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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Building a DR in .460 S & W ???
      #144548 - 27/10/09 01:11 PM

I have recently been bitten by the DR bug BAD!!! I have Brown's book on order and can't wait to start. I realize the book will clear up some questions I have, but I'm too impatient for some of those questions. I was thinking originally about building a .30-30 DR. I got to looking in the new Hornady book and was looking at the .460 Smith round. I thought this would make a very cool gun for whitetail in the river bottoms. Any thoughts from anyone? If this works out, my second rifle will be a big thumper of some kind. Thanks for any help. I am BRAND NEW to this.

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REN3
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Metalguy]
      #144700 - 29/10/09 01:16 PM

You will be much better served by buying a manufacturer's double rifle, either new or used. There are many price points and calibers avaiable, especially for stateside game.

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Metalguy
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: REN3]
      #144705 - 29/10/09 03:11 PM

I will never in my life be able to afford a "real" double. I would die and go to heaven if I could go hunting with an actual Rigby, but that will probably never happen. This is just something I had in mind as a project. I love to tinker with stuff. I am fully aware of the risks of building this type of weapon. That is why I will fully do all of my homework before I act on it.

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Metalguy]
      #144725 - 29/10/09 11:04 PM



Metalguy, I saw a really nice little DR chambered for the .30-30 at the Vintage Cup this year. What a cool little rifle. I'm not sure what your budget is, but I know of a German Drilling chanbered for the .30-30.

The .460 S&W might be an interesting venture. Follow your instincts.

--------------------

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Metalguy
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #144728 - 30/10/09 12:22 AM

Thanks for your input. I have since done some more research and decided that a 460 would blow the gun apart. I believe it has a pressure listed at 64,000 psi! I am now looking at either a .444, .375jdj, or a .38-55. I never thought it would be this tough to decide on a cartridge. I am looking basically to shoot a 200 or so grain bullet about 2500 fps tops.

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peter
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Metalguy]
      #144734 - 30/10/09 01:12 AM

i might get hung for this, but have you considered a 45-70 (sorry guys ) nice low pressure etc

peter

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Metalguy
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: peter]
      #144738 - 30/10/09 01:28 AM

I have considered this. It's a good round with nice low pressure. However, I bought one of those Gibbs Summit carbines when they came out. So, I really don't need another one. I have that disease that makes you want to buy a gun of every caliber.

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DarylS
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: peter]
      #144739 - 30/10/09 01:44 AM

The .444 Marlin or .38/55 would be a great choice,as would the .375, a necked down .444.

If building a .444, I suggest you get a faster twist in the 20" to 24" range. The typical rifle twist for the .44 is 38", which will not normally stabilize .430" bullets over 300gr.

If going .38/55, a .375 Winchester chambering might be better as it has stronger brass and components are quite readily aquired. .38/55 brass is typically .050" longer than .375 or .30/30 brass. I use blown out .30/30 brass in my Winchester .375.

I'm with Peter on ctg. choice - as to a .45/70, although a .444 with 20" twist for 350gr. to 400gr. bullets has a great deal of attraction for me. It should do about 1,700fps with a 400gr. at under 40,000PSI, maybe 1,850fps with a 350.

You would be hard pressed to get a 200gr. bullet at 2,400fps from the .38/55 (or .375Win.) case at safe pressures for the double, I think - about 2,300fps is about tops andthat would be over 50,000PSI. Lee's handloading book has data for AA1680 pushing 220gr. to 2,400fps from 24" bls.(not specified). I tired them in my .375Winch., which normally operates around 55,000PSI & felt they were way too hot. With this small capacity case, it takes a lot of increased pressure to get just a few more fps. More capacity would be better in that calibre.

A .375JDJ (necked .444) chambering on 24" tubes might deliver 2,250fps with a 270gr., and the new .375", 225gr. Spire point by Hornady, a very heavily jacketed bullet should get around 2,550fps at reasonable pressures for the double - say, 45,000PSI. These ballistics are capable in a 9.3x57 in a m46 Husky, which operates in that pressure range with just a tich less capacity than the .375JDJ.
This bullet worked splendidly in 9.3x57's bullet testing on jugs and boards as well as Steer heads. It produced equally good results on 2 deer for him, with almost full length penetration and excellent expansion. A good choice for a fun gun, in my opinon.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Metalguy
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: DarylS]
      #144743 - 30/10/09 01:59 AM

WOW! I really appreciate all that info. I kinda think I'm gonna shoot for the JDJ. I will have to base my final decision on what type os shotgun I am able to purchase. I am really hoping to find a european 12 ga. s x s of some sort. I know the final product might be a little heavy, but I just don't know if a 16 or 20 could take the pounding od the JDJ? Thoughts???

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bwananelson
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Metalguy]
      #144745 - 30/10/09 02:08 AM

a double can be had if you look and be patient a Baikal for under 1000.a valmet,i saw a 45 70 pedrasoli go for less than 2000.but if you have the tooling and knowledge and time the satisfaction of seeing your own talent is priceless it will cost more if you count your time but the pleasure is a memory,good luck keep us posted.build the gun for the game you intend to hunt

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
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Loc: Northern WY
Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: bwananelson]
      #144747 - 30/10/09 02:24 AM

I originally started out wanting the gun just for deer hunting in thick cover (you never know if they will go nuts and charge you). Kidding, I have always wanted a DR of some kind. I had my eyes on a Baikal when they came out, but that soon passed when I found out you couldn't get them. I really would like the satisfaction of building my own though. I know it'll take forever, but when I'm done I will have a very versatile rifle for within 100 yds for any critter that lives around here. That's why I think I'll shoot for the JDJ round.

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Metalguy]
      #144809 - 31/10/09 02:23 AM

I found an older AYA side by side that I think would make a good "builder". It has side clips, a greener crossbolt, and appears to be in good condition. Does anyone have any opinions on this gun with the .375 JDJ? Thanks

P.S. : I also found an old Bayard 12 ga. with all the features. Are they any good?

Edited by Metalguy (31/10/09 05:33 AM)

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Yukon577
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Reged: 11/03/08
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Metalguy]
      #145943 - 15/11/09 02:12 PM

Hi Metalguy,
I bought an AYA 12ga. the same as you describe and I sent pictures of it to W.Ellis Brown and talked to him about it's suitability of conversion to a double rifle. I was talking about making a .450 BPE or .500 BPE and he thought it would be more than adequate for that conversion. It might be a bit large converted to the rounds you are speaking of but it should easily handle them. You would have a nice DR in the end though.
Good luck and post pics of your work.
Yukon.

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Metalguy
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Yukon577]
      #145945 - 15/11/09 02:35 PM

I have since purchased an older Sauer & Sohn 12 gauge. I'm lost between chambering it for the jdj or the 405 winchester. I have also started another post on this subject. I would love your input. Good luck with your conversion.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Metalguy]
      #145988 - 16/11/09 05:17 AM

Metalguy,
Forget about the JDJ's and go with either a 45-70 or the .405 Winchester, you won't be sorry in either case. The .405 has a little more horsepower with 300's and is flatter shooting but it also costs more to shoot. Either of them would make you a very good deer gun for hunting in the brush and will handle anything you are likely to encounter. Bob H.

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Metalguy
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #145999 - 16/11/09 08:34 AM

Just out of curiousity, what does everyone have against the .375 jdj? I know it was technically started as a handgun round, but it's a rifle case. T/C & SSK industries chamber a lot of rounds that are rifle cartridges, does that make them "handgun" rounds? And in all actuality, when looking over my older copy of "Big Bore Cartridges", Ken Waters had a VERY VERY similar round built and called it the ".375 Express". The dimensions between the express and the jdj are so close, I would almost say that jones copied waters. But who am I? The jdj has the ballistics and bullet weights I am looking for. The pressure is low,(lower than a .405 @ 42,000), and .375 diameter bullets grow on trees even where I live, and barrels are WAY cheaper. This all being said, I'm still thinking about it. Thanks.

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bonanza
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Metalguy]
      #146006 - 16/11/09 09:15 AM

50/90

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: bonanza]
      #146009 - 16/11/09 09:25 AM

That would be cool. But I think it's a little too big for around here. I have to stick with all head shots!

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Metalguy]
      #146023 - 16/11/09 12:03 PM

Metalguy,

What you are doing would be something that the British did in the golden years of gunmaking. Christopher Austyn lists double rifles chambered for the then big handgun round, the 455 Webley, by Westley Richards and W W Greener. These were beautiful light and trim double rifles and if you find a suitable frame to build a 460 S&W double rifle on, it should be a fantastic tribute to these great old guns.

Advance good wishes and please don't forget to post pictures when you take this build up!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
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Loc: Northern WY
Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #146040 - 16/11/09 01:53 PM

I still think it would be cool to do a .460 Smith & Wesson, but @ 62 or 64,000 psi, I think the action would blow in proofing. I'll stick with the cartridges under 44,000 or so.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Metalguy]
      #146048 - 16/11/09 11:31 PM

FYI Metalguy, AYA will, on request, make a shotgun with and supply an additional pair of .444 marlin barrels, they are made and regulated by Dumoulin but price is prohibitive IMO BUT if you can sort the barrels yourself the action is OK with the Marlin .444. best, Mike

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #147014 - 01/12/09 02:45 PM

Quote:

Metalguy,
Forget about the JDJ's and go with either a 45-70 or the .405 Winchester, you won't be sorry in either case. The .405 has a little more horsepower with 300's and is flatter shooting but it also costs more to shoot. Either of them would make you a very good deer gun for hunting in the brush and will handle anything you are likely to encounter. Bob H.



I actually LOVE building 45-70's and 405Wins! They make the funnest guns to shoot, ton's of loads to play with and the regulation process doesn't beat me to death. They make great NA game guns, a bit heavy for the mountains, but what the heck.

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #147015 - 01/12/09 02:52 PM

I'm still in the thought process as far as calibers. I would like a 405, but I'm also debating on the 9.3 x 74r. I still would like to find some 375 caliber that was "common". I looked at the 375 x 2-1/2" NE, but the money I saved on barrel blanks would be spent buying brass for god's sake I can't win!! All of this aside though, I haven't even had time to fully inspect my donor gun yet.

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wesinok
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: Metalguy]
      #148575 - 22/12/09 11:14 AM

choices are so numerous that they can be tough to pick between. I might as well throw some fuel on the fire with another one. Take a look at the .358 JDJ. Pressures are reasonable and you can match .35 whelen velocities with any .35 caliber bullets.

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Tatume
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Re: Building a DR in .460 S & W ??? [Re: wesinok]
      #148576 - 22/12/09 11:41 AM

As long as you're looking at JDJ cartridges for deer, you should also consider the 309 JDJ (308/444). I have one in a 14-inch barrel, and it produces 2150 fps with 180 gr bullets at pressures that are loafing in the Contender. With Sierra 180 round-nosed bullets it makes a great woods cartridge for deer.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member

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