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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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tinker
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
      #149138 - 31/12/09 07:19 AM

No worries at all Daryl!

Good to get the distinction out there that 'striking' does not equal 'hammering'!!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
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"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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4seventy
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
      #149146 - 31/12/09 09:01 AM

Quote:

"Struck or Striking" - refers to filing, not hammering




This is true, and a "restrike" could remove or conceal the evidence of OSR.
OSR is different to "bulging" of the barrels.
Bulging is more likely to be localised in one area, where OSR can apparently sometimes be visible over almost the entire length of the barrel/s.


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450_366
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 4seventy]
      #149151 - 31/12/09 09:53 AM

Bulgin been hammered back on a rifled barrel? Its been done a lot on smooth bores but on rifled barrels in modern times on modern steel? that must be quite rare.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 450_366]
      #149153 - 31/12/09 11:19 AM

I don't know about rifled barels either, Andreas. That seems to be a very poor fix. I would think a rifled barrel would have to be replaced. We've raised dents n smoothbores quite easily using mandrels and hammers, but never had to hammer a bulge back.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
      #149159 - 31/12/09 01:41 PM

I don't think it would be any trick at all to remove OSR-damage from a double if such lines are barely visible.

As far as restriking barrels is concerned, more to the point tho is what has been brought to my attention in the past; many British doubles are or have been refinished over and over again. Restriking barrels can certainly over time reduce barrel wall thickness and might in fact be the "cause" of OSR in many guns!!

Possibly some think in terms of rebluing a rifle and what might be a minimal surface cleanup on the wheel but those of us that use the file know what it can do. Heck, I make knives with them...I reckon repeated use on thin-tubed gun barrels ain't gonna do them one bit of good for holding pressures...!

The use of the file to eliminate pits and whatnot might very well over time set a barrel up for failure.

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470evans
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #151849 - 26/01/10 07:27 AM

I thought you guys may appreciate a recent development as outlined by Cal on his website.

http://www.calpappas.com/


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 470evans]
      #151888 - 26/01/10 01:46 PM

Great stuff!

Recently I have had a long conversation about this topic with Dave Scovill of Wolfe Publishing. Interestingly, he has suggestions for mono bullet design that I think are worth repeating.

He suggests that mono's should have a diameter across the bands that goes .001 under groove depth and shaft diameters that are at least .004-TO-.006" UNDER LAND DIAMETER OF THE GUN IN WHICH THEY WILL BE FIRED.

His theory goes back to an issue discussed in this thread some pages back; namely, that monos do not obturate. I believe it was 400Nitroexpress who stated that at 38000 CUP or something like that a mono doesn't obturate. This is on the face of it, true, and accepted by all of us, except Dave says that the rearmost BULLET groove will, under the pressure of a shot fired with nitro powder, compress a bit. This may only occur in the one or two BULLET grooves closest to the base of the bullet, but such a collapse/compression is real, and it effects both pressure and barrel stress.

He points to engine pistons as examples. He says "seizure" of perfectly-fitting piston/cylinders can occur; under compression of firing, the piston may seize for a moment and apply immense stress to the cylinder.

I'm just passing this information on, as it seems the best explanation of how a "perfectly fitting" bullet could damage a barrel. I have no idea of the validity of the issue regarding protection from OSR. Scovill says ACCURACY will improve dramatically if his principles are applied to monos.

Seems about time I call Barnes and see how the experiments are going, too....

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #151959 - 27/01/10 02:35 AM

Note the new Hornady and Nosler monos - not many bands for eitehr it appears - but I haven't measured any, either. Nosler is quite proud of theirs at double the cost of any others around here.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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JabaliHunter
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #151971 - 27/01/10 05:07 AM

Quote:

He points to engine pistons as examples. He says "seizure" of perfectly-fitting piston/cylinders can occur; under compression of firing, the piston may seize for a moment and apply immense stress to the cylinder.



A race mechanic once told me that a Formula 1 race engine has to be pre-heated to near operating temperature before it can be started as when cold the pistons are seized solid. Can't comment on that, but perhaps temperature can also play a part in creating OSR with tight bullets?


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500Nitro
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #151972 - 27/01/10 05:12 AM

Well I have now fired some of the new Woodleigh Hydrstatic bullets through one of my doubles (a very old WR 500/465) and no problems. They also kill damn well !!!

I would have no problems using them Woodleigh Hydrostatic in any of my doubles.

Had a close look at the shanks of the bullets after recovery
and Woodleigh have got it right in terms of bands engage the rifling but the main part of the bullet doesn't.

Edited by 500Nitro (27/01/10 05:12 AM)


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450_366
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #151983 - 27/01/10 06:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:

He points to engine pistons as examples. He says "seizure" of perfectly-fitting piston/cylinders can occur; under compression of firing, the piston may seize for a moment and apply immense stress to the cylinder.



A race mechanic once told me that a Formula 1 race engine has to be pre-heated to near operating temperature before it can be started as when cold the pistons are seized solid. Can't comment on that, but perhaps temperature can also play a part in creating OSR with tight bullets?




You are absloutely right thuy are docked to a heater before startup, but i think its the main bearing on those engine that are stuck, or at least also.

So firing a buch of proper bullet before to warm her up and then a couple of hard ones perhaps helps, anyone up for it.

btw, i wonder who the upset one with the 450/400 was? I would have gotten up to the barnes booth and gone bärsärk.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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404bearslayer
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 450_366]
      #151986 - 27/01/10 07:24 AM

Reading the claims and counter-claims on the issue of OSR, I think it is important to take a step back from the various attempts of explanation.

Gun writers, first of all, have often only very cursory knowledge of internal ballistics. What they state on issues of this kind is usually what they have heard elsewhere, not necessarily something they either understand or have thought through.

Bullet makers have of course knowledge in their particular field, but arrive at conclusions about their products quite often by trial and error rather then by applying scientific theories. Consequently, they have a hard time explaining a particular process relating to their bullets. Usually, they will tell you they have done 'this and that' and therefore, in there opinion, there is no problem. 'This and that' is of course a test with regular barrels in this case, and I will get back to that, as it is important in regards to claimed observations of OSR.

In very simple terms, launching a bullet through a barrel means that a harder material (the barrel) forces its shape on a softer material (the bullet). As long as the material of the bullet is significantly softer then the barrel, and that is the case for traditional bullets as well as solids, then the barrel will displace bullet matter, and not the other way around. Irregardless of how hard that may be, this process is done with after the bullet has traveled the distance of its own length - it is engraved from this point on and does not offer further relevant resistance on its way along the barrel. That gets us to why bullet makers tend to undersize their solids, or why they apply drive-bands. A tougher bullet material is initially harder to displace, making loads that employ such bullets prone to early pressure spikes if not properly adjusted. Damage to a rifle from such a bullet may therefore occur as a result of excessive pressure that exceeds the tensile strength of the barrel. This effect, if it does not blow up the barrel outright, is of course felt along the entire length of the barrel while the bullet still travels inside. The prerequisite of a bursting barrel (provided it is the weakest link) is that it bulges and bulges until the barrel cannot take it anymore and bursts. A barrel that was just before bursting point because of excessive pressure should therefore look very much like the claimed manifestation of OSR. A barrel exposed to that kind of pressure would not spring back fully to what it was before, and in a double it might well have loosened the soldered rib. However, this displacement in the barrel was caused by excessive pressure as a result of the INITAL engraving resistance of a bullet that was launched with a load that was too strong for that type of bullet.

That brings us to why bullet makers claim these bullets are safe, while traditional rifle makers tend to advise against them. I might note here, that my modern H&H double was regulated with TTBC bullets, which are also mono-metal (in the shank area - and in .470 caliber only their shank is actually subject to engraving). The simple reason for this is that a modern gun, with the properly adjusted load, can shoot mono-metal solids without any problem. With the right load they do not even have to be undersized, and they could actually be a tad harder as well. The problem is that a lot of people don't think when they're reloading and just transfer load data without regard to bullets' differing friction and engraving properties.

Older guns, with generally thinner barrels and softer steel, are a therfore a different matter. They simply do not have the safety margin that modern guns have when a load is not adjusted to a particular bullet's properties. I might add here, that it is not always old manufacturing processes or the thin barrels that make them more prone to damage: There are gunsmiths that 'fix' off-face doubles by heating and bending the worn-out locking lugs. You can imagine what improperly applied heat can do to a rifle. According to my gunsmith this practice is more widespread then one might wish for, and quite dangerous for the shooter, as the metallurgical properties of the entire barrel-bundle are altered by this.

Edited by 404bearslayer (27/01/10 07:31 AM)


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400NitroExpress
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 450_366]
      #151989 - 27/01/10 07:47 AM

Quote:

btw, i wonder who the upset one with the 450/400 was?




That would be me. Earlier in this thread, I promised to be at SCI at the Heym booth with a double rifle with OSR to show anyone interested. I was. I flew in Tuesday and promptly got sick as a horse. I was in bed through Friday, and was only in the booth for a full day on Saturday. However, the rifle was in the booth for anyone to look at the entire time.

I was showing the rifle to Graeme Saturday morning, and Cal's name came up in conversation. I mentioned that I was disappointed to have missed him, as he had been one that had posted on this thread that had been skeptical. Graeme said "I'll go get him right now" and was back with Cal in tow in minutes. He had trouble seeing the OSR initially, but with Graeme's help was finally able to. His description of this rifle in the link is accurate. The OSR is mild and visible only on the left barrel. This is why this wasn't the rifle I originally intended to bring. The other four rifles I previously mentioned in this string have OSR that is much more severe and more readily visible. Unfortunately, last minute changes in plans messed up the logistics, and I had to bring this one instead.

There were a lot of skeptics on this string. Anyone that still is should read what Cal has to say in the link. In addition to Graeme Wright and Cal Pappas, Russell Wilkin (Technial Director, Gunmaking, Holland & Holland) examined it and will remember the gun, as did Butch Searcy.

Russell Wilkin said - if I understood him correctly - that in his experience the "banded" designs had not solved the problem. I wish I'd had time to dig into that deeper with him then, but I didn't. I'll do so soon.

Quote:

I would have gotten up to the barnes booth and gone bärsärk.




Been there, done that. They say "that's impossible", and there you are.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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450_366
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #151992 - 27/01/10 08:12 AM

Quote:

There are gunsmiths that 'fix' off-face doubles by heating and bending the worn-out locking lugs. You can imagine what improperly applied heat can do to a rifle. According to my gunsmith this practice is more widespread then one might wish for, and quite dangerous for the shooter, as the metallurgical properties of the entire barrel-bundle are altered by this.





Sound like dodgy gunworks to me, but cant understan how it would affect the barrels anymore then the brazing of the lump? A proper smith would see the temprature and would also see to that it gets the proper cooling for it to regain if lost its strenght, or am i missing something, as usuall.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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500Nitro
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 450_366]
      #151993 - 27/01/10 08:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:

There are gunsmiths that 'fix' off-face doubles by heating and bending the worn-out locking lugs. You can imagine what improperly applied heat can do to a rifle. According to my gunsmith this practice is more widespread then one might wish for, and quite dangerous for the shooter, as the metallurgical properties of the entire barrel-bundle are altered by this.





Sound like dodgy gunworks to me, but cant understan how it would affect the barrels anymore then the brazing of the lump? A proper smith would see the temprature and would also see to that it gets the proper cooling for it to regain if lost its strenght, or am i missing something, as usuall.





Sounds like an extension of the "squeeze the lugs in the vice trick" to tighten a loose gun.


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404bearslayer
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 500Nitro]
      #151998 - 27/01/10 09:29 AM

450_366:

First of all, a double that has seriously come off face is damaged goods to begin with. Any metal that is exposed to stresses beyond its intended design is from that point on weaker then before. A rifle that has survived serious excessive pressure close to breaking point will not do so the next time.

So now you have a system that is already considerably weaker then before. A gun smith cannot 'know or see' the proper temperature for a particular gun if he does not know the exact properties of the metal in question. Depending on prior stresses he might not even be aware of, the carbon content and the percentage and quality of impurities of the steel in question, he might change the structure of the steel to something downright life-threatening. It might not blow up with the next regular load, but you are in danger territory a lot earlier. Just a regular propane handtorch can reach temperatures well beyond what is needed to either over-soften the metal or to turn it into brittle scrap metal. Guess what these guys use to heat up the massive locking lugs. And heat travels, especially quickly in thin barrels. This practice is not limited to doubles, by the way. It's a dirty secret among European gun smiths that they often use a blow-torch to heat up jammed barrel / receiver junctions in old Mauser 98 rifles when they want to use the parts of the old 98 for something else. Guns based on these once overheated parts tend to blow up after one or two decades normal use, when the culprit of the cause is long forgotten.


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4seventy
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #152002 - 27/01/10 10:31 AM

Quote:

Just a regular propane handtorch can reach temperatures well beyond what is needed to either over-soften the metal or to turn it into brittle scrap metal. Guess what these guys use to heat up the massive locking lugs. And heat travels, especially quickly in thin barrels. This practice is not limited to doubles, by the way.




I find it a bit hard to believe that this would happen much if at all.
That sort of heat on double rifle barrels would result in a pile of solder on the workshop floor, and would require a full relaying of all the ribs, as well as the fore-end loop.

Dodgy gun repairers know of far more simple ways of (temporarily) tightening loose doubles, and they do it without the use of any heat.


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404bearslayer
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 4seventy]
      #152004 - 27/01/10 10:58 AM

4seventy,

would agree with your assessment if I had not been shown and explained examples of that by my gunsmith.

In one example you could still see where the flame of the torch was applied on the lug, even a layman could see that the lugs were ruined by heat - the surface looked almost like brimstone. Don't know how they handle the solder issue. They might have the barrels submerged in water while they do that or simply re- solder afterwards. Certainly cheaper then building a double from scratch, easy money is the issue here anyhow.

In another case, someone had not worked on the barrel bundle, but on the receiver, which was heated up and then hammed on sideways so that an extrusion of metal would form left and right of the barrel breech that was utilized to keep the gun closed like in a vice (!). To obscure this, the smith in question then had the entire breech area nickel-plated. Hard to believe until you actually see it.

The point in regard to the above discussion is that a gun that was built in, say, 1905, can have been exposed to improper treatment at some point during its long life, which might not necessarily be visible. Therefore it is a good idea to be a bit more careful with these guns.

Edited by 404bearslayer (27/01/10 11:08 AM)


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4seventy
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #152005 - 27/01/10 11:05 AM


Quote:

In one example you could still see where the flame of the torch was applied on the lug, even a layman could see that the lugs were ruined by heat - the surface looked almost like brimstone.



404,

What do you mean by the "lugs"?
Are you referring to the lumps, or the bites, and what are they actually bending with the applied heat to tighten an off face double?


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gryphon
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 4seventy]
      #152006 - 27/01/10 11:18 AM


Well I have now fired some of the new Woodleigh Hydrstatic bullets through one of my doubles (a very old WR 500/465) and no problems. They also kill damn well !!!

So Nigel wtf did you kill man?

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500Nitro
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: gryphon]
      #152008 - 27/01/10 11:29 AM

Quote:


Well I have now fired some of the new Woodleigh Hydrstatic bullets through one of my doubles (a very old WR 500/465) and no problems. They also kill damn well !!!

So Nigel wtf did you kill man?





2 Water Buffalo - one really big bodied one as well.

If I knew how to post photos, I would.

I didn't know I was going to be using them, but on my annual trip up to the NT (where my 500/465 lives on a permanent basis), it was decided (not by me) that some test results / recoveries from a DR would be good to have and because my gun was up there, they made some bullets for it.

I was very impressed to say the least with how they went,
not that I had much doubt. I also spoke at length to Geoff from Woodleigh and would have no problems using them in any of my doubles.


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404bearslayer
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 4seventy]
      #152009 - 27/01/10 11:35 AM


4seventy,

What I meant is called 'Laufhaken' in German. The literal translation of that is 'barrel hook'. The example that I was shown was a 'Doppelte Laufhaken Verriegelung', which literaly means 'double hook lock', which is simply a double locking lug system (without anything else, so no a Greener cross-bolt, for example). These lugs / hooks were apparently worked on.


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4seventy
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #152012 - 27/01/10 11:58 AM

Quote:

What I meant is called 'Laufhaken' in German. The literal translation of that is 'barrel hook'.




404, Thanks for that, but there is still some confusion regarding the translation there.
The "hook" on a double is referring to location of the semi circular cutaway, usually on the forward face of the front lump.
This hook is what allows the barrels to pivot on the action's hinge pin when the gun is opened and closed.

Quote:

The example that I was shown was a 'Doppelte Laufhaken Verriegelung', which literaly means 'double hook lock', which is simply a double locking lug system (without anything else, so no a Greener cross-bolt, for example). These lugs / hooks were apparently worked on.




This "double hook lock" you refer to sounds like you are talking about the bolting system which locks the barrels to the action frame. This is where a sliding bolt located under the barrels, engages into bites located in the barrel lumps, when the gun is closed.

So I'm guessing that you are saying that the apparent heat damage is located at the barrel bites?


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404bearslayer
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 4seventy]
      #152015 - 27/01/10 12:38 PM


4seventy,

I guess you are trying to pinpoint where the heat was applied on the lumps, as for example at the semi-circular section. It looked like the entire lumps were exposed, but I did not examine them closely enough to identify focal points. I am also not familiar with what exactly that guy wanted to accomplish there, so did not look further. What I kept in mind was that older guns might have been tinkered with. With 'Laufhaken' (barrel hook), we refer to the entire lump in German, by the way. 'Doppellaufhaken' would the be a 'double lump', I guess.


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tinker
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #152019 - 27/01/10 02:26 PM

There are metal deposition (spray) processes which can leave the appearance of brimstone, local to the area of affect.

Depending on the parent materials, the end result can give a very very tough and hard surface that can be machined/ground/finished.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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