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Westley375
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Reged: 18/04/06
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Loc: Montana USA
Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t
      #144551 - 27/10/09 02:21 PM

Just got back from a Dangerous Game Safari in Zimbabwe with Chifuti Safari. Had a great time. But I can't for the life of me see why anyone would shoot a Buff with anything other than classic Double rifle. Barring some eye issues....shooting a Buffalo at 75 plus yard with a scoped rifle is not in the remotely close to being challenging. Might as well shoot a cow in some Farmers field. Even a 16 year old girl shot a 40" Buffalo with a scoped 375 !! I was within 75 yards of Buffalo nearly every day and took one at 50 yrds with a 470NE DR. (deleted)

Edited by NitroX (29/10/09 02:35 AM)


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tophet1
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Westley375]
      #144556 - 27/10/09 03:08 PM

I've heard the expression 'shooting a milk cow in a kraal' used to describe shooting both African Buff and Asiatic Water Buffalo.

When I finally do get my first buff and a Lot more knowledge about them, it will be interesting to form an opinion as to what is myth and what is true.

PS That is why I had express sights fitted to my 9.3x62. To hunt Buff, up close and personal


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eagle27
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: tophet1]
      #144562 - 27/10/09 05:25 PM

Westley 375

I’m not quite sure what the problem is with shooting buffalo or any other dangerous game with something other than a double, with a scope, or at any reasonable range that the shot must be taken at the time. After all the “real men” you speak of, and I assume you are referring to Bell, Taylor, Hunter etc, all took dangerous game with doubles, magazines and single shot firearms, using scopes on some of them, and at the various ranges that they found the game at. They all spoke of close encounters and charges not being the norm for their hunting but of course considering the huge numbers of game of all sorts that they shot, it was inevitable that they did face some dangerous situations and charges.

Now days of course you don’t usually get the opportunity to shoot in amongst the herds where you are more likely to have a dangerous encounter, or face wounded animals that will charge. In fact PHs probably discourage this as they don’t want animals wounded unnecessarily due to cost and possible danger to themselves and their clients.

While I have not hunted Africa, I have hunted buffalo in Australia before the “trophy” times and was able to get amongst the herds and in close to plenty of beasts. Some I took at 10 feet or so and some at 50 odd yards with an open sighted Mauser 404. A mixture of bulls and cows were taken over a weeks hunting and all meat was recovered for pet meat. Wild buffalo herds with cows and calves can be as dangerous to be amongst as any animal. The big old Aussie buffalo bulls also show an arrogant and aggressive attitude too, much like I understand the African buffalo do. So no flies on my neighbour’s dangerous game and the country up there is as tough or even tougher than Africa in parts.

I think the most important part of any hunting is enjoying the stalk and taking an animal cleanly under whatever conditions you find yourself in.

My humble thoughts anyway


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gryphon
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: eagle27]
      #144567 - 27/10/09 06:12 PM

Come on guys drop the machco crap and do it like real men did and still do.

Well did you yourself consider doing it alone to make it all more kosher IE without a back up?

Or is it a "must" by law to have a guide as back up?

Here`s an idea,take a Ruger num 1 in a suitable calibre and a few extra crackers in your fore end hand,now that will be even better!

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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500Nitro
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: gryphon]
      #144568 - 27/10/09 06:22 PM


Having done both (Open sighted Double, Open sighted Bolt Action and Scoped Rifle), it is definately easier with a scoped rifle, no too ways about it.

Except when you are in the middle of a herd of cows and calves
and I will agree with the above comment that they can be really dangerous, if not more so than other buff. But as he also says, Big, trophy buffalo have an attitude all to themselves sometimes.

Getting up close to Aust Bulls can be a problem on flood plains.

Anyway, each to their own.


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ozhunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: 500Nitro]
      #144569 - 27/10/09 07:13 PM

Chris,
Noticed your a Trout guy, Do you fish with a modern rod such as a SAGE or do you use an old cane rod? If both, do you not find it enjoyable with ether rod?
Ive enjoyed hunting a few Cape Buffalo with both scoped and non scoped rifles. However, even within eighty meters a scope minimizes f%&^$ ups such as wounding which is quite easy when hunting the thick stuff.
Your point about "Mucho crap" has me a little puzzled though???
In saying that, I still do agree with you that hunting with open sights is a treat.


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Paul
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: eagle27]
      #144571 - 27/10/09 07:57 PM

Quote:

After all the “real men” you speak of, and I assume you are referring to Bell, Taylor, Hunter etc,




This talk of real men makes me think of that song by Elvis Costello. Someone told me Taylor may have used a cricket bat, too, playing for some obscure team like Athens.


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Kalunga
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Paul]
      #144589 - 28/10/09 02:33 AM

Don`t forget to let the animal decide, how he`s gonna die !

Kalunga


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peter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Kalunga]
      #144593 - 28/10/09 03:54 AM

kalunga

you crack me up, thanks i needed that

best

peter


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Ripp
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ozhunter]
      #144595 - 28/10/09 04:10 AM

Quote:

Your point about "Mucho crap" has me a little puzzled though???
[quote)

Not me--another legend has been created... fortunately, he is the only one that knows it..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (28/10/09 02:33 PM)

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VonGruff
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Westley375]
      #144597 - 28/10/09 04:47 AM

Quote:

and took one at 50 yrds with a 470NE DR. Come on guys drop the machco crap and do it like real men did and still do.




(deleted) For some the cost of a classic double would mean no hunt, and for others eye problems preclude open sight use. In my book your opinion has no value.

Von Gruff.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by NitroX (29/10/09 02:36 AM)


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DoubleD
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: VonGruff]
      #144603 - 28/10/09 06:56 AM

Glad to see this thread.

Since my retirement pension will not allow me to travel and hunt Cape buffalo, so when I win the lottery, I am going to go to Africa and really prove my real man manliness....and no double barrelled assualt rifle either....one animal, one shot from My 577 2 3/4 NE Greener Martini one shotter!! I'll even go so far as to take only one round!!!

Sarcasism fully intended!

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Westley375
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: VonGruff]
      #144604 - 28/10/09 07:03 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

Edited by Westley375 (28/10/09 07:11 AM)


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Westley375
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Westley375]
      #144605 - 28/10/09 07:05 AM

P.S Iam not saying you must use a Double Rifle but at least take the glass off your Bolt Action Rifle and make it a true challenge

Edited by Westley375 (28/10/09 07:10 AM)


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poprivit
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: VonGruff]
      #144606 - 28/10/09 07:12 AM

1. I've got bad eyes, can't shoot open sights past 20 yards. Leupold cures that.
2. I've taken 3 buf; first one quit movin' at 3-4 yards. No, didn't need a scope, but he was in the jess and my Leupold set on 1.5 made him visible.

3. "Real men", eh? Where's your bloody spear. Or, how 'bout an Assegai?

4. Last I looked, I could hunt buf a lot cheaper than buying a double.
5. And, yeah, I hunt with a Ruger #1 in .458 Lott. (photo on demand.)
6. You really want to dance - let's go get an elephant up close and personal. I shot mine at under 30 yards, and yes, he was giving me the evil eye when I did.

I agree with VonGruff, only I'd say "egotistical". But I wouldn't call you a prick - no, I wouldn't. I might say "expletive deleted" because I'm not a real "Macho" man.

(deleted)

Edited by NitroX (29/10/09 02:45 AM)


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: poprivit]
      #144609 - 28/10/09 08:35 AM

Westley375, what's your problem ? Mike

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500Nitro
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #144610 - 28/10/09 08:44 AM

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Huvius
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: 500Nitro]
      #144611 - 28/10/09 09:18 AM

Man!
With this thread going and the OSR thread going, seems the elk aren't the only animals in rut!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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PBR
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: VonGruff]
      #144612 - 28/10/09 09:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

and took one at 50 yrds with a 470NE DR. Come on guys drop the machco crap and do it like real men did and still do.




(deleted) For some the cost of a classic double would mean no hunt, and for others eye problems preclude open sight use. In my book your opinion has no value.

Von Gruff.




And the second ignorant comment just confirmed it.

(deleted)

Edited by NitroX (29/10/09 02:44 AM)


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gatsby
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Huvius]
      #144614 - 28/10/09 10:10 AM

Quote:

Man!
With this thread going and the OSR thread going, seems the elk aren't the only animals in rut!






--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Ripp
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Huvius]
      #144624 - 28/10/09 02:30 PM

Quote:

Man!
With this thread going and the OSR thread going, seems the elk aren't the only animals in rut!






Ya think???
What the hell?? Is it full moon or what??

500Nitro

Don't blame this on Montana..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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500Nitro
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Ripp]
      #144627 - 28/10/09 03:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Man!
With this thread going and the OSR thread going, seems the elk aren't the only animals in rut!






Ya think???
What the hell?? Is it full moon or what??

500Nitro

Don't blame this on Montana..

Ripp





Sorry Ripp, just happened to see where he was from when reading his BS and thought it was appropriate - for him only !!!


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eagle27
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: 500Nitro]
      #144632 - 28/10/09 05:14 PM

Come on Westley you took one at 50 yards with your 470NE double and suddenly you are the man and anyone using a scope or anything other than a double is not a hunter.

A 50 yard range shot with a large double is certainly cutting down the odds. As mentioned earlier I shot buffs at 10 feet with a bolt action, only three all up in the Mauser, and I'm left handed and wear glasses. Our "guide" at the time, a pet meat shooter carried a 338 Win Mag (only head shot animals from his vehicle when going about his normal business) and he wouldn't go into the scrub after buff as my companion and I did on our own.

I don't consider myself any better than anyone else, just shot straight and had great faith in the time tested 404J.


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: eagle27]
      #144638 - 28/10/09 08:53 PM

Zim has high buffalo densities and some thick bush. I wonder if W375 would feel the same hunting in more open country and not following herd but seeking out more solitary bulls or small groups. If I've misjudged the machismo crap thing and all W375 is saying is that sniping buffalo from afar is not as sporting as working in very close, I agree! The thrill of buffalo and DG is lessened dramatically by distance.

Edited by JabaliHunter (28/10/09 11:32 PM)


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Westley375
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #144644 - 28/10/09 11:00 PM

Post deleted by NitroX

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Westley375]
      #144647 - 29/10/09 12:16 AM

Buffalo of any sort aren't dangerous until they kill you ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ripp
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: Westley375]
      #144651 - 29/10/09 12:47 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Westley375
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: Ripp]
      #144658 - 29/10/09 02:10 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

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Ripp
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: Westley375]
      #144659 - 29/10/09 02:16 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Westley375
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: Ripp]
      #144663 - 29/10/09 02:31 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

Edited by Westley375 (29/10/09 02:32 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Westley375]
      #144665 - 29/10/09 02:40 AM

Quote:

But I can't for the life of me see why anyone would shoot a Buff with anything other than classic Double rifle.




A scoped rifle assists shooting a cape buff within a herd.

One reason for you.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Westley375]
      #144666 - 29/10/09 02:40 AM

But Westley, you did what you quote above in your first post !! You remind me of the old "year end employee evaluation report" I read from a bank supervisor..."This man is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot"....."a man starts on the road to wisdom when he realises he knows nothing"...Socrates....be a little humble, it never hurt anyone, best, Mike

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Westley375
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #144667 - 29/10/09 02:56 AM

Humble it is sir , advice well taken. My apologies to most of those I have offended. People CAN have different opinions without being Crucified....or did somebody try that 2000 yrs ago?

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Westley375
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: NitroX]
      #144668 - 29/10/09 03:03 AM

John (NitroX)- Thanks for letting the air out of this one....At least your deletions are unbias and fair. And yes your reason for a scope in a herd is a good one. The kind of repsonse I was initially looking for. Regards To All

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Westley375]
      #144670 - 29/10/09 03:11 AM

An issue I find interesting is long range shooting of buffalo.

Not saying people should or should not do it.

But in my personal opinion in takes the "fun" out of hunting dangerous game, as the trophy on the wall is not my main objective. Its more fun I think to get closer.

And with dangerous game making the shot count is also more important that say with plains game which is unlikely to stomp on some other person.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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crkennedy1
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: NitroX]
      #144675 - 29/10/09 04:16 AM

I just finished reading all of the comments from the beginning (including the ones that were deleted). I must say that this has been a heated conversation. I do enjoy up-close and person in my hunting and thus a do quite a bit of bow hunting. On the other hand, I also have much respect for those that can cleanly harvest their game at a distance. I think that the key for all in the hunting relm is tolerance for one another and solidarity amongst the ranks. Westley375, if you get a minute, go back and look at my post from my own hunt to Africa about three weeks ago (also found under 'Hunting in Africa and hunting dangerous game') Even though all of the pictures that you look are are plains game, every animal was taken at 200 or more yards. Why? Because that was all the closer I could get! I'm not ashamed to tell you that I shot six trophies, and I shot exactly six bullets - all clean, one shot kills. I don't tell you this to brag but to merey comment that I am happy for you and your African adventure - can't you do the same for others?

--------------------
DOUBLE or NOTHING


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: crkennedy1]
      #144678 - 29/10/09 04:37 AM

Westley, perhaps I was a bit harsh, the problem with internet forums is that we type things we would always "talk about amongst us over a table and a beer" in a different manner, best, Mike

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ozhunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #144711 - 29/10/09 05:13 PM

During the first few days of my last Safari in northern Mozambique I was lucky enough to have an opportunity to get within thirty meters of small groups of Cape buffalo bulls every day. this in its self was a mission as it was late June and the Jesse bush had just dropped the bulk of their leaves, thus creating a 6" bed of crunchy leaf litter in the places most likely to find the owners of the Spoor we where following.
Although we had great time this close to groups of undisturbed bulls, we where unlucky that they where always younger bulls and certainly not what I was after.
On the evening of about the seventh day we where driving along an open plain where Stuart the PH stopped as he thought he could see Buffalo. Being just short of last light we hastily kitted up, checked the wind and cover for the approach and moved as fast as possible over around one kilometre of elephant rutted ground. During the approach we had to manuver between a couple herds of Impala and Waterbuck. We were trying to get into a position that would have the herd pass us on their way down to the Lugenda for water.
Unfortunately with the help of one noisy Impala, a cow buff detected our movement within the clump of thornbush we where using as cover but wasn't to sure what we where . As they milled around feeding and looking for danger (Their life's work) we Glassed them over and hoped they would still move before the fast coming darkness. When all eyes where not looking in our direction we would close the distance by a few meters with the help of smaller and smaller bushes.
The herd consisted of around one hundred animals and although we didn't really expect a mature trophy bull to be there, all of a sudden an old gray sod stepped out from amongst the crowd and tried to mount a nervous cow. Well this bull was old, fourteen years old in fact. This guy must have be suffering Alzheimer's and obviously didn't no this was the job for younger guys.
Any way, with a soft ready, Illuminated scope on and sticks in place, I touched of a shot that would have been around the one hundred meter mark. We heard the hard thump of a solid hit followed by him stumbling. As the herd took off, we took off in pursuit also, when they stopped, we stopped also. Another shot and we did the same procedure but after this we where forced to stop as a cow looked as though she wanted retribution for being disturbed.
With the help of the two 300grn Swifts in the chest, the old grey guy was easily seen not looking so healthy. one more bullet through the lungs, this time a 286grn Woodleigh solid and we moved in as the herd moved out. As we moved in the Bull was still standing up, holding on. Another solid in the High shoulder dropped him and one more between the shoulder blades finished this enjoyable hunt.


My next Bull was taken a few weeks later when most of the fallen leaves had broken down and weren't as noisy but the August winds became more unpredictable.
This lone daggerboy was tracked up at one o'clock in the afternoon feeding in the long grass and Bamboo. We bumped into him at around thirty yards as he fed along, a solid from the 9.3 sent him running and after a couple minutes we moved along the Vegetation choked gully he moments before ran into. A little way in and he was spotted looking our direction, a 9.3 solid was sent in poll axing him. I climbed a tree to see his shape in the grass and after a couple more minutes we slowly moved in.

Between these two different hunts, I couldn't tell you which I enjoyed most. Yes I could have used open sights for the second Buffalo, but It has been my experience that with these Wiley Moz Buff often found amongst the Miombo, Jesse and Bamboo that shots can be very difficult. As a great example of tricky shots check out www.kambakosafaris.com promo video.
Also, for those that think that Buffalo are similar to domestic cows are sadly full of s%$t. This animal is almost always being harassed by lion and they don't live long if they aren't switched on and are one of the most "switched on" animals that I have had the pleasure of hunting.


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eagle27
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #144712 - 29/10/09 05:19 PM

Thanks Nitrox
I think you have done us all a valuable service and brought us back down to earth again now our hackles have been lowered.
We all obviously share a common interest and some are more fortunate than others in having been amongst the big boys but of course that doesn't lessen the opinion and thoughts of those that haven't. While I have been lucky and probably stupid in my earlier years of hunting I envy those today like Westley who have got to Africa. Hopefully I will do that too some day soon.

Funny when I think back now and am ashamed to admit I can't even remember what ammo I used on the buffs I did shoot. I was young and not so into tallying up all the details back then. All I know is I know is that I used some Parker Hale factory 400gr FMJ some original Kynoch 400gr SP and some of my own reloads with the RWS 400gr FMJ. Only recall recovering one RWS solid from the rear hip ball joint of a big buff after it travelled full length from a high chest shot and lodged right in that large strong joint. All I know is that everything fell over when hit. Stupid me I could have got more out of it had I been more of an enquiring mind back then. Next time I will be more astute.

I too admit that if possible it is always more exciting taking a shot at any animal by getting in close and facing it. As a lefty using RH bolt rifles I am then in reality using a single shot so face an even greater challenge of making the first one count. I do sometimes wonder what the challenge is when viewing some of the videos online of hunters taking an elephant side on with a scoped rifle over sticks when they could have stalked a lot closer and taken the standing shot. So I do concur with Westley on this but only from my own feelings of not the shot for me. How others go about their hunting is their choice and I only wish them good hunting.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: eagle27]
      #144715 - 29/10/09 06:30 PM

I have only shot one cape buffalo and it was before I owned a suitable double rifle. I used my Whitworth Mauser 98 scoped .375. Range was around 60 metres and it was standing in an open vlei from the donga/creek bed we had used to get closer.

The next time I hunted cape buffalo was during a cow elephant hunt but cape buffalo were a secondary objective. We came across a herd near the Matsuadona Park boundary (Omay) and shadowed the herd and looked it over six times. Sometimes within 50 yards distance of us hidden in the jesse. I swapped my Jeffery DR in .450 No. 2 for the guides scoped .416 as it was going to be difficult to get a clear shot at a bull in the milling herd. In the end the PH informed me even though some of the bulls have long horns none fitted my requirement of fully mature hard bosses so we left go in piece. While I had the bolt .416 the PH had my .450 and was watching five elephant bulls bums which constantly were sometimes within 20 yards of us the whole time, also inadvertently shadowing the buff herds direction as well.

Use the appropriate tool for the job given the circumstances at the time.

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Ripp
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ozhunter]
      #144732 - 30/10/09 12:55 AM

Quote:


Also, for those that think that Buffalo are similar to domestic cows are sadly full of s%$t. This animal is almost always being harassed by lion and they don't live long if they aren't switched on and are one of the most "switched on" animals that I have had the pleasure of hunting.





Agree 100% with everything you said--anyone making a statement like that has apparently not hunted them where I have..or anyone else I know...

Ripp

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ChinaFleetSailor
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Ripp]
      #144974 - 02/11/09 09:43 AM

After seeing all the deleted posts, I don't want to add more heat than light to the issue.

But as to why I would want to hunt buffalo with anything other than a iron sighted double rifle, I'd like to point out one benefit of hunting with a bolt action rifle for most people.

It's what they're used to. I know it's what I'm most familiar with when it comes to hunting and shooting.

PHs such as Buzz Charlton and Myles McCallum, with whom I hunted elephant earlier in the year, say that the vast majority of hunters using a double aren't very good with them. Under pressure, pulling the first trigger twice is a problem for the majority.

So much for the advantage of two fast aimed shots.

I'm willing to concede a double rifle is theoretically faster for the second shot than a bolt rifle. But as a practical matter, if you've built up a lifetime of muscle memory hunting with bolt action rifles, you're more likely to get the second shot off faster if you're using the rifle you've shot most.

The fact of the matter is, most hunters do most of their hunting with bolt action rifles. Or if not bolt action rifles, something other then double rifles. This is generally a matter of cost. How many of us could afford a battery of light, medium, and heavy double rifles? But it seems to me that for most of the hunting I do in North America the bolt rifle is more appropriate. How many really accurate 7mm doubles are there, capable of a long shot on a pronghorn? Or light enough to haul into the mountains?

So I practice with my bolt action rifles a lot. So why would I want to switch to a double for dangerous game, and not use a rifle I can operate without thinking about it?

I'm not immune to the attraction of a double rifle. But the best advice I've gotten about learning a double is to get a shotgun that's configured exactly the same and shoot it a lot. That's the way to unlearn old habits and develop new ones.

I'm not much of a shotgunner, thought. Besides, I'm in my late forties. Right now my eyes are fine. My .375 and .416 wear iron sights. (I have scopes for them, but I usually don't have them mounted on the rifles. The cheek weld is different, so I do the opposite of most and only mount the scope if I need it for a longer shot. I figure any shot I need with the irons I'm going to need fast, so that's how I practice.) But I'm at the age where they can go fast. It seems to me that by the time I develop new muscle memory, I may need that scope. As a matter of fact, I read a sad story recently in African Hunter magazine of a man about my age who had to sell his double for that reason. He couldn't stand the thought of scoping his beautiful double. So he sold it on the installment plan to an up and coming PH. Now he does all his DG hunting with his scoped bolt rifles.

I'm willing to concede all the advantages double rifle enthusiasts claim for their rifles. But only on a theoretical basis. Not if the guy behind the rifle has just recently switched from the type of rifle he's shot his whole life because he wanted a double rifle for dangerous game. It's entirely likely that he's put himself at a disadvantage instead.

Invest in ammo, not rifles. Get good with something, then stick with it.

That's just my opinion.


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gryphon
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ChinaFleetSailor]
      #144980 - 02/11/09 11:42 AM

And a good opinion at that!

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ChinaFleetSailor]
      #144987 - 02/11/09 01:06 PM

Quote:

After seeing all the deleted posts, I don't want to add more heat than light to the issue.




Nothing adding to the debate was edited.

Quote:

I'm willing to concede all the advantages double rifle enthusiasts claim for their rifles. But only on a theoretical basis. Not if the guy behind the rifle has just recently switched from the type of rifle he's shot his whole life because he wanted a double rifle for dangerous game. It's entirely likely that he's put himself at a disadvantage instead.

Invest in ammo, not rifles. Get good with something, then stick with it.




Very true. Investing in a double, shooting it a few shots, using it on a buff hunt, then selling it immediately afterwards, ... this does happen ... your opinion would be quite apt in these circumstances especially.

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John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ripp
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: NitroX]
      #145005 - 02/11/09 03:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Very true. Investing in a double, shooting it a few shots, using it on a buff hunt, then selling it immediately afterwards, ... this does happen ... your opinion would be quite apt in these circumstances especially.




Heck--you see enough guys go on hunts that do the same with bolts --let alone doubles...some show up with the guns bore-sighted at the shop they bought them...hard to imagine--but true story...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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tophet1
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Ripp]
      #145008 - 02/11/09 06:38 PM

Well to me it's an industry that supplies a product to paying consumers (us). The product and experience will differ in relation to the amount invested.

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ajsaxin
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: tophet1]
      #146336 - 21/11/09 12:28 PM

I must say though I do not have any experince hunting cape bufflaos but I would agree with-Westley375 .What is the point of using a scope staying half a mile away and shooting it,u might as well have a UAV blowing he animal up from above.If you do not have the skill to shoot the animal with out a scope then dont hunt.If you are hunting for a living(bell) or for food I would understand ppl using a scope,as you would want to be 100% sure.But stuff like I do not want to inflict much pain ont the animal and similar stories really hold no water.Unless you are among the dozens who visit africa only because you want to fill your walls up with heads and a story(half filled with crap )to tell your buddies.Maybe a leopard makes sense with a scope as getting really close to them is almost impossible.
When you hunt give your trophy animal an equal chance to know you there and escape or come for you.Dont hide behind your PHs shoulders from 200 yards waiting to fire off.But I must admit it does require a lota balls going upclose to a bufflo when you know you are a uselss shot with out a scope and its equally stupid .But the bottom line is , you hunt if you have the skills to give a good fight to the animal if not the bull does not deserve to die at your hands.I seen pics all over the internet of hunters who fit the typical wall street banker types with such beautiful trophies at which they would have had no chance if it wasnt for the money,the scope and the best PH. I am not trying to be rude or flame any one on their opinion just my idea on what a hunt should be.If this does not comply with you then good for you.

Good day


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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ajsaxin]
      #146366 - 22/11/09 12:54 PM

ajsaxin - I must take offense to the following part of your post: "What is the point of using a scope staying half a mile away and shooting it,u might as well have a UAV blowing he animal up from above.If you do not have the skill to shoot the animal with out a scope then dont hunt."

I use a scope, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I've yet to run into anyone out in the bush shooting at animals "half a mile away".

I believe, we as hunters and stewards of wildlife, have a moral and ethical obligation to take an animal's life as cleanly, quickly, and humanely as possible. Anyone who says they can place a shot as accurately from 100 meters away with iron sights as they can with a scoped firearm is probably in politics, and doesn't know what the truth is. Also, my 60+ year old eyes no longer can adjust to using iron sights, so I guess you believe that we seniors shouldn't be hunting any longer. Last year I shot a wonderful old Cape Buffalo from +- 160 yards after a 4 hour stalk on hands and knees, and belly crawling, because there was absolutely no more cover to use in the Chobe River flood plain where we were hunting in Namibia's Caprivi Strip. One shot from my scoped 416 Rigby killed the buffalo immediately. He didn't take 5 steps.


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gryphon
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #146368 - 22/11/09 01:38 PM

Quote:

mile away".

Last year I shot a wonderful old Cape Buffalo from +- 160 yards after a 4 hour stalk on hands and knees, and belly crawling, because there was absolutely no more cover to use in the Chobe River flood plain where we were hunting in Namibia's Caprivi Strip. One shot from my scoped 416 Rigby killed the buffalo immediately. He didn't take 5 steps.




I like that above and well said and there is none of the almost obligatory add on that "it was charging and fell at my feet"

--------------------
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ajsaxin
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #146381 - 22/11/09 06:50 PM

Quote:

ajsaxin - I must take offense to the following part of your post: "What is the point of using a scope staying half a mile away and shooting it,u might as well have a UAV blowing he animal up from above.If you do not have the skill to shoot the animal with out a scope then dont hunt."

There are exceptions Sir ,I guess I should have specified instead of generalising.Yes due to age you might require the aid of a scope how ever would you say every one who hunt with a scope are doing so only because of age or poor eye sight?

The fact remains hunting is a sport despite what ever spiritual tone we give it so lets give our opponent an equal chance to get the better of us.And come on how many of these trophy bulls die of old age,thye are either killed my some predator when they are left out of the herd or end up being beaten and bruised by some younger bull and then again killed by a pack of hyenas,do you really think a bullet would be more pain full than that?If it is tough to stalk and you are not able to tak a proepr shot then stalk it till you can,if it looks like the bull is gettig the better of you and just might escape well he was smart enough for that and this time he got the better of you.
My gripe is not against those who hunt with a scope for medical or age reasons but those who use it because thye shoot better with it.

How do you think the buffalos were hunted befoe scoped rifles were available?

Again if i did miss out any genuine exceptions I apologise,end of the day no one has to justify it to any one but your self.

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grandveneur
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ajsaxin]
      #146385 - 22/11/09 09:37 PM

We are sportsman, that's right, but we have to kill a animal quickly and properly, and by the way, the shot placement is very important ! With a scope the accuracy is, in all cases, better and when something go wrong you can shoot at longer range ! No experiment, the first choice for hunting big game is, despite the caliber or the eyes of the shooter, a scoped rifle ! Unscoped rifles and DR's are in my opinion not the best choice today !

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ajsaxin]
      #146390 - 22/11/09 11:49 PM

Quote:

How do you think the buffalos were hunted befoe scoped rifles were available?



Charging up on horseback, shooting and then running away!


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grandveneur
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #146402 - 23/11/09 02:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

How do you think the buffalos were hunted befoe scoped rifles were available?



Charging up on horseback, shooting and then running away!




Yes, indeed ! Or before, 20 hunters with bow's and a lot of arrow's, or javelin's : : 1 buffalos, 4/5 hunters killed and a lot of wounded heroes ! I prefere a scoped rifle !


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Matt_Graham
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: grandveneur]
      #146444 - 23/11/09 11:27 AM

Some of you guys are funny - trying to 'make it a challenge'... no need to do it with a bow...that's too easy!! Try doing it blindfolded, just relying on your other senses... now there's a real man's challenge.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #146460 - 23/11/09 02:12 PM

On my next buffalo hunt I'm going in armed with just a pellet gun and a pocket knife. The pellet gun's just to get his attention and piss him off.

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500Boswell
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: Westley375]
      #146473 - 23/11/09 05:01 PM

A 375 H and H is better ,because you get better value for money for your hunt, you can shoot the buffalo 5 or 6 times before it falls over, unlike a 500 which might only take one shot and its dead and feels like a instant anti climax ,plus the PH can join in the fun like a Mark Sullivan video where they are both blazing away at a buffalo running which has no apparent effect on it with the legendary 375 H and H , you also get an exciting follow up on a wounded animal .It doessnt kick much ,easy to get ammo for ,and more fun ,if i can just find a Colt Sauer with two magazines then i will sell my 500

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Ripp
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #146504 - 24/11/09 01:52 AM

Quote:

On my next buffalo hunt I'm going in armed with just a pellet gun and a pocket knife. The pellet gun's just to get his attention and piss him off.




If you really want to piss him off, shoot him in the sack..and wait for the charge...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Ripp]
      #146534 - 24/11/09 07:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

On my next buffalo hunt I'm going in armed with just a pellet gun and a pocket knife. The pellet gun's just to get his attention and piss him off.




If you really want to piss him off, shoot him in the sack..and wait for the charge...

Ripp




If I had a shot at the sack, he'd be facing the wrong way for a charge. Unless of course he was REALLY hung.


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ajsaxin
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #146614 - 25/11/09 04:25 AM

Well trust me the buffalo wouldnt be bothered if most of you "scoped" hunters are gonna shoot with no scopes ,I am sure you would be lucky if you did not hit your PH instead of the buffalos sac ,with out a scope

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Shackleton
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ajsaxin]
      #146774 - 27/11/09 04:04 AM

Complaining about a scope in Africa is like complaining about using an AR15(in suitable caliber) or AR10 for deer-"Why hunt deer with a machine gun?"-It's not a machine gun, it's a simple semiauto, and "hunting capacity" 5 round magazines are available for both. If I ever get to hunt elk, I'll be using my M1-sure, it was originally designed for shooting Germans, but it's just a semiauto .30-06, a round that has probably killed several of everything on the planet.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Shackleton]
      #146786 - 27/11/09 06:50 AM

"it was originally designed for shooting Germans" ...not a hunting rifle then ? have some sense please !, best, Mike

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Shackleton
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #146800 - 27/11/09 01:22 PM

The point was it's the same caliber as one of the most popular bolt action deer rifles in the world. A war was on when the rifle was designed but that doesn't mean with suitable projectiles(expanding bullets and not full metal jacket) it can serve another purpose, and with a 5 round clip(yes, the M1 uses a clip) it can legally and ethically serve another purpose.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: 500Boswell]
      #146819 - 27/11/09 09:26 PM

Quote:

A 375 H and H is better ,because you get better value for money for your hunt, you can shoot the buffalo 5 or 6 times before it falls over



I think in this case the shooter might get better 'value' from a rifle range !


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Paul
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Shackleton]
      #146823 - 28/11/09 12:39 AM

Quote:

The point was it's the same caliber as one of the most popular bolt action deer rifles in the world. A war was on when the rifle was designed but that doesn't mean with suitable projectiles(expanding bullets and not full metal jacket) it can serve another purpose, and with a 5 round clip(yes, the M1 uses a clip) it can legally and ethically serve another purpose.




There's always a war on somewhere but I think the Garand was designed before WWII, possibly with no particular enemy identified - the USA tended to isolationism in those days.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Paul]
      #146849 - 28/11/09 08:21 AM

Exactly Paul, I believe the Garand was first sactioned as THE battle rifle of the USA in 1932, 9 years before the US entered the second WW. so the M1 while being designed as a military weapon was just that, why take it to hunt game ? though I am sure it will do the job.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: Westley375]
      #147985 - 15/12/09 06:29 AM

Ruger #1, 458 Lott, should be fun enough. As a client you will never need to deal with a charge, as the PH will ALWAYS back you up. A bummer but the truth.

I will say, that if and when I go to Africa, I will insist on being at least within 50 yards of the buff before I take a shot. I will also only use a single or double with open sights. Otherwise, IMHO, its just shooting cows in a pen....that you had to hike 5 miles to get to.

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #147991 - 15/12/09 07:24 AM

5 miles ????? Try again, best,Mike

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ozhunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #148050 - 15/12/09 08:55 PM

Quote:



As a client you will never need to deal with a charge, as the PH will ALWAYS back you up. A bummer but the truth.

I will say, that if and when I go to Africa,

Otherwise, IMHO, its just shooting cows in a pen....that you had to hike 5 miles to get to.




Oh yes???? You sure about that???
The second statement typically goes with the other two.
Sorry.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Ripp]
      #148052 - 15/12/09 11:37 PM

Quote:

If you really want to piss him off, shoot him in the sack..and wait for the charge...




An idiot friend did that once to a donkey, with a .22/250, but was aiming for its chest. (we or he was young and stupid)

However the donkey did not charge ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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MattieA
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Kalunga]
      #149385 - 03/01/10 05:53 PM

"Dont' forget to let the animal decide how he's gonna die."
Funniest thing I've read on Nitroexpress!! I take it you're paraphrasing MS?


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