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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Phil_in_the_UK
.275 member


Reged: 30/04/03
Posts: 60
Loc: United Kingdom
My new baby
      #14372 - 06/05/04 05:06 AM

Well here she is, my new baby.



For those of you who didn’t catch my first posts regarding going down to take a look at this rifle and the decision to buy, she is an A Hollis but most probably built by H. Leonard. The H. Leonard serial number is 1424 which is I believe 182 rifles later than Rusty’s and the A. Hollis serial number is 15113 which is I believe 15 rifles later than Rusty’s. This I believe puts it at a similar time of manufacture of between 1910 to 1912.

She is in 450/400 3” has 26” barrels, a deep dark wood and in good general condition considering her age.

I had the bores slugged and she has the larger .411” bore rather than the .408”.

I am going to have a mould made so I can cast my own bullets and wondered what diameter bullet to go for. Some have advised up to .002” over bore and some to go for something around .410”. Also I was advised to go for a .416” gas check which would be swaged on through a sizing die. There seems to be a lot of differing opinions, unfortunately most of these opinions are from those who haven’t actually reloaded for this calibre although they have reloaded and cast bullets for other large calibres. Has anyone actually done this in this caliber, what do you think. Does it need a gas check and do you get leading/fowling problems pushing lead bullets up to around 2100fps.

The other question I have is in regard to the hardness of the lead required and getting consistency of the alloy without batching large quantities.

Sorry this has turned out more a reloading post than a double rifle post.

Regards

Phil

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cchunter
.375 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 744
Loc: Kinna, Sweden
Re: My new baby [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #14373 - 06/05/04 05:47 AM



Something went wrong with the photo in my computer anyway, so if it is the same for others here it is!

That is really a pretty baby Phil. Dont worry about the reloading questions you have should be in the wrong forum. There are other that are doing much worse.

I hope you will be happy with your double, it's a fantastic toy to have - I played with mine today at lunch and nine hours later I am still smiling.....

--------------------


Christer Hansson

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Phil_in_the_UK
.275 member


Reged: 30/04/03
Posts: 60
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: My new baby [Re: cchunter]
      #14375 - 06/05/04 06:26 AM

you know one day, maybe just one day, I will manage to post pics that actually work ok.

Many thanks Christer

Regards

Phil

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Spring
.300 member


Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 104
Loc: Georgia
Re: My new baby [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #14379 - 06/05/04 07:18 AM

Do you need that bottle of Jack Daniels after you shoot it??? Or is before!

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: My new baby [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #14382 - 06/05/04 09:44 AM

Phil

You have touched on a subject that often gets overlooked when reloading for old English Double Rifles - BORE SIZE.

There is no doubt that there was some variation in bore size when they left the factory, but the ravages of time, corrosive primers etc, can result in even more variation.

Often, the rifling can look quite sharp owing to corrosion simply removing metal wholesale, not just showing up a pits, as is commonly assumed.

In .400 cal. I have seen bore diameters that run from .408" to .416", and there is no guarantee that both bores will be the same! One reason why some doubles just won't regulate (did you slug BOTH bores?).

Woodleigh make two bullet diameters for 450/400 to cover this (.408" and .411").

If you are looking for low cost "plinking" loads, have you thought of using .41 cal pistol bullets? Speer make 200&220 grain soft point (look a bit funny!), but I have got them shooting in a number of rifles, double and single.Point of impact is usually a bit high though.

With Cast Lead, you could start off simply with Wheel Weight alloy - usually works, although I have no personal experience with 450/400 to draw on.

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Rusty
.333 member


Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: My new baby [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #14385 - 06/05/04 11:28 AM

Phil, Congratulation on a beautiful Rifle! Well done sir!

I am enclosing an email address of a double rifle shooter/reloader 450#2 NE. He has extensive experience loading for the 450/400 3 inch using lighter bullets and maintaining regulation! His email addy is NE450No2@aol.com Please contact him and tell him I sent you! (He Killed a coyote with a 9.3X74R scope double Chapuis in March. Hit the animal with both barrels at a witnessed and lasered range of 270 yards.)

There is also another source of bullets. Hawk Bullets .

They make the .411 in 3 differant jacket thicknesses. Hawks are much softer than Woodleighs and require a bit less powder to achieve the same velocity.

Let me know if I can be of assistance!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: My new baby [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #14395 - 06/05/04 01:29 PM

Phil that is nice. Since I can't say I've reloaded for that caliber, generally, most cast bullets demand at least .001"-.002" over bore to work. It also depends on how hard the cast bullet is out of the mold. Another consideration is how deep or sharp is your rifling in your barrels. I doubt you'll need gas-checks as you won't be driving it too fast anyways.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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Phil_in_the_UK
.275 member


Reged: 30/04/03
Posts: 60
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: My new baby [Re: 475Guy]
      #14438 - 07/05/04 05:36 AM

One of the problems we have here in the UK is the strange and somewhat contradictory nature of some of the laws relating to the ownership and use of firearms.

The problem I have with this double, indeed any double of any reasonable sized calibre is that you have to have a reason to possess it. Mine is use overseas and to zero etc on a recognised range passed as suitable for that class of firearm and not for hunting any of the deer in the UK as it is considered unsuitable. Now here is the problem, I am not authorised nor will anybody for the foreseeable future be authorised to use or possess expanding ammunition unless you get authorisation to shoot live game within the UK. For example I have authorisation to use my 30-06 for deer, foxes and goat so have permission to use and own expanding ammunition.

This is the main reason I needed to know the rifle would regulate with commercially available ammunition as I can have it shipped anywhere in the world ahead of me or met and handed over at the point I leave the UK.

This is a real pain, I therefore can use and load the Woodleigh steel jacketed solids but not the softs or indeed any of the Hawk bullets. This is why I want to cast my own lead solids, don’t want to put too many steel jacketed solids through her.

475Guy, is 2100fps not to fast, it would simplify things if i didnt need the gas check.

There are positive sides to hunting and gun ownership in the UK. I can hunt six species of deer every day of the year except Sundays and can take as many deer as I see fit. I usually take around 40 roe a year, a few reds and a few sika and hunt most Saturdays. All of my friends and family have full freezers. Shame, I would have enjoyed the challenge of hunting roe close up with the double.

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: My new baby [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #14443 - 07/05/04 09:02 AM

Running at 2100 f/s you'll probably need to have 18-22 Brinnell hardness cast bullets so that you don't lead the barrels. The gas check is usually used when a flatbased cast bullet won't work in any guise. Hope you find the right load.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: My new baby [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #14447 - 07/05/04 11:04 AM

And we reckon we are doing it tough in OZ!!

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: My new baby [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #14458 - 07/05/04 03:19 PM

Phil

If you had a club like the Big Game Rifle Club in the UK (maybe you do?) and it specifically includes double rifles in its target shooting activities - would that help?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Phil_in_the_UK
.275 member


Reged: 30/04/03
Posts: 60
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: My new baby [Re: NitroX]
      #14491 - 08/05/04 03:27 AM

John

We do have organisations that defend our rights, to name a few of the main players, the British Association of Shooting and Conservation, The Express Rifle Association, The Sportsman’s Association, The British Deer Society and the Countryside Alliance. There are a few others and to be honest, without them we wouldn’t be doing any shooting here in the UK.

All I will say is support your local groups and associations where you can and watch your backs. They banned pistols here in the UK, it cost Billions and there are now many more times the number of hand guns on the streets and unprecedented levels of gun crime, higher than at any time in our history. It gives one the feeling of what will be banned next, logic appears to form no part in the legislation process. Watch your backs everyone, you may be very surprised, don’t be complacent, it may happen to you.

Sorry for getting rather serious there.

Regards

Phil

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: My new baby [Re: NitroX]
      #14499 - 08/05/04 09:48 AM

Nitro - The Express Rifle Association (ERA) were holding shoots (at the Bisley Range?), but seem to have fallen into a hole, probably because ownership of centrefires is so difficult in the UK.

Perhaps Phil could give us an update on their activities?

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: My new baby [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #14503 - 08/05/04 01:02 PM

Phil,

My understanding of the situation in England from a couple of the blokes on AccurateReloading is that you can own a 600 Nitro etc but will be restricted to range use or overseas.

For game shooting within England a 375 will be about the upper limit you can get. Does that sound right. I wonder how a 375 Ultra or 378 Wby would be. Might be OK as gov't authorities seem to go by bore size rather than cartridge size.

I think Australia will follow down this path.

Mike

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Phil_in_the_UK
.275 member


Reged: 30/04/03
Posts: 60
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: My new baby [Re: Mike375]
      #14517 - 08/05/04 05:07 PM

470Rigby

The ERA meet every few months or so, Sundays, at Minsterly ranges, next meet is 30th May, its a great place, has its own website and has a “running boar” facility if you need the practice, its about the best I have visited here in the UK.

http://www.minsterleyranges.com/

George Wallis of BASC who runs the Association has been off ill for a while so I am not sure if the meets are quite what they were but as far as I know, all is well.

As for centre fire rifle ownership being difficult, this I have not found to be the case. It seems it’s the silly little bits of legislation which makes there use restrictive. For example anything over the .375H&H is likely only to be authorized for target and overseas. Getting authorization to posses any of my present or past rifles has been no problem, indeed the Police licensing authorities I have found personally most helpful. However I believe others do and have had problems with there licensing authorities. It does seem to depend a little on where you live in the UK and of course the individual personalities you are dealing with. I believe it also depends on how many rifles you want of a particular caliber, you have to show good reason to possess, so wanting a few rifles of the same caliber may be a little difficult to justify unless like a friend of mine, a professional deer stalker who has a few rifles in .270Win. He “justifies” this as he has a high grade high precision rifle for his own use and a relatively inexpensive rifle for use by his clients, not such a disaster when it is “abused” by inexperienced first timers.

Mike375

As above, range use and overseas use only for the large bores. The .373H&H does appear to be the limit for deer use here in the UK; I have authorization on my license for a .375H&H for deer use but haven’t found just the right rifle to fill that gap on my license yet. As for the 375 Ultra or 378 Wby, I don’t know of anybody who has these but would assume OK as the authorities do seem to go by bore size.

Reading the press and comments regarding your countries direction, it would seem “they” are “closing in”. Support your associations and get everyone who does not belong to one of the associations to join, the bigger your voice the more notice will be taken.

Sorry this has all got a bit gloomy and political; I was only introducing my new baby!

Regards

Phil

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