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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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450Dakota
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Reged: 18/03/04
Posts: 113
Loc: California, USA
HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4
      #14502 - 08/05/04 11:55 AM

A dealer here in Calif sent me email today telling me he has an Army Navy 450/400 3 1/4.. I plan on calling him in the morning. Being very new to the double rifle world I have'nt a clue on value or what to look for, let alone cartridge performance and availability.. I need help fast and am relying on fellow NitroXer's to bail me out... BTW the dealer a specializes in hi end double rifles and shotguns.. He stands 100% behind all his sales.Thanks Guy's450

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mickey
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 450Dakota]
      #14507 - 08/05/04 02:04 PM

I sold and Army Navy 450/400 3 1/4 to Ray and he used it in Africa last Fall.

They are quality rifles built by a few of the Birmingham and London makers. Could be anybody. What is it a Boxlock or a Sidelock?

The cartridges are easily handloaded with a good selection of bullets. Brass is available from BeLL.

Value will vary. I would guess that for a Boxlock, if the rifle is in top nick mechanically, it would start at $6500 and go up to about $10,000-11,000 depending on appearance. Rough guess without more info.

What specifically do you want to know?

I have a Alex Henry in that caliber and love it. I have only had it about 6 months but it is quickly becoming a favorite because of the quality and the caliber. Low recoil and a heavy punch.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Gibbs505
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 450Dakota]
      #14509 - 08/05/04 02:08 PM

If I had the cash I would beat you down there!!

--------------------
So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 450Dakota]
      #14522 - 08/05/04 11:01 PM

The .400 calibre rifle is the perfect beginner's double IMO, and may well end up being the last double you ever own too! Provided you reload, the chambering will give you every satisfaction I'm sure. I have hunted with one on the 3-inch case for many years, and exclusively for several years, and never found it wanting on buffalo and boars.

Bore-size is important in the .400, both .408 and .411 projectiles are available, if the size is other than either of these, good jacketed bullets may be a little harder to source.

Try to shoot the rifle for accuracy and regulation before buying, or arrange a money-back guarantee if it doesn't shoot. The worst is one barrel group significantly higher than the other on the target, this normally requires re-regulation.

Good luck with it, I hope it falls in your price-range, they are marvellous things!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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450Dakota
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Reged: 18/03/04
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 450Dakota]
      #14527 - 09/05/04 12:17 AM

You all are gentlemen and smart guy's! I can't thank you enough for comeing to my aid and taking me under your wings on such short notice, Mickey has been extremly helpful behind the scenes. Forgive my ignorance, remember I come from the hi pres/velocity bolt world, but useing cartridges of the world for referance, isnt .40cal 400gr. at 2150fps a wee bit on the light side for twisting ole Mbogo's mean ass tail.. I hate the thought of my P/H finishing something that I started.. Yes I realise shot placement is everything, but real world and Murphy are alway's at your elbow, whispering in your ear, that you are but a mere mortal... Looking forward to your thoughts......



450

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 450Dakota]
      #14528 - 09/05/04 12:32 AM

Dakota

Army & Navy CSL (stands for Co-operative Society Limited) has it's origins in 1874 when a group of British Army and Navy officer decided that they were being "dudded" by their wine merhants(Nitrox take note!) and decided to form a buying co-operative and buy at wholesale prices.

In time, the business devoped and in addition to the original premises at Victoria Street, Westminster, branches were opened in Bombay, Calcutta and Karachi.

The range of goods sold eventually included just about everything an officer could want, including clothing, watches, saddles, golf clubs, campaign chairs. etc, including guns and amunition.

It was customary for officers going out to the British Colonies get themselves fully kitted out there.

Army & Navy were not Gunmakers, but outsourced from the Guntrade, including Winchester, Browning and some German makers.

Army & Navy double guns and rifles were generally sourced from the standard lines of British Gunmakers, but their Gun Department manager, Mr. Rodgers, actually designed and patented in his own right. A friend of mine has a very interesting Army & Navy sidelock shotgun, with an articulated "knuckle" that was designed by him. Very rare.

However, most of their clientele were "bargain hunters" and thus boxlock customers. The majority of Army & Navy DR's were built on Webley & Scott Screw Grip or the later PHV1 actions, arguably the finest A&D type boxlock rifle action ever.

Gunmakers like Rigby used them - what more endorsement would one need?

If "your" rifle is one of these and hasn't been monkeyed around with, you can be assured that it is a fine "weapon of the chase' that will stand you in good stead for many years to come.

AS for it's value, I reckon Mickey's got things covered.

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mickey
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14533 - 09/05/04 12:57 AM

450D

Plenty of poop for a Buffalo and adequate for Elephant. You need to pick up a copy of John Taylors 'African Rifles and Cartridges' check Amazon for a good price. Also get a copy of Graham Wrights 'Loading for the British Double vol 2'.

This caliber was a real favorite and probably the most popular of all the Double Rifle calibers. It combines handling and power with low felt recoil and plenty of snot for Plainsgame and DG.

Make sure your dealer tells you what kind of action it has and get an inspection period. I insist on a minimum of 5 days and not 3 because of the weather at times. If you can get another opinion of a knowledgeable person when you have it. For the money a couple of hour drive is not a bad investment.

Tell him you want to shoot it and get at least 4 rounds of ammo. Shoot two rights and 2 lefts at different targets to see how each barrel regulates. Each barrel should regulate a 1-1.5 inch group. Don't worry too much about how far apart they are but as stated vertical can be a problem if it is more than about 1.5-2" at 50 yards.

Make sure he sends along the case if it has one or a fiberglass takedown case at least.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14537 - 09/05/04 02:04 AM

In reply to:

has it's origins in 1874 when a group of British Army and Navy officer decided that they were being "dudded" by their wine merhants(Nitrox take note!)



First "magnum", now the Army and Navy connection. See it is fated.

450Dakota, I shifted the thread to double rifles. You will get more views and comments there.

Good luck, I hope it turns out well and I wouldn't worry about a 400 gr bullets at 2100 fps.





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 450Dakota]
      #14541 - 09/05/04 03:43 AM

With the 450/400 3 1/4" , the first thing you need do is make sure the rifle is NITRO PROOFED! The 450/400 3 1/4" was offered in black powder first, and when the NITRO came out, the case was not changed, so a NITRO will chamber, and shoot in a black powder rifle. The 450/400 3" was never offered in blackpowder form, so there is no worry with it. The 450/400 3" will not chamber in the 450/400 3 1/4" chamber, as the cases are different, but the 3 1/4" NITRO version will!

If this is a NITRO rifle it will be stated on the bottom of the barrel flats, and will usually give you the regulation distance as well as, whether it was regulated/proofed for full Nitro loads, or Tropical loads. The full load will be 60.0 grs Cordite, with a 400 gr bullet, @ 2125 fps, 16.00 tons chamber pressure, developeing 4,010 FPE at muzzle, and is one of the best Cape Buffalo double rifle rounds ever made! With proper soft points it can't be beaten for lion, even in close quarters. The rifles are light enough so they can be carried for hours without undue fatigue.

Good luck

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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NE450No2
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 450Dakota]
      #14542 - 09/05/04 04:04 AM

450 Dakota
Find out if the rifle has .408 or .411 diameter barrels. Then you can order some ammo from www.superiorammo.com.
Get 400gr Woodleigh Softs and Solids. There ammo is very good and should give you some indication how the rifle shoots.
The 450/400 has plenty of power for any game uncluding buffalo and elephant. I have used my 450/400 3 1/4" to take deer, wild pigs, caribou, and black bear, I took it on a brown bear hunt but did not get a shot. Give us some more info on the rifle, ie bbl length, weight, the load stated on the bbl flats and which action it is built on. Pictures would enable the experts here to give you exact info.

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450Dakota
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Reged: 18/03/04
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 450Dakota]
      #14546 - 09/05/04 07:19 AM

Well I just talked to the dealer after studying all the info everybody was so kind to give. But unfortunatly it is out of my reach. deatails: A very correct gun in every way, right down to the proper pad, 26" barrels, box lock with lots of engraving for an Army-Navy, very nice wood, looks to be refurbed once, regulated 60grs cord 400gr bullet, on face, not in original case.. $11,000.00 Knocks me out of the play. He also has a Greener same caliber that he say's is just mint in original case, above and beyond what anyone could dream of.. I have known this guy for years, and if anything he tends to downplay his descriptions. The Greener is $16K.... As his usual, inspect as much and as long as you want as well as shoot it, if your unhappy in any way return for your $$$ back.. Once again,Thank You all for your generous help and advice. My apolagies for the false alarm... If anyone is interested I can furnish name and numbers for this dealer..



450

Edited by 450Dakota (09/05/04 07:27 AM)

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mickey
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 450Dakota]
      #14547 - 09/05/04 07:59 AM

450D

Too bad but these things have a way of working out. Something else will come along. That's top Dollar for the A/N and, I think, way too much for the Greener.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #14553 - 09/05/04 10:07 AM

DUGABOY
In reply to:

If this is a NITRO rifle it will be stated on the bottom of the barrel flats, and will usually give you the regulation distance as well as, whether it was regulated/proofed for full Nitro loads, or Tropical loads. The full load will be 60.0 grs Cordite,



Just need to clear up a few of the issues raised here,viz;

Nitro Proof - the tricky thing is, before Nitro Proof became mandatory in 1925, a Gunmaker could make a rifle that withstood full nitro loads and shot to regulation, but could legally sell the gun with Black Powder proof, presumably to reduce costs. This happened rarely, but there are examples floating around, incuding a very nice Dan'l Fraser 450/400. Also, during this period a gunmaker could have a rifle prooved for whatever "Nitro" load he wished, and one may encounter rifles carrying "Riflite" proof marks, with no mention of Cordite at all.

Regulation Distance - I have never seen this. Could you amplify?

Tropical Loads - were actually "full nitro" loads, when shot where most of these rifles were intended for use - the tropics. For example, the pressure generated in the 55 grain 450/400-31/4" Cordite "TROPICAL" load was held to 17 tons when shot at 120 deg.F, compared to the 60 grain load's development of 16.5 tons at 60 deg. for the same muzzle velocity. (from "The Field", 1904). In this sense, rifles carrying "tropical" proof marks cannot be viewed as anything less than "Full Nitro" rifles.

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atkinson6
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14730 - 14/05/04 04:29 AM

Offer him $9,000.00. I suspect thats what its worth..I have seen a lot of AN 450s sell for $8000 to $9000 in top condition...

Also keep in mind that Butch Searcy will build you a nice light 450-400 in 3" or 3.25 for $9500. and it will shoot great and be new..It will even shoot Barnes X bullets...

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450Dakota
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: atkinson6]
      #14794 - 15/05/04 04:29 AM

Hi Ray,I was thinking the same thing. Between that or looking more for somthing in .458 cal. As I'm leaving for Zim soon, it's a little late in the game for me to switch D/G rifles anyway's.. If he still has it when I get back and I've gathered a little more smarts about doubles, I will try to beat him down. I have still yet to see this rifle let alone lay my hands on her......450

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atkinson6
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 450Dakota]
      #14909 - 18/05/04 04:10 AM

Dakota,
Although I don't always practice what I preach, one should always shoot a used double before he buy it, and see how it reacts and what size groups it shoots...REAL GOOD advise.

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470Rigby
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Re: HELP!! Amateur question Re: Army/Navy 450/400 3 1/4 [Re: 450Dakota]
      #17515 - 01/08/04 11:30 PM

450 Dakota

The House of Frazer took over the Army & Navy business in 1973 and the records of the gun department from 1890 to 1942 were given to the Business Records Centre of the University of Glasgow. For a fee of about £25, records of individual guns can be obtained from The Duty Archivist, Archives and Business Records Centre, University of Glasgow, 13 Thurso Street, Glasgow G12 8QQ (www.archives.gla.ac.uk) Tel: 0141 3398855 (personal callers can view the records free)

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