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PBR
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Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06
#142238 - 18/09/09 08:26 AM

I'm very interested in the Baikal double rifle.
What are your thoughts on the 45-70 versus the 30-06 in this rifle ???

Neutral points
- Both hit hard (though different) and are appropriate for most game world wide
- The accuracy (both barrels) in these guns are not especially great. Since your shot distance is limited, the long range capability of the 30-06 really doesn't come into play (though I suppose you can essentially have a single shot rifle if you have the first barrel zeroed)

45/70 pros
- Classic big bore
- Lighter weight by a pound

45/70 cons
- Expensive ammo
- Limited brands of ammo (the one brand you can find may not shoot very well)
- Limited brands of ammo (this gun is technically rated for standard pressure rounds)

30-06 pros
- Entry level shells are almost 1/2 the cost
- Good variety of ammo
- As noted, in theory you could zero your first shot and be ok to 300-350 or better with the first shot.

30-06 cons
- Doesn't have that big bore feel a double should have
- At close range, I don't think it quite has the bang / flop affect the 45/70 does

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Sgt_Brown
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: PBR]
#142344 - 19/09/09 01:05 PM

I have both. The 45/70 because I wanted it and the 30/06 because the Remington/Spartan is discontinued and those are the two calibers - they aren't going to do anything but go up. 45/70 ammo may be a little more expensive but 30/06 isn't cheap. 45/70 has more brushbusting "poop" at double rifle ranges while the 30/06's longer effective range is pretty much wasted. Both can be downloaded to plinking rounds and one can even go "old school" with black powder 45/70 loads.

One advantage of the 30/06 is that extra pound of weight. Add Remington "Managed Recoil" ammunition and you have a light-recoil close-range "whitetail whomper" for Momma, the Boy or even Grandpa.

They say the 45/70 is regulated with factory 405 gr softnosed bullets. That is probably the one 45/70 you can be pretty sure to find anywhere.

My $0.02 worth.

Tom

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tophet1
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: Sgt_Brown]
#142347 - 19/09/09 01:48 PM

Not owning a double yet, I voted for the 45-70. Why ? Because its no use having a double if it doesn't thump at both ends and make a big hole ?

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DarylS
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: tophet1]
#142361 - 20/09/09 01:33 AM

Even the weak by modern standards factory .45/70, 405gr. ammo does a wonderful job on NA game. Both Winchester and Remington bullets are designed for expansion at low velocties with thin jackets and pure lead cores. They do an amazing job - just check out 9.3x57's penetration tests in the Steer's head thread - the .45/70 factory 405gr. did as well or better in expansion and penetration than most rifle bullets - even to about matching the .375 with 300gr. Swift A-frames. It's performance is way out of proportion to it's 'paper' stats.
Yeah - I voted for the .45/70 - of course.

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Sgt_Brown
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
#142637 - 24/09/09 11:50 PM

Quote:

(Snipped)
just check out 9.3x57's penetration tests in the Steer's head thread - the .45/70 factory 405gr. did as well or better in expansion and penetration than most rifle bullets - even to about matching the .375 with 300gr. Swift A-frames. It's performance is way out of proportion to it's 'paper' stats.

Where does one find this thread?

Tom

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DarylS
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: Sgt_Brown]
#142641 - 25/09/09 12:25 AM

I'm looking, Tom - perhaps if 9.3x57 sees this thread, he'll respond. I looked and couldn't find it either and I know it's here. What's amazing, is the .45/70, 405gr. HP Lee mould bullet outperforms the .375
Swift A-frames and the big bullet's only running about 1,650fps at the muzzle. This is an easy load to duplicate for the double .45/70, running typical pressures OK for an original weak actioned .45/70.

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
#142645 - 25/09/09 02:13 AM

Here ya go, fellas:

BTW, just shot another .45-70 test this morning. A real specialty load shocker. Stay tuned...

But for now,

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....00738787dcbb88e

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=1244

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....d042209c8b11d53

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....d042209c8b11d53

* Daryl: I'm not sure that load is OK for weak-action guns. I shoot it in my Marlin. OK there in mine, but I can't speak for anybody elses.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (25/09/09 02:25 AM)

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Alberta
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
#142647 - 25/09/09 03:22 AM

One small difference between the 2 guns is that the empties won't fall out of the 30-06, the extractors hold them captive. You have to pick them out and it is slightly annoying.

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: Alberta]
#142655 - 25/09/09 09:30 AM

My brain hurts trying to figure out what loads the Baikal .45-70 can take as I have read various threads here arguing this way and that. I'm no expert and frankly have no clue, but the LEE book lists, "FOR ALL GUNS IN GOOD CONDITION", a load that drives a 420 grain bullet at 1656 fps @ 17,700 psi.

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bonanza
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
#142660 - 25/09/09 11:34 AM

This falls into the silly world of DR nostalgia. The 30-06 is vastly superior to the 45-70 in every respect. It's like those people who would never own a .375 H&H mag double.

I would chose a 30-06 over a 45-70 for the Baikal and have a rifle that is much more lethal.

I used to have a Merkel .375 H&H and loved it. I only sold it to help fund a .35 WCF H&H double rifle.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: bonanza]
#142664 - 25/09/09 12:11 PM

Quote:

The 30-06 is vastly superior to the 45-70 in every respect.

I don't agree with this statement but would rather put it "The 30-06 is vastly more versatile to the 45-70". That I'd go with.

There are sort-of specialty applications where the .45-70 is, I believe, superior. I just shot a .45-70 test today I haven't been able to duplicate with the '06. I'll report on it soon, hopefully with meat pictures attached.

If I could only buy one rifle and the choice was between the .30-06 and .45-70, I'd pick the .30-06.

But that all-round gun would be a bolt gun, not a Baikal double...

But a double .45-70, if capable of handling stiff Marlin-type loads would be a very useful rifle around here.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
#142665 - 25/09/09 12:19 PM

Thanks for posting the urls, Rod.

Quote:

" This is an easy load to duplicate for the double .45/70, running typical pressures OK for an original weak actioned .45/70."

What I meant by the above statement, and should have clarified, is that you can duplicate that velocity (approx. 1,650fps) with a 420gr. bullet in the weaker actions, indeed, 1,700fps is available, with appropriate powders, of course.
I am currently shooting just such a load in my 35" bl. Sharps .45/60 (1.9" case), a 400gr. Jacketed at 1,750fps using benchmark with large BP firing pin, without any pressure problems. With full power black powder loads, it will show some primer cup movement due the angle of the large pin, however the smokeless load shows less expansion and no cup movement. This is a load I'd use in about any .45/70's, 2.1" case and should develop between 1,550fps and 1,600fps with the jacketed bullet. Cast bullets will give approx. 100fps more velocity for the same load. Hodgdon's Annual Manuals show the loads and pressures given.

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Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
#142666 - 25/09/09 12:32 PM

Quote:

you can duplicate that velocity (approx. 1,650fps) with a 420gr. bullet in the weaker actions, indeed, 1,700fps is available, with appropriate powders, of course.

Gotcha.

And that load of 420/1700 is a very powerful load, no ifs ands or buts.

There are circumstances under which I'd take it over a .30-06. I'd rate, as Daryl says, my Lee cast Hollow Point 402 @ 1640 fps to be the equal of any .375 H&H Mag load at short range regardless of what bullet the .375 is using and the .45-70 maybe better.

I will not say my load is the equal of a .458 Mag or any other true big bore Nitro Express because I don't think it is, but the equal or better of the .375, yes, again, at close range.

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DarylS
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: bonanza]
#142667 - 25/09/09 12:36 PM

Quote:

This falls into the silly world of DR nostalgia. The 30-06 is vastly superior to the 45-70 in every respect. It's like those people who would never own a .375 H&H mag double.

I would chose a 30-06 over a 45-70 for the Baikal and have a rifle that is much more lethal.

I used to have a Merkel .375 H&H and loved it. I only sold it to help fund a .35 WCF H&H double rifle.

I disagree with your first statement, Bonanza - the '06 will NEVER be as lethal and the .45/70 is - our course, that is your opinion, and this is mine. The .30/06 is a better long range platform, of course, for those who don't practise shooting at long ranges with their hunting rifles and out to 300 yards, the .45/70 will, given the appropriate projectile, work just fine, with better performance and faster killing on heavy game than the '06 every dreamed of. I am referring to bison hunting here, where the '06 has shown horrid results of up to 25 min. & 1/2 mile chases to kill with excellent bullets used and perfect shot placement, however blunt cast bullets from Marlins, Sharps and Trapdoors have anchored their buffalo within seconds and steps. The 'o6 just isn't popular for heavy game - witness the number of Alaskan guides who prefer it - haven't heard of any who champion the '06.

My hunting is close - out to 300 yards max and for that, the .45 cal. works just fine.(I actually prefer my 14 bore rifle to any others for dropping moose in their tracks)

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bonanza
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
#142690 - 26/09/09 03:08 AM

Ok,

Perhaps I jumped the gun. Both cartridges with the appropriate load and bullet, say the 45-70 Garret Hammerhead and a '06 with a woodleigh 220 RN are awesome killers.

I'll agree that a P+ 45-70 is way better stopper then the '06.

My gut felling is that a man will find a 30-06 double a lot more versatile (in the long run) than a 45-70. But my head says most will opt for the 45-70 big bore.

BTW, I'm a huge fan of the 458. I have a 1978 H1 tropical in .458 mag, a 500-450 DR, .45 long colt BlackHawk and a .45 Glock.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
#142696 - 26/09/09 04:21 AM

Daryl,
Your comments about .30-06 performance on bison is, in my opinion, 100% accurate, as I have repeatedly had similar results with big elk shot with even heavy 220 grain .30-06 rounds; even when shot through the heart, had them run up to around 200 yards. They simply don't do that when shot with .375 H & H, .416 Rigby, .450 NE! Elmer Keith was right, when he spoke about the .30-06 being inadequate for such purposes, for those of you who know what he said. Jack O'Connor, old ".270 Jack" as Keith called him, on the other hand, and his ideas about using the .270 for elk and most everything else, were wrong. It is even worse than the .30-06 for such large animals. I like both the .30-06 and .270, as long as they are used for what they will do best; same with .40 caliber and larger bores.

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PBR
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: doubleriflejack]
#142697 - 26/09/09 05:39 AM

I caused a stir, that's what I was hoping for

Having seen what both rounds can do inside 100 yards, the factory loaded 45-70 hollow points inflicts much more damage than the soft point 30-06. Both rounds leave an animal very dead, but I have never seen a 30-06 leave a baseball size wound channel with a deer's shoulder hanging on by a string. Performance wise, I do give the edge to the 45cal but in absolutly no way would I feel undergunned with a 30-06. I have shot deer and antalope in the neck and shoulder and they drop like rocks with fairly minimal damage done to bone.

As far as the 30-06 being more usefull in all sorts of other applications (particularly long distance), that would be true if you were comparing say a Marlin lever guide gun versus a Browning lever gun in a 30-06. I can clearly see the 30-06 winning that arguement.
But in a double gun, where distance is limited, the 30-06 does not become the clear winning and in fact might be the loser. Of course your still have the ammo availability issue. I know I can go to the store and find my favorite 30-06 round right this moment. I'm not sure if the same can be said for the 45-70.

As a prevouis poster said, there is a lot of nostalgia associated with a big bore double barrel and therefor the 45-70 "almost" has to be given the nod. I am thinking the poll really went in that direction.

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: PBR]
#142717 - 26/09/09 09:39 PM

Quote:

I caused a stir, that's what I was hoping for

Having seen what both rounds can do inside 100 yards, the factory loaded 45-70 hollow points inflicts much more damage than the soft point 30-06.

Factory 300HP's in the .45-70 run about 1800 fps, are easy to shoot and do, repeat, do create very impressive performance on deer. My brother has shot a number of deer with the factory "lites" and they are decisive.

We are headed out right now after bear with a .45-70 300 grain running 2050 fps. Will report, but have tested this in the boards and jugs and got rather interesting performance.

One observation about the .45-70 I might make is that different loads shoot to wildly different POI in my gun. This might seem like a disadvantage, but might be an advantage to those trying to get a double regulated.

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DarylS
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
#142728 - 27/09/09 03:09 AM

While I like and prefer the .45 cal to the .30 - I still would not feel undergunned on most NA game with an '06. I've used one and know it's capabilities - I just prefer the larger hole.

I would never use one of the 300gr. factory .45/70's on any game as I handload everything I shoot - have to handload most of what I shoot & prefer cast bullets where I can.

I think .45/70 big game bullets start at 350gr., as in the Hornady RN and FN, although the newer Nosler Partition 300gr. certainly has shown well on a variety of game and penetration tests.

The .30/06, for me, is a long range deer ctg. with 165gr. bullets running 3,000fps. For heavy game, I prefer larger bullets - period, and buffalo ctgs. start at .366" and rapidly get larger.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
#143370 - 09/10/09 11:42 AM

This post is not aimed at anyone in particular, but everyone on this thread in general!

This is one of the most missinformed threads I have ever read. "the 45-70 out classes the 375 H&H!" "the 45-70 is a brush buster!" "the 45-70 is more deadly than a 30-06!" "The Biakal is regulated with (you name one) bullet!"

#1 The 45-70 couldn't hold a light for the 375 H&H to run by!with 180 gr bullets the 30-06 comes much closer to the 375 H&H than the 45-70!

#2 There is no such thing as a brush buster, even a 500NE with a 570 gr bullet will be deflected if it hits anything before it get to it's target.

#3 The 45-70 is not the killer a 30-06 is, and never will be. It is a fine cartridge for what it was designed for, shooting Indians from a trapdoor Springfield cavelry rifle, but sorely lacking on anything that might kill you back bigger than an Apache.

#4 The Biakal is not regulated with any bullet. It comes with an adjustable regulation, and is only proofed to under 20,ooo psi chambered for 45-70, but proofed to 48.000 psi chambered for 30-06.

The Biakal would be a nice little canoe rifle so that if you capsized the canoe and lost it $900 will get you another one. The best use of this plateform is to buy it chambered for 30-06 and yank the barrels out of it, and replace them with a pair of 1-10" twist .308 barrels turned to the same configuration as the ones coming out of the rifle, and chamber it to 30-30 win and regulate it with 150 gr Nosler spitzer Partitions, loaded up to around 2300 fps and hunt deer with it!

If you want a double rifle for anything that bites back buy a real double rifle, chambered for anything from 375 H&H flanged to 500NE and be done with it! The Biakal double rifle will not take Full loads made for the 1895 Marlin, or the Guide gun, and with the loads it is designed for it is weakling, Period!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DUGABOY1]
#143372 - 09/10/09 11:56 AM

Dugaboy, I can only speak to the part of your rant I think was aimed at me, but if you had shot my .45-70 load and the .375 in game and done extensive testing as I have, you would speak differently. Both by test and when shot in game, the Lee 402HP in a heavy load is no "normal" .45-70 bullet. I've shot enough game and done enough testing with both to stand by my statement.

Obviously you have no experience with it.

As for brush busting, I basically agree with you, except by test and in the field I have seen heavy bullets kill where light frangible ones broke up on scrub. This is not to state that I trust in "brush busting", but merely to state the obvious; a standard-construction 100 grain .243 bullet may come apart in shards in brush that only smears a heavy .45-70, .458, .500 Nitro, etc bullet. I lost an impala to a .375 cal 300 grain Hornady that went to pieces on a small tree I didn't see so I am not going to say ANY caliber is brushproof. You and I basically agree there.

Both the .30-06 and .375 H&H are more versatile cartridges than are the .45-70, obviously. The .45-70 in heavy loads is yet a close range proposition. The .375 H&H is not limited to the ranges the .45-70 is.

The .45-70 is not a .458 Win, Lott or Watts Mag. It is not a .500 Nitro. It is not a 30mm Bofors.

It is, with heavy loads and select bullets, the equal of the .375 H&H Mag on game at close ranges.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (09/10/09 12:56 PM)

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bwananelson
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
#143374 - 09/10/09 12:36 PM

45 70 not a killer tell that to millions of buffalo on the american plaines how soon history is forgotten i dont care dead is dead be it a 22 or a nuclear bomb. or are there degrees of dead 22 have killed plenty of deer is it a deer rifle no.shooting into the brush is not a good place to shoot through to begin with.there is no question about it if it died it was a good bullet and caliber,sorry

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
#143375 - 09/10/09 01:36 PM

Quote:

Dugaboy, I can only speak to the part of your rant I think was aimed at me, but if you had shot my .45-70 load and the .375 in game and done extensive testing as I have, you would speak differently. Both by test and when shot in game, the Lee 402HP in a heavy load is no "normal" .45-70 bullet. I've shot enough game and done enough testing with both to stand by my statement.

Obviously you have no experience with it.

....................

you assume, and you know what they say about assumption! I was probably shooting game with bothe the 45-70, and the 375 H&H before you were born!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DUGABOY1]
#143376 - 09/10/09 01:40 PM

Your cagey answer removes all need to assume.

As I said, you have never shot a single head of game with the .45-70 stiff-loaded with the Lee 402HP.

Try it, and you'll post a recantation of your snide remarks.

I believe you are honest enough to at least do that.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (10/10/09 12:00 AM)

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crkennedy1
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
#143384 - 09/10/09 05:39 PM

I too own both guns and yes, I too voted for the 45-70. Life's just too darn short to be practical!

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DOUBLE or NOTHING

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