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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Andrew
.224 member


Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 15
Loc: West Midlands - uk
Manton &Co Double RIfle.
      #144842 - 31/10/09 10:37 AM

Dear all.

I have just acquired a Manton & Co double rifle. The calibre is in .500 Nitro for black powder. The serial number is 5168.

It has apparently only recently returned to the UK from India where it has spend most of its life. It is in good condition overall and to the extend it makes you wonder whether some of the budget guns of today will ever last as long as some of these old classics.

Can anyone help me in terms of aging this rifle? We guess around 1900, but we are not sure. Also, does anyone know anything about the caliber? From what I can tell, it seems to fill the gap between the 3 inch black powder round, and the later .500 nitro. Its a bit of a transitional caliber. All I can find is in Cartridges of the world which seems to have it at 3500 ft/lbs, so its no slouch. Does anyone know of any other historical or other load data about this caliber on the web?

I look forward to your replies.

Andrew

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: Andrew]
      #144862 - 31/10/09 02:50 PM

Andrew,

Manton and Co still exists as a business in Calcutta and if you know someone there, you might be able to get them to show them the records. It can be difficult dealing with them from overseas, though.

Whenever you have time, please do try and post pictures of your rifle here. As the official forum pesterer for gun and hunting pictures, I am fond of telling everyone who posts about a gun that they need to show her pictures off. Wouldn;t you brag if you had Keira Knightley on your arm?

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Andrew
.224 member


Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 15
Loc: West Midlands - uk
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #144932 - 02/11/09 12:03 AM

Can you advise how I post pictures please, I have never done this before!!

Andrew

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: Andrew]
      #144941 - 02/11/09 02:44 AM

Andrew-


Read the following discussion, from a link to another high-integrity hunting site.


Link To Photo Instructions


That should get you on track.


To simplify things here, you need to get your images on a hosting site, then properly link them to this discussion.
Photo files take up a lot of equipment resource, this site doesn't have the machinery to store the photo files (most sites like this are run in a similar fashion) so the common practice is to link them.

Read the above discussion.
You'll likely get it sooner than later.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Andrew
.224 member


Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 15
Loc: West Midlands - uk
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: tinker]
      #144944 - 02/11/09 03:57 AM

I hope this works.

http://s600.photobucket.com/albums/tt89/AWB-8mag/Manton/[/image]
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt89/AWB-8mag/Manton/L1000590.jpg
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt89/AWB-8mag/Manton/L1000597.jpg
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt89/AWB-8mag/Manton/L1000591.jpg
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt89/AWB-8mag/Manton/L1000588.jpg

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: Andrew]
      #144948 - 02/11/09 04:59 AM




Fixed it.
Look at my notes in the other thread.











Nice Rifle!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: tinker]
      #144951 - 02/11/09 06:52 AM



Very nice indeed.

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Andrew
.224 member


Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 15
Loc: West Midlands - uk
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: tinker]
      #144961 - 02/11/09 07:57 AM

Thanks Again Tinker!!!!

Very much appreciated.

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: Andrew]
      #144964 - 02/11/09 08:37 AM

Andrew,

Congratulations! That is a beautiful rifle!

Should be well worth researching even if it takes a little time.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: tinker]
      #145028 - 03/11/09 02:08 AM



I too have an interest in Mantons...I wonder if they have the records from the glamourperiod??

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: Andrew]
      #145030 - 03/11/09 02:15 AM



Scroll down...

http://images.google.dk/imgres?imgurl=ht...t%3D18%26um%3D1

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Andrew
.224 member


Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 15
Loc: West Midlands - uk
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: rigbymauser]
      #145036 - 03/11/09 04:23 AM

Very similar to mine isn't it?

I think mine is .500x3 Nitro for black. I cant see any other proof mark to indicate clearance for a larger calibre.

I have to say, I wouldn't like to try and get a heart shot at 250yrds with those open sights!!

Regards

Andrew

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27022
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: Andrew]
      #145038 - 03/11/09 04:31 AM

English Express Sights can be very accurate. My RoundBall 14 bore single has express sights and makes 5 shot diagrams of 1" to 1.5" at 100yards and a best of 1.5" wide x 3.5" high for 6 consecutive shots at 200 off the bags. They are not "ONLY" 25 yard sights. One must practise, though, after much work finding an accuracy load for the gun.

Beautiful rifle, by the way - way to go.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: Andrew]
      #145044 - 03/11/09 06:09 AM

Andrew:

That's a lovely old Manton.

Your rifle is a .500 BPE. It was not specifically proven for Nitro-for-black, as your rifle was built before that loading was introduced and before Nitro Proof was available. Your rifle was proved in London between 1875 and 1887. The bore was marked in gauge - "39" - at the proof house rather than in English decimal - 500. Notice that the "500" is marked only on the right barrel. That isn't a proof house mark. Proof house marks have always been made on all barrels, not just one. The marks of the London Proof House are those duplicated on both barrels and the action flat - there should be a "view" mark (crown over V) on both sides of the water table.

Britain's proof houses marked the bore size of rifles and shotguns BOTH in gauge until the new rules of 1887, at which time the mark for rifles was changed to the nominal bore in decimals, thus "39" became "500" in 1887.

Nitro Proof was introduced under the 1887 rules. The famous nitro proof MARK wasn't introduced until 1904. A rifle specifically proved for the Nitro-for-black loading under the 1887 rules would be stamped on the flats of both barrels "Cordite 55grs - 440grs bullet max'm" and there would be no Nitro Proof mark. After 1904, the marks would be "Cordite 55 - 440MAX", with the new Nitro Proof mark added. The marks on your gun are precisely those of an ordinary BPE proved before 1887.

Further, the Nitro-for-black loading gets a bit confusing.

Quote:

From what I can tell, it seems to fill the gap between the 3 inch black powder round, and the later .500 nitro.



That isn't really correct. A rifle specifically proved for Nitro-for-black is no different from any other rifle proved only for the black powder version of the cartridge, as there was never any difference in the proof standards of the two. Nitro-for-black means exactly what it says - nitro powder cartridges specifically developed for, and intended for use in, rifles built and proved for the BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE. By British proof law, these cartridges could not develop greater pressure than the black powder version, or they couldn't be marketed as "Nitro-for-black". Technically, any BPE rifle that's "in proof" is a Nitro-for-black rifle, as that is what NFB cartridges were developed for. The fact that a few BPE rifles were specifically marked as proved for the NFB load back in the day resulted in considerable confusion on that point over the years.

If the bores are as good as the rest, you have a keeper.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: rigbymauser]
      #145047 - 03/11/09 06:26 AM

Jens,

Thank you very much for giving members here a picture of what Manton have been reduced to! Sadly, the other big Calcutta names - Daw, Rodda etc are all not doing any better though all of them have their respective gunmaking licenses intact. P Orr and Sons in Chennai surrendered their license and now sell cheap watches.

Good hunting, my friend!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #145060 - 03/11/09 08:30 AM

Hallo Shikari Mehul

You are so true...I hav browsed and looked over the "net" to find an e.mail adress on Mantons in India or perhaps a phonenumber, but ofcouse we still have their streetadress outside their shop.
I have seen old pictures from the early 1900s...everything has changed to the worser .

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: Andrew]
      #145061 - 03/11/09 08:38 AM

Adress list Calcutta 1940..

http://members.lycos.co.uk/calcutta1940s/addressbook.html


1880s Calcutta Old Court house str.

http://www.blogcatalog.com/blog/old-indian-photos/c0ad1be8894c62776947614451dbd5c7

1915s Old court house str.
http://www.imagesofasia.com/html/india/30-dalhousie-square.html

Registered Companys in Calcutta..

APPENDIX I
SOME TYPES OF GOVERNMENTAL AND PRIVATE CONTRACTS HELD BY LEADING RETAIL FIRMS IN CALCUTTA, 1880-1920

Firm Business Contracts Warrant Holder*
Cooke & Kelvey jewellers presentation watches, —
clocks to Indian and
provincial govts.; office
and railway clocks
Deschamps & Co. furniture furniture, decorating —•
makers
Great Eastern provisioners wholesale supply to
Stores plantations
Hall & Anderson department furnishers to royal visitors
store and viceroys
Hamilton & Co. jewellers state jewellery for princes; —
presentation pieces for
govt. offices; auction
contracts for G. of India
and princes
Kellner & Co. provisioners, caterers for durbars, state
wine occasions; railway catering;
merchants, Royal Calcutta Turf Club;
caterers race meet caterers
Lazarus & Co. cabinet corporation office decorations;
makers club furniture: billiard tables
Leslie & Co. hardware war material, 1914-18 war G. of
merchants India; typewriters for govt. &
corporate offices
Walter Locke & Co . electrical ceiling fans for govt. offices;
goods, sport- safes and meters for municipal
ing goods councils; electrical work for
Govt. of India
Manton & Co. gun makers gun supply to Indian princes;
service to Indian Army
Morrison & bootmakers & saddles etc. for Princes; leather
Cottle saddlers items for clubs, police forces
Phelps & Co. tailors, design of uniforms for Indian —
outfitters Army
Rankin & Co. tailors early design uniforms for
Indian Army; robemakers for
official decorative orders
Stewart & Co. carriage state carriages for princes;
makers Indian government
Thacker, Spink publishers, government publications &
&Co. booksellers sales
*Holder of royal or official warrant; entitled to state "by appointment to. . . ." Includes appointment to British royalty and Indian viceroys, lieutenant-governors, governors.
SOURCES: Trade directors, advertisements, W.H.M. Cameron (compiler), Ports and Cities of the World.



Edited by rigbymauser (03/11/09 08:55 AM)

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: rigbymauser]
      #145191 - 05/11/09 11:07 AM

Jens,

Thank you very much again! In 1972, I spent my summer holidays with an aunt in Calcutta and the gun shops were all very large and in rpestigious locations, all of them down one long street. In addition to the old British businesses which had, by then, been acquired by Indian companies, there were Indian dealers like G M Biswas and Co, Ashootoosh and Co and some more - age messes your memory up. The state of Manton in the little hovel is particularly sad and emblematic of what happened to India's great hunting and shooting traditions. Sad, but this is exactly what happens when countries let socialists take over. Now let me go before I turn this into a political argument!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
Re: Manton &Co Double RIfle. [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #145195 - 05/11/09 11:52 AM

Andrew, that's a very nice rifle! I love wide full length file cut ribs. Aside from appearance, my eye seems to find the sights more quickly akin to mounting a shotgun.

Mark, thanks once again for the information on proofs. I just realized a new bit of info on a gun I've had for years!

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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