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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 500Nitro]
      #146906 - 29/11/09 09:22 AM

Quote:

As for "spitting of rifling out the muzzle, ribs falling off",
I have heard of ribs coming away or apart but never "spitting of rifling out the muzzle".

Where has that been written ?




Various places.

The bullet companies have told me of gibberish tossed at them on forums involving this sort of nonsense. Cal Pappas can elaborate, too, as he was told this by a supposed expert on the subject who promised to show pictures of it, pictures which never materialized.

I'm agreeing with you about the possible need for the very fine instruments to measure the shadow effect.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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500Nitro
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #146907 - 29/11/09 09:43 AM

Re the ""spitting of rifling out the muzzle""

How would rifling, which in itself is very shallow, separate
from the rest of the barrel ????

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

Sounds to be like someone spouting BS
and the fact "photos" never show up
probably prove it !!!

Edited by 500Nitro (29/11/09 09:44 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 500Nitro]
      #146914 - 29/11/09 12:08 PM

Quote:

Sounds to be like someone spouting BS and the fact "photos" never show up probably prove it !!!




You said it.

I agree, but..."no photos = BS" could be said about the whole OSR topic. I was flamed big-time for suggesting same early on in this discussion.

No photos or any other "proof" has as of yet been posted here pertaining to any aspect of OSR or double damage caused by monos for that matter. I accept the premise on the word of others but my and others' repeated pleas for some sort of documentation of damage {for the educational benefit of the Forum community} has of yet produced no responses.

This total lack of "proof" as some call it is what has motivated me to engage several companies and individuals in the hope that at some point the phenomenon will be reproduced in a lab so-to-speak so the exact causes can be isolated.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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doubleriflenut
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #146918 - 29/11/09 01:27 PM

I have used Woodleigh bullets in my double rifles for years and they have performed perfectly! I have no reason to experiment with bullets that may cause a problem in my rifles.

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Huvius
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 500Nitro]
      #146919 - 29/11/09 01:31 PM

Is OSR visible when the barrels are wiped clean of any oil or residual film?

So, just how much of an issue is this if you can barely see it, may not be able to measure it, and it has no effect on accuracy or regulation?
Sounds like a big to do about nothing.

Also, before sounding off about loose ribs and such, remember that loose ribs happen fairly frequently on SXS shotguns too and I hasten to think that the causes in shotguns are largely the same in rifles. Ribs have been loosening since ribs have existed.

Personally, if I had a set of barrels with OSR, I would see it as an opportunity to have the gun reregulated to a modern powder/bullet combination.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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500Nitro
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: doubleriflenut]
      #146922 - 29/11/09 01:55 PM

Quote:

I have used Woodleigh bullets in my double rifles for years and they have performed perfectly! I have no reason to experiment with bullets that may cause a problem in my rifles.





Ditto, once I get my guns shooting, I can't see any reason to change.

Playing around with every new bullet on the market
is just burning more powder for no reason IMHO.

Edited by 500Nitro (29/11/09 04:44 PM)


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Andy
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 500Nitro]
      #146930 - 29/11/09 04:41 PM

Based on the considerable experience of shooters on this thread, once you develop a well regulated load for your DR I would stick with it. Period.

If problems with regular use of monometals pop up Im sure we will hear about it!

It is hard enough comming up w a load that regulates w premium and practice ammo in a bolt gun that I cant imagine regulating twice w a DR!!!!!

Shoot what you like. Life is short.

Let us know how it feels when the elephant is 10 paces away!!!!

Andy


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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Andy]
      #146932 - 29/11/09 06:02 PM

Andy,

Welcome. I'm glad we were finally able to sort things out.


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BlainSmipy
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Ripp]
      #147029 - 02/12/09 02:03 AM

Well if Obama and his commi minions have their way the lead bullet will go the way of the Doo-Doo. Already happened in CA, I had to re-regulate one of my guns to Barnes because of this.

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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bwananelson
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #147102 - 03/12/09 12:38 PM

have you seen the test target with the 470 NE rigby IN THE ria auction nice group and old rifle and federal solids sweet

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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bwananelson
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: bwananelson]
      #147103 - 03/12/09 12:40 PM

http://www.rockislandauction.com/photos/48/p_standard/WEF301-Q-CU90-L.jpg

nice target

Trophy Bonded® Sledgehammer® Solid



Use it on the largest, most dangerous game in the world. This Jack Carter design maximizes stopping power and your confidence. It's a bonded bronze solid with a flat nose that minimizes deflection off bone and muscle for a deep, straight wound channel.

or

Woodleigh® Solid



Woodleigh Solid is a top choice for safari hunters and provides the energy and penetration needed for large game.
Full Metal Jacket
The most heavily constructed steel
jacketed solids available. Made from
extra deep drawing grade steel, clad
with 90/10 gilding metal alloy. The
jacket is heavy at the nose (0.084”)
to create extra impact resistance. The
base of the bullet is rolled back 90
degrees to provide a double strength
heel to prevent core loss on impact

Edited by bwananelson (03/12/09 12:51 PM)


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500Nitro
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: bwananelson]
      #147104 - 03/12/09 12:47 PM

Quote:

http://www.rockislandauction.com/photos/48/p_standard/WEF301-Q-CU90-L.jpg

nice target





Well I'd expect a Rigby made around 1905 to shoot.

Good to see it regulates with modern ammo.


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bwananelson
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 500Nitro]
      #147106 - 03/12/09 12:53 PM

one of the sweetest groups i have seen by the by this gun is up for auction

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

Edited by bwananelson (03/12/09 12:55 PM)


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ChrisPer
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: bwananelson]
      #147110 - 03/12/09 01:52 PM

Its worth noting that a barrel that shows 'shadow rifling' on the outside may have had the shadows before firing the solids. What was the rifling method - do those who have seen the problem know?

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4seventy
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Huvius]
      #147117 - 03/12/09 03:19 PM

Quote:

So, just how much of an issue is this if you can barely see it, may not be able to measure it, and it has no effect on accuracy or regulation?
Sounds like a big to do about nothing.





You could be correct, who knows.

On page 234 of Graeme Wright's latest book however, there is a photo of a blown .577 DR barrel. There is a large chunk of metal missing from the right barrel, and it is stated that the shooter was injured.
OSR was apparently visible on the left barrel, and GW says that with this particular rifle, he believes the OSR and the blow up were related.


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 4seventy]
      #147133 - 04/12/09 12:56 AM

ChrisPer:

As 4seventy says, you could be right. No one who claims significant experience with OSR has ever demonstrated or documented any investigation into this possibility here. I don't think anyone truly knows, but some engineers I've discussed the issue with have suggested that there could indeed be a relationship between rifling type and stresses induced by it and OSR and indeed, possibly even a release of stresses over time that might not have anything to do with shooting, might be caused by shooting large numbers of bullets or might be caused by shooting of hard bullets.

Again, as 4seventy says, who knows.

To answer your question further, IMO, your suggestion deserves deeper investigation. It has been brought up in the past on these threads. Since no one here has shed any light on the possibility, you might be better off investigating this possibility elsewhere.

No one to my knowledge has done extensive testing to determine actual, specific causes of OSR. That lack of concrete data has prompted the independent and commercial testing being pursued now.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (04/12/09 01:24 AM)


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bwanakim
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #149096 - 30/12/09 02:50 PM

I've been reading this thread with great interest. I'm no engineer, but the logic that damage would be done by firing monolithic solids through a DR's barrels is compelling enough for me without pictures! Suffice to say I would NEVER shoot them through any of mine--all vintage British rifles.

Question, though: on page 136 of the second edition (I'm waiting for delivery of the 3rd) Wright says in speaking of OSR: "I would like to say...that in most cases the damage can be repaired."

Does anyone here know how it is repaired? If a bullet has gone through a barrel and enlarged the bore, or flattened the lands, how can the barrels ever be restored? Just for my own information, I'd like to know about this.

Thanks!

--------------------
bwanakim


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tinker
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: bwanakim]
      #149097 - 30/12/09 03:01 PM

B'Kim-



Quote:


Question, though: on page 136 of the second edition (I'm waiting for delivery of the 3rd) Wright says in speaking of OSR: "I would like to say...that in most cases the damage can be repaired."

Does anyone here know how it is repaired?








The short answer is 'The Hammer'
Barrel bulges (and such) can be hand hammer-forged back into place.
Not good-as-new, but it's a repair that's been on the menu for as long as there have been gun barrels.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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kamilaroi
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: tinker]
      #149100 - 30/12/09 05:42 PM

After talking to at least 2 respondents here maybe OSR is related to exceeding the modulus of elasticity of a given steel alloy. Mind you there were a few varieties around 1900, incl Krupps Flusstahl that was apparently very highly rated, then pom stuff, Poldi etc etc.

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tinker
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: kamilaroi]
      #149103 - 30/12/09 06:46 PM

kamilaroi-


Quote:

After talking to at least 2 respondents here maybe OSR is related to exceeding the modulus of elasticity of a given steel alloy. Mind you there were a few varieties around 1900, incl Krupps Flusstahl that was apparently very highly rated, then pom stuff, Poldi etc etc.






I definitely agree that the OSR issue appears to be indication of excursions outside the elastic limits of barrel steels.

Have you seen this thread?


I don't necessarily agree that hammering a bulged barrel back to shape is a great idea, but it's done anyway.
From what I've heard that happens to guns and rifles that have then gone on to pass proof.

I prefer to take a more prophylactic approach - by way of careful diet and care of what I have!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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4seventy
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: bwanakim]
      #149109 - 30/12/09 08:01 PM

Quote:

I've been reading this thread with great interest. I'm no engineer, but the logic that damage would be done by firing monolithic solids through a DR's barrels is compelling enough for me without pictures! Suffice to say I would NEVER shoot them through any of mine--all vintage British rifles.

Question, though: on page 136 of the second edition (I'm waiting for delivery of the 3rd) Wright says in speaking of OSR: "I would like to say...that in most cases the damage can be repaired."

Does anyone here know how it is repaired? If a bullet has gone through a barrel and enlarged the bore, or flattened the lands, how can the barrels ever be restored? Just for my own information, I'd like to know about this.

Thanks!




I don't think that OSR can actually be repaired.
Evidence of OSR could be removed if the barrels are re-struck, but this is not a repair, just a disguise.

Rib solder joints can be repaired.


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kamilaroi
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: tinker]
      #149110 - 30/12/09 08:48 PM

Quote:

kamilaroi-


Quote:

After talking to at least 2 respondents here maybe OSR is related to exceeding the modulus of elasticity of a given steel alloy. Mind you there were a few varieties around 1900, incl Krupps Flusstahl that was apparently very highly rated, then pom stuff, Poldi etc etc.






I definitely agree that the OSR issue appears to be indication of excursions outside the elastic limits of barrel steels.

Have you seen this thread?


I don't necessarily agree that hammering a bulged barrel back to shape is a great idea, but it's done anyway.
From what I've heard that happens to guns and rifles that have then gone on to pass proof.

I prefer to take a more prophylactic approach - by way of careful diet and care of what I have!

Cheers
Tinker




Yep,

Following same for some time and noting sundry "positions" taken, many without a grasp of what minimal metallurgy even I know.

I think Dunlap and Ackley got it abt right until the 1950's. AFAIK the use of lead inclusive "free machining" steels has done a world of harm and this may be why the euro makers prefer their own brews.


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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: kamilaroi]
      #149122 - 31/12/09 02:50 AM

I don't necessarily agree that hammering a bulged barrel back to shape is a great idea, but it's done anyway.
From what I've heard that happens to guns and rifles that have then gone on to pass proof.

I prefer to take a more prophylactic approach - by way of careful diet and care of what I have!

Cheers
Tinker

Of course, a barrel bulged in proofing, is hammered down, then re-proofed, hammered, etc, until it passes - if it doesnt blow, of course.

"Struck or Striking" - refers to filing, not hammering - if WW Greener can be believed. I cannot see fling away evidence of trouble or hammering a problem as being a solution, either. Hammering down a bulge us different I suppose, as the hammering work-hardens - whether this relates to Damascus barrels only, or only when BP is used for proofing, I don't know.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
      #149129 - 31/12/09 03:27 AM

Daryl-


Quote:

...Of course, a barrel bulged in proofing, is hammered down, then re-proofed, hammered, etc, until it passes - if it doesnt blow, of course.

"Struck or Striking" - refers to filing, not hammering...





I know the difference.
And I've seen rifles with bulged barrels crated and shipped off for a vacation tour to the hammer then the proof house.

It happens, and if given the full skinny on a rifle that had 'been there' I'd pass on it as a matter of course.


Sound wacky? (pun intended)
I thought so too the first time I heard of hammering barrel bulges (etc) back into place as a 'repair'
Not so much my cup of tea, but they do it...




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: tinker]
      #149133 - 31/12/09 04:03 AM

Tinker - no offence intended. I should have rear higher up in the thread.

I was quite surprised when I read about hammering buldges repeatedly until they passed proof in "The Gun etc".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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