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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Doppelbuchse Drilling - Maker Unknown - Help
      #127795 - 23/02/09 06:39 AM

Hello NE,

Yesterday we had an all-day snowfall of 6 to 8 inches (winter in Wisconsin). I didn't see any sense in firing up the snow blower and grabbing the shovel any sooner than necessary, if it was supposed to snow all day, so I thought while waiting for it to stop why not take some pictures of another piece I have that has been bugging me with regard to whom the maker may have been and the date of manufacture. I'm hoping some of you, who have more experience with these ID questions than I, can help me. As you'll see in the pictures it has the proof marks and chamber notations that most of us are used to seeing. Unfortunately the top rib is void of a maker's name. As to the year of manufacture I would normally assume that based on the 10/1 stamped on the underside of the barrels that the date would be October of 1901 but I was under the impression that the German makers didn't start stamping the dates on the barrels like this until much later. The gun looks like a later piece to me but who knows? The only form of possible ID that I can see is the initials "EF" that follow the serial number on the underside of the shotgun tube, forward of the forend lug, and on one side of the water-table. If you have any ideas please comment.

Thank you,

Marcus

























--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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Der_Jaeger
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: Doppelbuchse Drilling - Maker Unknown - Help [Re: Buchsemann]
      #127799 - 23/02/09 07:43 AM

I couldn't tell you the name of the maker, but whoever built it looks to have used a sauer action. A lot of the un-named guild makers built their guns on Sauer and Merkel actions. The only shame is that this beautiful piece was left unsigned.

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (23/02/09 03:09 PM)


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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Doppelbuchse Drilling - Maker Unknown - Help [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #127820 - 23/02/09 10:47 AM

Der Jaeger,

Thank you for your input. I have realized that I have left out a detail that may mean something, maybe not. At one time there may have been a makers name on the top rib. I have no idea when but at some time in this guns life someone carefully ran an end mill down the strip normally reserved for a makers name and removed it. Afterward they must have used some cold blue cover the white steel. I have seen this on other German guns and have wondered why in the hell someone would do that. The only guess that I have is perhaps the guy who took the gun out of the country (more than likely a US or Allied soldier) thought that the name on the rib was the original owners name and that somehow he'd get in trouble for stealing it; it's just a thought. Do you have any ideas about the date or who "EF" might be? I'm thinking the "EF" is an inspector’s mark but I'd like to hear what others think.

Regards,

Marcus

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Doppelbuchse Drilling - Maker Unknown - Help [Re: Buchsemann]
      #142242 - 18/09/09 10:32 AM

Is it a lightweight Doppelbüchs drilling or does it have a alloy frame? It is a post 1912, and pre-1924 minus the date stamp) example with the Nitro marks and mm designation for diameter. The script “E.F.” is either for Ernst Funk or Emil Funk and for now I guess the latter if it is a post WWI example. At the time, I would think Ernst was in more of a managing position while as a wild, wild guess, and if it is a lightweight frame it would be a very early example and it might have been an example by Emil for his master’s brief, but I can’t say for sure and may never. But the tubes/tube steel or both passed thru the Schilling forge in Suhl(the Schillings of Zella-Mehlis may have had the ability) and one of the Jaeger klan may have touched them.

Christoph August Funk was born in 1809, probably achieved the rank of master in 1834/1835 and started his company in 1835. In 1896 he may have been still working but Albert and Oscar were at the helm. This would have been about the same time Ernst Funk obtained the rank of master. At the start of WWI, Ernst & Oscar were the owners and post 1920, Ernst was the sole owner with Emil Funk more than likely employed there. Emil Funk is listed in 1920 as being a gunmaker and more than likely attained the rank of master at the end of WWI.

Meffert is sometimes credited with the development of the lightweight/Leichtmetal/Dural frame drillings with experimental models being displayed circa 1930 and examples being sold by 1933. But Funk was right there in the mix in 1933 offering lightweight drillings via a Siemens-Martin Spezial-Einsatz Stahl(electro-plating) process and I’m sure it was several years in the development.

Ernst Funk was F.W. Kessler’s son-in-law and Kessler offered a “Tip-Top” Blitz drilling that is similar to this example. Circa 1930, Ernst Funk purchased Thieme(Adolf) & Schlegelmilch(Friedrich Wilhelm) for his son Alfred Funk. Interesting that prior to this time Funk and Thieme & Schlegelmilch were at the same address. Sources give that Thieme & Schlegelmilch further developed the Anson & Deeley boxlock for drillings(on the Heym patent basis??) but also there are 1912 Christoph Funk adverts that tout advantages of a Funk refined A&D boxlock. So they may have been a joint effort or one’s advances in drillings was peddled by the other. I don’t know if any of the above made their own frame forgings, but I would guess that they sourced Sempert & Kreighoff or Heym. Heinrich Kreighoff was an apprentice at Reinhold/Reinhard Funk and that would be yet another connection in the network of Suhl gunmakers.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Doppelbuchse Drilling - Maker Unknown - Help [Re: ellenbr]
      #142259 - 18/09/09 01:27 PM

Raimey,

You have really made my day with your wealth of information. I'm actually kind of speechless at the moment in that it's hard to know where to start with all the questions I have about the many German pieces in my collection. Just for example, the names you have rattled off had me thinking about my Christoph Funk percussion Jaeger rifle (Circa 1830 -1840). Then there is the two Imman Meffert pieces, one a Dural frame Vierling (1938) and the other a Bockbuchsflinte (1928). There is also a very nice 1926 Thieme & Schlegelmilch Bockdoppelflinte.

Back to the subject piece:

The receiver is steel. The only clue I have to the approximate date of manufacture is the "Leg-O-Mutton" case that came with it. The case has a journal written in English (in ink that's very difficult to read) that starts with the underlined date of 1917. After that it lists by month and date the location and the game taken by the individual. For example the sixth entry reads: May 21st Adenau (Germany) one wild boar at 200. I can't make out if the 200 is in yards or meters. It certainly seems like a long shot if that's what it's saying.

Thank you again,

Marcus (Buchseman)

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Doppelbuchse Drilling - Maker Unknown - Help [Re: Buchsemann]
      #142265 - 18/09/09 03:41 PM

Marcus:

Ok then, there's very little chance it is Emil Funk's master example but it is odd that he finished the frame as well as assembled the tubes and fitted the tubes to the frame. Usually a separate person was sub-ed to do each individual task and their initials were a means of tracking payment for who did what. There's an engraver in Suhl that is a historian on engraving and possibly could give the engraver and maybe confirm the maker. I can PM or email you his contact info. But if Emil Funk did make it, then he must have been a master gunsmith by 1917.

On the Christoph August Funk, usually the tube maker's initials as well as the date was stamped on the underside of the tubes during that period.



Valentin Funk double rifle - 1844

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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Buchsemann
.333 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Doppelbuchse Drilling - Maker Unknown - Help [Re: ellenbr]
      #142300 - 19/09/09 01:41 AM

Raimey,

Please PM me the engravers contact information. I would appreciate it a great deal. I'm also very interested in the work you are doing to compile the information on the Austrian/Bohemian/German makers. I'll certainly want to see it when you feel it can be released.

With regard to my Christoph Funk Jaeger rifle, it has been a while since I had the barrel out but I don't recall seeing a date on the underside. I'll have to remember to check it out sometime. "CHRISTOPH FUNK IN SUHL" is in silver inlay on the top along with silver inlay scroll on the adjacent flats.

On another note have you by chance seen the "German Clamshell in .280 Ross" post in the "Double Rifle Photos & Archive" section of the forum? That piece has bugged me for a while with regard to who may have manufactured it. I bought it in late September of last year and have spent quite a bit of time researching on the Internet and corresponding with others since and haven't made any real progress. I've read the theories on clamshells with regard to the limited number of makers that probably produced them and then another much later from a rather well know gentleman, who was responsible for one earlier theory, saying they were probably all made by the Merkels. In your research have you found anything ... conclusive on the subject? My next step is to contact the New York Historical Society and try to track down the importer Edurtreg Company, New York. "BEST GERMAN MAKE ESP. MANUFACTURED FOR EDURTREG COMPANY, NEW YORK" is inlayed on the top rib. The first letter in each word appears to be yellow gold and the rest appear to be platinum.

I know all of this is getting off the original topic of the Doppelbuchse Drilling so please PM me. Once I have a clue as to who may have made the aforementioned double rifle I would like to update the original post for the other members that were curious as well.

Regards,

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Doppelbuchse Drilling - Maker Unknown - Help [Re: Buchsemann]
      #142305 - 19/09/09 02:58 AM

Marcus:

A better pic of the underside of the tubes may provide some answers but I seem to see a "HG" near the forend lug and that would be more than likely for Heinrich Greifelt/Greifeldt(?). The Greifelt klan goes back to circa 1800 with Heinrich Greifelt & Samuel Greifelt being master gunsmiths with Stephan and Stephan Christian Greifelt either joint owning a hammer forge or each owning one. I guess the Heinrich Greifelt of circa 1900 to be the grandson of the master gunsmith Heinrich Greifelt of the mid 19th century. It is so difficult to retrace the family trees because the same name were used in a direct line as well as to nephews and the like.

So the question as to the maker is a complex one. Would you want to know who assembled it or where the components were sourced? Post WWI you can bet your hat that the whole of Germany, and other gunmakers, sourced Suhl, which as a whole was a rucksack gun making firm. Post WWI, times were hard and the Suhl area craftsmen were on par with any in the world were located near 2 proofhouses, which was another plus. Rail entered in 1882 and just like here in the U.S. of A., commerce flurished. Very German guns were made of non-Suhl components and most likely Post-WWI, components weren't sourced, but instead longarms in the white or finished were sourced. That's why you see so many examples that passed thru the Suhl/Zella-Mehlis proofhouse. It was just a matter of economics. Your "clam-shell" has a metal buttplate and upon 1st glance I would say it was made circa 1900 but the marks tell a post 1912 proof date and it was probably made from on-hand components. I seriously doubt that any firearms merchant here in the U.S. of A. would have any German maker info. But a German sub-contractor's list would pretty much be a Rosetta Stone.


Here's my canned response from composed info & ideas.

W. Foerster was one of the few retailers of a sidelock Muzzleverschluss with a Purdey nose. The boxlock verion of the Muzzleverschluss surfaced sometime in the mid to late 1890s. I think W. Foerster to have been long departed by then and for the most part his examples were sourced from Suhl. Opinion among some European hunters was that Otto Selisch of Wiesbaden made the Muzzleverschluss frames and sold them in the white to the makers in Berlin. The more examples I see, the less I am convinced of this. Bernhard Merkel offered a version and supplied components to Heinrich Barella. E. Schmidt & Habermann offered a double rifle Model 555 with a “stabile action” for smokeless powder while Greifelt & Company’s “stable action(barrel bedding)” double rifle was a model No. 260 with Krupp steel tubes. Therefore, this all but confirms that the “Clam-shell” double rifle components were sourced from Suhl and I’m leaning toward Sauer having been for the forge source, like some others. I don’t know if a Sauer “Clam-shell” double rifle exists but stamp info from the underside of the tubes just may provide a clue. I've read of references to a Romer/Rohmer/Romerwerke which was noted a "the great forge" of Suhl. But that's as far as I've gotten. The gunmaker info is going to take a lot of time and researching additional gun makers with yeild more info of previous searches.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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