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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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400NitroExpress
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
#144676 - 29/10/09 04:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Andreas -
And when slugging the barrel before were there any differences as to wear or whatever?

Question on 'changes' to measurements was asked pages ago - still waiting for an answer.

That isn't the question he asked. You asked about the changes. Your insults got you an answer, too, didn't they?

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#144688 - 29/10/09 07:03 AM

Askings questions is an insult, eh - well, I'll be damned.

I appologised but wasn't accepted - oh well.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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400NitroExpress
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
#144689 - 29/10/09 08:12 AM

Quote:

I appologised but wasn't accepted - oh well.

Because you went right back to insults in your very next post.

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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JDD
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
#144727 - 30/10/09 12:14 AM

When they pull a button through a barrel to form rifling, is any metal removed? My understanding is that the metal is displaced not removed. OSR is the displacement of metal. As a barrel ages and is fired many times does the steel work harden. I think ribs coming loose and loss of regulation is a bigger problem with the older mono bullets than osr. What does JJ have to say about this ,He's done more repair work on new and old doubles than any one else.

At least there is a public statement by Barnes now, if you were to have a problem, It would be much easier to recover any losses in court or via a insurance claim. They are missing the boat by not resolving this, they would expand their customer base and take a large share of the market that wooleigh has had wrapped up for years.

JD

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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: JDD]
#144737 - 30/10/09 01:22 AM

Buttoning impresses the rifling with a tungsten button pulled through the barrel whereas hammer forging forces the barrel's metal onto an outside-rifled mandrel with rolling hammers - in a nutshell.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_366
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
#144752 - 30/10/09 05:32 AM

Older ones would likely to be cut rifled or am i wrong.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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calpappas
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Ripp]
#144773 - 30/10/09 12:16 PM

Gents:
For what it is worth...At the SCI show in January I took home two boxes of Barnes banded solids and later bought two more. I wanted to see for myself how they would do in my vintage Wilkes .600 nitro express. I also used the data for two pages in my book on the .600. Bottom line--no problems at all. Accuracy was the same, the rifle opened with ease. Folks have related to me stories of the rifling being visible on the outside of the barrels, the barrels splitting, and (my favorite) the rifling lands being pushed several inches out of the muzzle. Stories like this remind me of the tales of the dangers of shooting twist or Damascus barrels--how they will blow up.

If any of you gent would like to see my story that is in my book, I will reproduce it and place it here if I can figure out how to do it.

Cal Pappas

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Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

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gryphon
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: calpappas]
#144784 - 30/10/09 02:38 PM

Yep I would like to read it Cal

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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: gryphon]
#144788 - 30/10/09 04:03 PM

I'd be very interested also.

About how many rounds of monos have you shot through your rifle now?

Have you slugged the bore; land and groove measurements? What do Barnes .600's actually mike? I'm curious because Wright's summary points to incompatible dimensions as primary source of barrel damage with what he calls "hard" bullets {not necessarily restricted to monos}.

Very interesting and thanks very much for posting.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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bwananelson
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
#144789 - 30/10/09 04:21 PM

expert after expert pro's have stated no problems but their id still those that will nevert be swayed,rifle makers.bullet makers ,money on the table for proff and still they wont be swayed really dont you think this forum is done minds wont be changed and we know this will rise again in less than a year like and abcess.you all have your learned points but its done dont shoot the bullet you dont like but dont say it will do things it wont,please as a favor to all of us lets find a new subject to squable over.im saying this without malice or with the intention of hurting no ones feelings but this has gone over a year with no proof just speculation and hear say my weatherby has a thin barrel and it has over 3000 barnes through it and no rifling in the out side yet.i know my post wont mean squat but it had to be said

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CptCurl
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: calpappas]
#144803 - 31/10/09 12:46 AM

Quote:

Gents:
For what it is worth...At the SCI show in January I took home two boxes of Barnes banded solids and later bought two more. I wanted to see for myself how they would do in my vintage Wilkes .600 nitro express. I also used the data for two pages in my book on the .600. Bottom line--no problems at all. Accuracy was the same, the rifle opened with ease. Folks have related to me stories of the rifling being visible on the outside of the barrels, the barrels splitting, and (my favorite) the rifling lands being pushed several inches out of the muzzle. Stories like this remind me of the tales of the dangers of shooting twist or Damascus barrels--how they will blow up.

If any of you gent would like to see my story that is in my book, I will reproduce it and place it here if I can figure out how to do it.

Cal Pappas

Mr. Pappas,

Do you advocate the position that overstressed rifling is a myth that doesn't occur? It sure sounds that way.

In my opinion that's a reckless position to stake out.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: CptCurl]
#144810 - 31/10/09 02:38 AM

Although I am happy Cal didn't have any problems in his .600, my friend has no problems in his Drilling, with an exceptionally thin tube virtually right from the chamber, I remain unconvinced either way.

I know or perhaps feel is a better word, that OSR could very well happen or has happened to a few rifles under the right/wrong circumstances with perhaps older rifles which have or had questionable barrel strength, dimensions or weight of barrels. I still question 'which' or 'how many' different bullets are responsible & if the current variations of grooved bullets can be susupect at all.

The little 'tit' of lead protruding from the base of some 'solids' is caused by the flow or extrusion of the interior lead from being compressed by the lands pressing in the sides of the jacket, in simple terms. It cannot protrude out the nose as that is encased in jacket material. It cannot be contained inside as the bullet is being held by the lands and grooves to the size of the bullet being passed through, which in itself, eliminates the possibility of oburation (expansion). The lead does not obturate out the rear of the jacket, it is extruded out the rear of the jacket, just as when swaging bullets, a tit or string of lead is extruded out the bleed hole of the die when the core is queezed to a smaller size.

The grooved bullets such as Barnes banded bullets won't obturate, which is a good thing and noted on the Barnes web site. They are slightly undersized over most of their legnth and due to their construction, cannot expand, ie: obturate. The grooves of the banded bullets give the displaced metal of the bullet a place to go - which is the reason for their design according to the bullet makers themselves. Do the grooves do other things, yes - but in this particular case, this is an important trait of these bullets.

"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

Don't know who said this, but it's true - across the board.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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calpappas
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: CptCurl]
#144814 - 31/10/09 02:51 AM

Good day gents:

My .600 Wilkes has a groove diameter of .622. The Barnes bullets are .618 (This is from memory). The recovered bullets showed rifling engraved through the outside diameter of the bullet but NOT in the bands. I believe this keeps pressures low.

As to over stressed rifling--sure it is possible. My statement has been for 20 years that if any rifle (double or not) is shot to the original velocity, original bullet diameter and weight, and the powder is of the proper burning rate, all should be fine. However, and deviation will or may result in problems as well barrels that are excessively pitted, worn, too thin from reaming or sanding (shotguns here) etc.

My life with fine double rifles and my writing is based on practical everyday experience. I'm not a technical writer nor a user of fancy phrases such as Capstick was, but focus on shooting these fine firearms every day (except in the cold winter months here in Alaska). 20 yeas ago I began shooting my Damascus barreled shotguns and rifles loading smokeless to the same pressure and velocity as the original black powder load and never had a problem. Over the years I have listened to and read countless stories of the dangers of doing so and the new fears of banded solids seem to echo the same fears. However, I have never spoken to anyone who has actually seen a Damascus barrel blow up nor have I talked to anyone with actual experience of monometal bullets damaging a rifle--all know it to be true because someone else told them.

I'm not the last word on this stuff, but I can tell you what I have been shooting through my English doubles for two decades. You can see some of my rifles and ballistics on the 4-bore on my website.

When I can figure out how to reproduce the two pages of my .600 book about the Barnes bullets, I will post them here. I have also sent a scan of the pages to Barnes with permission to use them and/or reproduce them any way they wish. I have not been paid for anything I wrote on the banded solids.
Cal

PS. Let me try to put the scans on my website. That may be easier for someone of my limited computer knowledge.

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

_______________________________________________________________________

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Altamaha
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: calpappas]
#144817 - 31/10/09 03:05 AM

Ahh, Bwanna, bolt guns are not a true test. Mechanics are very different due to the small bore size vs. the wall thickness. A large bore double with thin barrel walls near the muzzle will react much differently. And throw in the softer steel of old double rifles vs. 4140 and you have a big difference.

I have shot solid steel bullets down a 50 BMG barrel at 2700 ft/sec with no visible damage, but we are dealing with a very heavy barrel with around 1/2" wall thickness at the muzzle, i.e., 1-1/2" outside barrel diameter at the muzzle, 2" at the chamber.

Yep, this subject has been shot, hung, drawn and quartered, but the meat was left to rot and nothing edible remains. Time to close this thread and patiently wait for scientific test results!!!

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mickey
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Altamaha]
#144819 - 31/10/09 04:13 AM

Before OSR is talked into non existence let's remember 400Nitroexpress has offered to show anyone who shows up at SCI a rifle that has it.

I would also point out that most of the claims revolve around non banded mono metal solids, not the new banded ones that have been made in reaction to the claims.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: mickey]
#144852 - 31/10/09 01:12 PM

Quote:

Before OSR is talked into non existence let's remember 400Nitroexpress has offered to show anyone who shows up at SCI a rifle that has it.

I would also point out that most of the claims revolve around non banded mono metal solids, not the new banded ones that have been made in reaction to the claims.

Please take note, and sincerely I hope someone can get some pix to start a file here, something I've been hoping to get going for a loing time. I'm still hoping this forum can be the repository of documentation for this issue and for causes of damage in general. What better place?

As for investigations into the cause of OSR and ways to prevent it, several efforts are now being made. I'll post the results as they are made known to me. Others will as well, no doubt.

These promise to be interesting projects.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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500grains
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
#144874 - 31/10/09 05:27 PM

Perhaps this analogy is overly simplisitic, but I will post it anyway.

I have been driving every day for 30 years and I have still not been killed by a drink driver. Nor have I personally witnessed anyone killed by a drunk driver.

Therefore no one has ever been killed by a drunk driver.

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calpappas
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 500grains]
#144875 - 31/10/09 06:09 PM

For those wanting to see what is in my book on banded solids go to my website and click on "double rifles" on the navigation bar and it is there. calpappas.com Again, this is what I did with my rifle and nearly 100 rounds fired.
Cheers,
Cal

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

_______________________________________________________________________

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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: calpappas]
#144891 - 01/11/09 02:31 AM

Mickey and 500grains - you both make excellent points.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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470evans
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: calpappas]
#144895 - 01/11/09 03:07 AM

Cal,

I'm glad you haven't seen any damage to your Wilkes, have you ever seen a gun with OSR? That's a rare gun to experiment with.

Can you bring the 600 to SCI?

Most people who have never had OSR pointed out to them don't know what it looks like and many have handled doubles with OSR that weren't aware it was there , I know I didn't know how to see it until JJ pointed it out to me.

The analogy that the same way you determine the quality of striking on a double barrel shotgun is the same way to pick up OSR is a good one.

There will be some surprised people at SCI when they see the gun 400 brings. The argument will stop being does OSR exist? which is silly, and focus on the cause, which is a good thing.

I've handled 5 guns with OSR so far. 2 1906-1908 era British doubles, 2 1920's British doubles and 1 1920's Belgium double.

My only confirmation that monos cause OSR is the owners of 2 of these doubles that I've handled with OSR shot quite a few Barnes bullets through them. My doubles, 6 of them, that didn't have OSR when I got them and have been shot exclusively with Woodleighs, Hornady lead core and Hawk bullets still exhibit no OSR.

Is that "proof" the monos caused it? No, but it's good enough for this DR owner not to fool around with monos.

Edited by 470evans (01/11/09 03:24 AM)

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Anonymous
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
#144897 - 01/11/09 03:56 AM

400 already examined specimens destroyed by said solids, I think its rude to scoff at his results and await testing from another source.

If it takes the ruination of another double to prove it for some of you, I suggest you buy a nice DR and go shoot Barnes nono's yourself, since there's 'no' proof or pictures of said OSR damage that will satisfy you seemingly now or ever.

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CptCurl
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: ]
#144900 - 01/11/09 05:35 AM

Ditto that!

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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calpappas
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: ]
#144901 - 01/11/09 05:43 AM

470 Evans:
Good day, mate. I will be at both Dallas and Reno Safari Club shows at the African Hunter booth selling my book on the .600s. I will have both my .600 and the 4-bore with me to show to interested folks and (maybe) put the 4 bore Hughes up for sale as there is another for sale and I want to upgrade a bit.
I've never seen a rifle with OSR but have listened to countless stories of it but no one has actually showed me one. Kind of like Nessie, UFOs, and Bigfoot--lots of stories but no clear photos or examples. However, I can't imagine the banded solids hurting my .600 as they are undersize and the bands reduce pressure. I've shot nearly 4 boxes with no problems. I also shoot Woodleigh softs and solids when I hunt and, of course, cast when I plink (if one actually "plinks" with a .600).
Cheers,
Cal

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

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500Nitro
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: calpappas]
#144906 - 01/11/09 08:30 AM

The other thing that seems to happen is that not every double shot with the said problem bullets suffers from OSR.

After all, think how many doubles are out there, think how many MAY have shot some of the bullets through them and then how many OSR Doubles can we pin down - not that many.

So firing the problem bullets though a double isn't always going to cause OSR but as 470Evans said well

"Is that "proof" the monos caused it ? No, but it's good enough for this DR owner not to fool around with monos."

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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: ]
#144912 - 01/11/09 09:49 AM

Quote:

400 already examined specimens destroyed by said solids, I think its rude to scoff at his results and await testing from another source.

Nobody is scoffing at any "results".

The new testing is to isolate exact causes of OSR as opposed to the generalized "mono's".

Might be a good place to remind the readership that Wright uses the term "hard bullets" in his discussion of OSR. Such bullets he says are not limited to "mono's".

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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