powders
Winchester Legendary Propellants
IMR Propellants
Pyrodex
Triple Seven
Goex Black Powder

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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DarylSModerator
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: Tatume]
      #145171 - 05/11/09 03:21 AM

Good post, Tom - I wasn't sure about T-7's properties other than it's problems with heavier loads in my .69.

I am told that BP fouling itself is not corrosive - it needs to absorb moisture, then becomes an ozidizer, whereas the percholates are, without the addition of water (iirc). BP fouling actually needs water or moisture absorbtion and only become an oxidizer if the humidity is in excess of 35% whereas the addition of any moisture strengthens the acidic nature of percholate powders. I'm just repeating what I've gleaned from other sources.
I have read that T7 is not as bad in this regards as-is Pyrodex. Too, due to it's own chemical nature, T-7 is longer lasting than Pyrodex once opened, whereas pyro loses power rather quickly incomparison.

My own tests have shown BP fouling is not an oxidizer without the absorbsion of moisture. Kept at an ambient humidity of 30%, there was no oxidation to the surface of the metal over a 7 day period, but there was minor colour change from clean and shiny, where-as Pyrodex etched the surface quite evenly, end to end of the test material under the same conditions. Hardly Lab oriented, but useful just the same. I flushed all the pyrodex I had at that time.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tatume
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: DarylS]
      #145172 - 05/11/09 03:38 AM

Hi Daryl,

Over the years I've been given Pyrodex as Christmas stocking stuffers several times. Each time I waited an appropriate period, and then discretely gave it away to someone who uses it. I won't use Pyrodex in my guns.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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DoubleD
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: Tatume]
      #145176 - 05/11/09 05:27 AM

Well T7 sure isn't brass friendly!

Every piece of 577/450 brass I have that was shot with T-7 has failed. Some of this brass has never been shot with anything else either. It's not your standard neck split type failure either, it just seems to decompose.

Picture as soon as I change the hard drive in my computer and get off the wifes...

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: DoubleD]
      #145216 - 05/11/09 05:49 PM

I'm interested, DD - pictures will show valuable information to those who load - I had similar brass trouble with Pyrodex years ago and merely discarded the brass that had been shot with it.

Too- shot to shot velcoity spreads more than doubled with Pyrodex over real black powder. This shows on targets at longer ranges - ie: even at 200yards, you start to see vertical dispersion due to higher and lower velocity rounds.

I do not know if this happens with T-7.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DoubleD
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: DarylS]
      #145261 - 06/11/09 12:49 PM

I found the Bertram Cases.

These cases have never fired any other powder than Triple 7.

They were decapped, not sized then washed and walnut shell tumbled and put in astorage box sometime in 2005 before I went down to SA to work. This is how they came out of the box.

While looking for these to take pictures, I found a box of 45/70 that were shot with pyrodex, cleaned and put away 10-14 years ago and they are ugly.






The cases were stained but clean when put away!!!

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: DoubleD]
      #145266 - 06/11/09 01:44 PM

Obviously, something other than water needs to be used to stop the corrosive nature that seems apparent.

Those cases look worse than if they'd been fired with mucuric primers - rotten full length, probably.

I found a similar case that escaped the round file, a .45 3-1/4" that had been fired with Pyrodex - looks very similar in the neck area where it's thinner, but has weak spots along it's length, as well.

Thanks for the pictures, DD.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BillfromOregon
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: DarylS]
      #145428 - 09/11/09 02:54 AM

Douglas: Thanks for posting the photo. I had no idea Triple Seven was so hard on brass. Your old friend Bill on Wagner Creek ...

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Dphariss
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: Tatume]
      #145899 - 15/11/09 12:50 AM

In *independent* testing P-dex is worst, T-7 second, BP third in corrosivness. T-7 is about 1/2 way between p-dex and T-7. I think T-7 is about 20-30% perchlorate. Its a revised P-dex which has far more perchlorate. T-7 is covered by the P-dex patent if I am properly informed.
I am also told that the perchlorate fouling will rust under an oil film.
If these perchlorate powders are used in old guns with existing pits its very difficult to get the rusting stopped. Not matter how much water you use.

The P-dex/ t-7 residue is highly corrosive and even a 1/2 grain or less in a primer (Potassium Chlorate in primers) will eat bores as a frightening rate.
BP is basically non-corrosive at less than 30% Relative Humidity.

I can only speak to what I have seen, experienced and had reported to me over the years. I either shoot BP or smokeless. I avoid the synthetics.
I am alarmed that Hodgdon now controls not only Pyrodex etc but also Goex. The profit margin for Goex's sporting BP line is not all that high I am told....


Dan

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tinker
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: Dphariss]
      #145904 - 15/11/09 02:13 AM

Dan-


See if you can dig up the source of the independent testing.
The 'black powder is much more corrosive/dirty/difficult to clean' myth is day-to-day being perpetuated and it would be good to have a solid 'name to name when naming names' to throw down on the table for the guys who won't listen otherwise.






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Dphariss
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: tinker]
      #145980 - 16/11/09 02:55 AM

Quote:

Dan-


See if you can dig up the source of the independent testing.
The 'black powder is much more corrosive/dirty/difficult to clean' myth is day-to-day being perpetuated and it would be good to have a solid 'name to name when naming names' to throw down on the table for the guys who won't listen otherwise.






Cheers
Tinker




While working for a couple of BPCR makers and shooting BPCR competition I had opportunity to examine a lot of guns, do some testing with company guns and see the guns used by customers and competitors.

If you have some of these powders polish a 1" wide by 12" long piece of steel so that its perfectly clean on one side. Belt sander will work.
Place a paper over one end and flash a small pile of BP on the other. Then cover the BP end and flash the other stuff on other end.
Set in some dry place (free of physical water, a shelf in a shop or house will work) and check periodically. In low humidity Montana the BP end will not rust in 2 weeks (remember the 30% humidity thing with BP). Not so the other end of the bar.
I have never seen a gun used to any extent with the corrosive powders that did not show evidence of what was used. BP is far less of a problem and I know of rifles that have been shot for years and 10s of thousands of rounds with BP and the bores look just like new.

One must be careful "naming names" when dealing with a company with lots of money for lawyers. Believe it. The truth is no defense against the lawyers.
The magazines (other than a letter to the editor in Rifle or Handloader years ago about a barrel ruined over night) just will not publish anything that might damage an advertiser.
Trust me.
So do your own careful testing make your own decisions based on that.
Dan

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tinker
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: Dphariss]
      #145981 - 16/11/09 03:27 AM

Dan-


I need no convincing myself.
As you likely know though, there's quite a resistance to this 'out there'





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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PBR
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Reged: 21/08/09
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: tinker]
      #146325 - 21/11/09 05:01 AM

Pyrodex is incredibly corrosive. You have to clean the gun within 3 days of shooting.
Triple 7 on the other hand, I have intentionally waited 2 full weeks after shooting my revolver. Finally I got tired of looking at it and the thing cleaned up 100% fine. I don't know how much more time I could have given it and you miliage may vary.

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Tatume
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: PBR]
      #146332 - 21/11/09 08:46 AM

Quote:

Pyrodex is incredibly corrosive. You have to clean the gun within 3 days of shooting.
Triple 7 on the other hand, I have intentionally waited 2 full weeks after shooting my revolver. Finally I got tired of looking at it and the thing cleaned up 100% fine. I don't know how much more time I could have given it and you milage may vary.



I don't use Pyrodex and have no experience with it. On the other hand, I've been using Triple 7 with T/C Bore Butter for many years now. It cleans up incredibly easy and leaves behind no corrosive contaminants. A couple of water-dampened patches, dry patches, and a patch with Bore Butter are all it takes. I clean my guns immediately after shooting. After many years of use, my bores are spotless and bright.

Triple 7 does not ignite well in my flintlocks. In them I use black powder.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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Dphariss
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: PBR]
      #146364 - 22/11/09 12:31 PM

Quote:

Pyrodex is incredibly corrosive. You have to clean the gun within 3 days of shooting.
Triple 7 on the other hand, I have intentionally waited 2 full weeks after shooting my revolver. Finally I got tired of looking at it and the thing cleaned up 100% fine. I don't know how much more time I could have given it and you miliage may vary.



T-7 has the same "active ingredient" as P-dex does according to my friend who is an acknowledged expert in the field.
It is covered by the same patent or so I am told.
It is less active than Pyrodex but will do the same thing only in a little longer time frame.
Leaving a gun 2 weeks with BP will cause "frosting", micro pit, if the humidity is over 30% and might even do it at less RH if left that long. I cannot imagine T-7 doing any less.
The thing one must remember is that the stuff does not have to create red rust to cause damage so finding no rust is not a sign there is no damage.

Dan

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PBR
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: Dphariss]
      #146514 - 24/11/09 03:56 AM

Quote:

The thing one must remember is that the stuff does not have to create red rust to cause damage so finding no rust is not a sign there is no damage.




What's nice about the blackpowder revolvers is the fact you can take the cylinder out and shine a light up and down the short 8" barrel for a great look. You can't hardly do that with a traditional sidelock rifle because of the much smaller bolster screw and a 30" barrel.

As I said, your miliage may vary. If someone wants to experiement with their rifle and push the issue with 777, I would be checking it every day.

I hate shooting the gun on a sunday night, clean it, load it up again that saturday morning for a hunt, fire it, and clean the thing again.
It saves me a cleaning (two actually since we can use 2guns/revolvers here).

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DarylSModerator
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: PBR]
      #146598 - 25/11/09 12:58 AM

I tend to be lazy but always clean by the day after I've shot the gun, leaving a gun any longer than that is asking for pitting, indeed in very moist areas, even a day's sitting with fouling is asking for trouble. Any pitting you start, will progress & waiting 3 days is really asking for trouble. Of course, this depends on the relative humidity as Dan indicated and which propellent you use.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylSModerator
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: DarylS]
      #149355 - 03/01/10 09:45 AM

If anyone is interested in learning more about the phoney BP's, check out the "Breech Failure" thread in gun building at the ALR site.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: DarylS]
      #149359 - 03/01/10 11:39 AM

Daryl-


Can you post a link to that discussion please?







Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DoubleD
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: tinker]
      #149361 - 03/01/10 12:05 PM

ALR American Legion Riders?

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DD, Ret.

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DoubleD
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Re: H777 corrosive byproducts [Re: DoubleD]
      #149362 - 03/01/10 12:13 PM

Found it Breech failure

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DD, Ret.

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