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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
.45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear
      #142865 - 29/09/09 01:35 PM

Well, Sonny scored and tested a new .45-70 load for me to-boot.

We hunted Saturday in the continued dry conditions with the logging roads choked in deep dust. Very poor tracking conditions, and the dogs ran hard but we came up...dry...

Long day:



My son hunted Sunday. I wasn't able to be with him, but I handed him the camera and told him to use it. The dogs got on a bear after a strong strike. The bear ran, naturally, down, down and more down, then at the bottom, treed.

The houndsmen wanted to pull the dogs and leave the bear as it was a nasty hike out, but sonny wanted the bear for the meat as he is a "near-penniless" college student, so they tied up the dogs and he shot it.

Rifle was my Marlin .45-70. I've used this rifle on deer, bear and range cattle using my old favorite 402 grain cast Hollow Point at 1640 fps. That load is a deep penetrator, and for this hunt we decided to work up a new load. Specifically, the Remington 300 grain Jacketed Hollow Point over a stiff load of IMR4198 for about 2050 fps. This is a fast load. I have seen some deer shot with the Remington 300 JHP at 1800 fps and it is one of the most decisive deer stoppers I've seen.

I decided to run the speed up in order to prevent the bullet from exiting the bear. A true "Houndsman's Load". The hound chasers around here, almost to a man, use the .444 Marlin since its 240's will not exit a bear. The load I worked up was meant to provide the same results with the 300 JHP.

In preparation, it was tested on the boards and jugs. At 2050 is a bomb, pure and simple. This performance was dramatic. Recovered weight of the bullet was 136 grains The bullet and two fragments of core were found in the 2nd jug. A jacket shard can be seen stuck in the rear of the first jug at right in the second photo.





The load performed as planned. My son got a shot straight on into the chest of the bear that was sitting on a branch sort-of like as if on a swing, maybe 50 or so feet up. The bullet struck the sternum, and then once inside, erupted. Sonny said the insides looked like they were run through a blender. He said the heart and lungs were literally mushed, pulverized. Like the bear swallowed a smoking Mills Bomb.

The pack out was long and he had the job all by himself, so kiddo skinned the thing in the hole and then boned it out, sewed up the meat in the hide and hauled it out in one hike.



Here is the hide. The critter went about 185 lbs, on the hoof, so-to-speak. He stands 6'2".



My son said he doesn't like the load. He wants a bullet to penetrate deeply so any reasonable angle shot can be taken. This load is a specialty load, and would work very well for houndsmen on smallish bear like ours I do believe, but I do not consider it a good all-round load for deer or elk, either. I do not believe it would be a very good all-round load for pig, either, tho for picked side shots at all of these critters it would no doubt drop them fast.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (29/09/09 10:36 PM)


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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: 9.3x57]
      #142869 - 29/09/09 04:16 PM

Good old 45-70! Can't wait for bear! Love the dog! I know I sometimes feel like he looks!

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"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #142875 - 29/09/09 09:40 PM

A 458 varmint load thats something for sure to use on the larger varmints. The 444/45-70 gets more and more common here, but most in the hands of the doghandler.

Not a good student? Are they not getting fed in school if they fail the tests?
Anyhow, it must be a great thing to see the next generation getting the taste for hunting.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: 450_366]
      #142878 - 29/09/09 11:03 PM

Ha!

Andreas: A little translation error there on my part. He does very well academically in school. Rather, he picked a meal plan this year where he pays for only a few meals from the school and he does most of his own cooking at his apartment, so he is stocking up on grub. This critter is winter's meat for him.

Next we see if one of us can connect with an elk which is going to be tough due to the shortened seasons and declining herd.

Interesting to hear the .45-70 and .444 are gaining ground in Sweden. For the close shots common to the dog handlers, no better gun exists IMO than a Marlin .45-70 especially on älg and when shooting my Lee cast bullet load. That load is the short-range equal of full power 300 grain .375 H&H Mag with Swift A-Frame bullets, penetrating at least as much or more. Perfect for the angled shots that might be presented.

I would NOT use this new Houndsman's Load on älg/moose. This new load penetrates shallow, and might not get very deep, or even deep enough on bigger animals. It should make a perfect cougar load, and as far as that is concerned, maybe a good leopard load, too, especially for the first shot from a blind. The load shot accurately and I think would make an effective cat load, though not for followups or lion. Again, on a side shot, it would be devastating on lion even, I'm sure, but I would NOT want to face a lion with only these in the gun. The Remington 300/2050 combination is an explosive combination.

Here is a pic my son took when he had just opened the animal up while butchering it down in the deep hole. You can see 1/2 of the rib cage was demolished by the shot. This bullet really let go. No exit wound.



Rod

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (29/09/09 11:07 PM)


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: 9.3x57]
      #142883 - 30/09/09 12:22 AM

Brings back memories - My bro's old Sharps, a shallow rifled barreled action Shilo he bought back in the late 70's, early 80's chambered for the .45 3-1/4" case. 300gr. bullets shot exceptionally well with 62gr. Re#7 for 2,100 or 2,200fps. I think the bullet was a 300gr. Sierra FN (I think but might have been a Hornady) and not a HP. He shot one moose with that load, close 85yard shot and the bullet punched a 5" diameter hole through the lungs, making a 1" exit hole out the far side. There was none of the explosiveness I expected, or shown in Sonny's bear with the RP bullet. The bullet I sectioned showed reasonable jacket thickness compared to the other 300gr. bulelts that looked more like pistol bullets. The next moose collected a 500gr. Hornady RN, driven by 110gr. 2F, then a few more with 460 and 500gr. cast bullets, all of which made 2" diameter tubes of damaged tissue the length of the moose and sacked them within 30 yards of impact. One observation I have made is that the heavy, slow moving bullets traveling lengthwise in the moose made the animals sick, in that they walked slowly after impact, sickly, heads down, whereas light, higher velocity bullets used on broadside shots make them dash as if frightened or stung. This is something I've noticed with modern rifles as well, where the dividing line seems to be in the .30/8mm. area.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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LarrysGrip
.224 member


Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Upstate, SC, USA
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: DarylS]
      #142886 - 30/09/09 12:56 AM

Sonny really did good. Sure you are proud to see him take after father. Thanks again for the interesting test and bear saga. Very cool night and morning here. Gives me the yen to go hunting. All the best to you and your family.

--------------------
Larry


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: LarrysGrip]
      #142922 - 30/09/09 01:22 PM

The load used by my son on the most recent bear is in effect a ballistic duplicate of the old .50-110 High Velocity load, variously listed as 2000 to 2200 fps with the 300 grain .50 bullet. I've always wondered about that load...

Supposedly it had a reputation for being a fast killer, but...no surprise here, NOT a deep penetrator. With a .50 cal bullet of the same weight as the .45 bullet from my .45-70, it would possess poorer sectional density and would require a stoutly contructed bullet for bigger game. I am about dead certain it would have been a deer annihilator.

Regardless, I think this .45-70/300/2050 load is a keeper for hound hunting our bear.

It would be nice to be able to set the gun up for the 300/2050 for following the dogs and in the event of a ground fight, and then have the gun also sighted for my heavy 402 cast Hollow Point bullet for really deep penetrating shots like those I've had to take thru tree branches.

Different weights require radically differently sight settings, so much so there is not enough travel on the sight elevator.

I think I have that whipped, tho, as I sighted the rifle for the 300/2050 with the stepped wedge and my personalized open irons, and then if the heavy weight is needed under the tree, I can drop the peep aperture in and screw it down for such shots.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: 9.3x57]
      #142952 - 01/10/09 01:25 AM

One 'help' I've found with the .45 rifles and different loads that give only a vertical POI change,is to use a duplex-type crosshair with a low power scope, like a 2X Leuy. With the one load zero'd on the hairs at 25 yards, load zeros on the plex, either the top one or the bottom one. I also have this sort of arrangment set up on my 9.3x57 - the 285 Privi's zero at 200 yards on the bottom plex and the 232gr. Norma Vulcans zero on the hairs, same range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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SharpsNitro
.375 member


Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: 9.3x57]
      #142954 - 01/10/09 01:54 AM

Interesting results. I have been using that Remington bullet for a several years for higher velocity 45-70 loads because it is pretty cheap.

Last year I was working up a 45-70 load for my single shot that pushed a Barnes 300gr TSX FB at 2150fps. The plan was to take that one to Africa for plains game but the rifle broke down right before the trip. This year I was playing with the same bullet in a 45x2.6", loaded to 458wm specs it was pushing 2740fps out of my 22" barreled Number 1. It's a flat shooting load, with a 50y zero it only drops 4.5" at 200y. The intended bear hunt hasn't happened yet to test it out though.

If you want to test this bullet let me know and I'll send you some. I still have a bunch that I have not loaded yet.

Edit

The TSX FB is the "spitzer" version of the bullet so its not good for use in tubular magazines.

Edited by SharpsNitro (01/10/09 03:34 AM)


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #143006 - 01/10/09 11:25 PM

SharpsNitro:

What have you killed with that Remington 300? How did it turn out? I'm curious, because it performs radically differently in my test media when started at 1500 fps {like the old .45-70 high speed load} and even at 1800. Past that and it really seems to let go. What velocities were you using it at?

As for the TSX, PM sent.

A question on that one; what is the lowest velocity recommended for it? The copper-solid-type bullets usually seem to require fairly high low-end impact speeds for reliable expansion.

This latter bit is timely, as that seems to be the dodge applied by Woodleigh with their Hydrostatic as posted by Gryphon; to a degree, the impact speed might be less important w/ the Hydro's if the bullet is designed to perform without expansion, that is merely by shape. Personally, I think Woodleigh is on to something, as one of the main criticisms of homogenous bullets is that they need high impact speeds to cause adequate expansion.

For high performance .45-70 loads, the Hydrostatic might be a real winner. For that matter, all of the "old timey" rounds like the .30-30 and .35 Remington might benefit by such bullets, too.

Here is Gryphon's post: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post143004

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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SharpsNitro
.375 member


Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143044 - 02/10/09 12:33 PM

9.3x57:

The only thing the Remington has been used on is paper. I don't know what velocity the TSXs need to open up; I'm interested to see what they do, I may have been lucky to have my 45-70 break down on me. Barnes does make a lever gun version of the 300gr TSX as well.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #143063 - 03/10/09 12:34 AM

Thought the claim was the X's expand down to about 1,700fps or even a bit lower than that in .45 cal. and down to 1,900fps in other calibres.
I used to load the 350gr. "X" in my .458 2" at 2,290fps and felt OK to 300 yards, as easy poke for moose/elk or deer/bear with that rifle due to the high BC. The bullet was exceptionally accurate with sub 3/4" groups at 100 meters. I suspect the 350gr. TSX should be similar. Never got a chance to use it on anything with those bullets, though. The 400gr. Barnes Old Style bullets are quite good ones, FN for lever guns and pointed for bolts or single shots. The 400gr. Barnes is also very accurate. My buddies 18 1/2" stainless Marlin gets 2,007fps with 49gr. Re#7 with the FN Barnes 400gr., no pressure signs at all. Cases literally will fall from the chamber - fired cases, in and out.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Maddog
.224 member


Reged: 15/06/05
Posts: 39
Re: .45-70 ""Lion Load"" + Bear [Re: DarylS]
      #143067 - 03/10/09 01:10 AM

Well, if you can still find them, the 300 gr. nosler partition can be loaded to the same specs as the 300 gr. rem, and should shoot to the same poi. Here is a load I have used in the past, and you can literally shoot any 300 gr. bullet, in it without fear of pressure spikes. The load is below max.

300 gr. bullet[nosler, rem, hornady, sierra, etc.]
WW cases
210 Fed. primers
51 gr. H4198
Lee factory crimp

Avg. velocity: 1950 fps out of my 18 1/2" Marlin Guide Gun

I used the Horn. FNHP for practice, and the nosler for hunting. The penetration on the nosler is awesome! I have used that load to take hogs, black bear, and 7 head of plains game in RSA last summer. Have only recovered 4 bullets from all the animals. )ne from a Kudu, and three from a Zebra. The rest were pass throughs.

maddog


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