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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #143685 - 14/10/09 10:56 PM

Is the osr problems coming from older steels or thin barrels?
Is it only on vintage english guns, or are there any continental ones having the same problem?
Are there any pictures on one with the split from solder problem or even hard to see on picture any with the rifling showing on the "wrong" side of the tube. Otherwise its a true yeti

I have a m98 with the boltface taken down for a rimmed cartridge, i would love taking an old 458 barrel from a old winchester or similar and run a few copper studs thru it to see if it can be made to accour on purpose.

So that once and for all it can be settled that it is a problem and what bullets will damage the barrels.

Untill then woodleight bullets sound quite good for my porpose, thats untill that lead ban finaly will strike upon sweden.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #143687 - 14/10/09 11:00 PM

Quote:

Oh, well. I guess Graeme Wright, the London gunmakers, Ross Seyfried, me, and all the guys I know that own doubles with visisble OSR are just Bigfoot kooks. LOL.



Nobody ever said you were kooks. Crackpots like me, maybe, but that just applies to your interest in shootin' and blastin' in general, at least in my opinion.

Your list of testimonials, etc, here is probably new to some, and I understand it is not exhaustive, but it a very good start. Thanks for posting. It puts some names and such to those who assert monos will cause damage, have seen it, etc. I know this isn't a "start" for you {it is old news to you}, but for those not familiar with the problem itself, it is a good start. I'm sure there's more.

Thanks very much.

One response I've read to some of what you've written is that some who vote against the use of mono bullets have business or other ties to "soft core" bullet companies, meaning, bluntly, as it goes, that their own self-interest does not involve the protection of doubles per se, but rather protection of some relationship {financial or otherwise} with a company that sells a product that competes with monos. Is that true in any case you are aware of?

Thanks for posting. This is helpful stuff.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (15/10/09 12:05 AM)

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 450_366]
      #143689 - 14/10/09 11:34 PM

Quote:

I have a m98 with the boltface taken down for a rimmed cartridge, i would love taking an old 458 barrel from a old winchester or similar and run a few copper studs thru it to see if it can be made to accour on purpose.

.



I think that sounds quite reasonable.

The guys here that have some of the older doubles could maybe give you the outside dimensions of the barrel so it is thin enough.

They can correct me if I'm wrong, but the condition has been reported in the shooting of very low numbers of bullets. 100 or less, correct fellows?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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450_366
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143693 - 15/10/09 12:14 AM

And perhaps get the mono companies to supply me with the bullets so im not down to only eating "knäckebröd" to finance the test.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 450_366]
      #143695 - 15/10/09 01:07 AM

I have no ties to anyone, but the heads of gunrooms at Holland and the ex regulator at Westleys have
both told me I will be nuts if I put any mono's down my gun (a new one) and I don't intend to try, best, Mike

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450_366
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #143697 - 15/10/09 01:21 AM

Quote:

I have no ties to anyone, but the heads of gunrooms at Holland and the ex regulator at Westleys have
both told me I will be nuts if I put any mono's down my gun (a new one) and I don't intend to try, best, Mike



Understanable thay will, if it did occour they are free from any blaim, but did they say why and give some instances on it happen with their guns?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #143702 - 15/10/09 02:42 AM

I've discussed this with a number of folks at Holland's over the years, Winks, Wilkin and others, and can confirm that. Don't know the fellow from Westley. I've also discussed it with quite a few others in the London trade and have gotten the same answer.

9.3, I would highly recommend anyone interested in this issue to get a copy of the new (third) edition of Graeme's book, and read Chapter 13 carefully. It's the best discussion I've seen of DR barrel damage issues anywhere. Graeme is a real sharp guy, a DR nut, and knows everyone in the trade worth knowing. He covers some of his discussions with Holland's about OSR. For anyone with a double rifle, I consider it required reading.

I have easy access to several doubles with OSR. I'm going to TRY to photograph it. I'm doubtful.

As for a test barrel min wall thickness (I'll admit I don't see much need, as there are lots of rifles out there with OSR), I'd suggest a min wall of the thinnest in new guns. The min wall in current Chapuis 9.3X74R doubles (I've measured a number) runs around .078".

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500grains
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #143706 - 15/10/09 02:55 AM

Quote:

I have no ties to anyone, but the heads of gunrooms at Holland and the ex regulator at Westleys have
both told me I will be nuts if I put any mono's down my gun (a new one) and I don't intend to try, best, Mike



As usual, the gunmakers misunderstand bullet design and thus classify all monos as being the same which they are most definitely not.

If you fire a Barnes X or banded solid down your double, it will slightly and temporarily bulge the barrel as the bullet travels down the barrel. This is because the hardness of the bullet material prevents it from obturating. The same is true of a Woodleigh lead-core steel lined solid, although they are not quite so bad. Shooting any of these bullets in a double of any age, but especially a vintage gun made form soft steel, should be minimized in my opinion. If you speak with the gentlemen who regulate newly-made British doubles, you will find that they regulate with Woodleigh SOFTS. Then they fire 2 Woodleigh solids to see where they hit and they are done. So even the regulators minimize use of very hard bullets like steel-lined solids.

A properly made monolithic bullet, such as the North Fork flat nose solid or the GS Custom flat nose solid, uses very thin driving bands to engage the rifling, but the shank of the bullet is smaller than the lands of the rifling. This allows the bullet to engrave on the rifling with very little pressure. And it is not necessary for the bullet to obturate because the driving bands easily deform into the grooves behind them. Thus the bullet does not bulge the barrel as it travels from one end to the other.

Contrast that to the Barnes banded solid and the Barnes triple shock bullets which have really thick bands and will still slightly bulge the barrel as the bullet travels down it. GS Custom and North Fork solids are actually much kinder to your double than Woodleigh steel-lined solids.

As for OSR, I have seen it.

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500Nitro
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 500grains]
      #143707 - 15/10/09 02:58 AM

500grains

Agree with what you say, however I am just not willing to try,
especially on an Old DR.

It's an expensive mistake !!!

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DarylS
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 500grains]
      #143709 - 15/10/09 03:22 AM

Quote:


If you fire a Barnes X or banded solid down your double, it will slightly and temporarily bulge the barrel as the bullet travels down the barrel. This is because the hardness of the bullet material prevents it from obturating.



I'm confused, OBTURATE means to "shorten in length and expand in diameter".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
      #143710 - 15/10/09 03:23 AM

All this OSR bickering has what do do with picking between a .30/06 or .45/70 Baikal?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 500grains]
      #143713 - 15/10/09 03:47 AM

Quote:

As usual, the gunmakers misunderstand bullet design and thus classify all monos as being the same which they are most definitely not.



Dan:

We've had this discussion before. In my view, the problem is that's never been proven. The same problem exists with all mono makers. They don't want to spend the money for the R & D for their products. They want the customer to do their R & D for them in the customer's expensive double rifles.

Double rifles are double rifles. MOST of them in use today pre-date WWII. As many others have discovered, that really doesn't matter, as new rifles have been damaged too. If some mono maker wants to sell his product for use in double rifles, then he should bear the cost of conducting real R & D before putting them on the market. To wit: buy 10 double rifles that represent a cross section of the rifles in the marketplace - new, old, and in between. Carefully measure the bores, and have the barrels carefully inspected by an outside expert DR barrelmaker for OSR. Or perhaps have them all perfectly re-struck and polished. Fire 1000 rounds of the product through each, then re-measure and have them re-inspected by the barrelmaker for OSR and other damage beyond normal wear, and have him write his report. NOT ONE OF THESE MONO-MAKER ENTERPRISES HAS EVER DONE THIS. If they had, we'd have heard about it, loudly, and would never hear the end of it. They all claim that their bullets can't cause damage to DR barrels, but the damaged rifles don't lie. Such claims without the makers, at a minimum, conducting the test regimen that I've described, are a bald-faced lie.

"Oh, but we can't be expected to do that. Double rifles are expensive and we don't have that kind of capital." Well, gee. It costs money to enter some markets and do so in an honest manner. If you can't afford it, don't do it.

I'm with Nigel on this one. Theory is nice, but I've already been a test subject on this one and got fucked, so I'm not interested in mono maker's theories anymore, nor am I interested in testimonials or other anecdotal "evidence". I want to see controlled, monitored tests conducted at the maker's expense in a battery of the maker's real double rifles. It will never happen.

Haven't seen you post in a while, Dan. Good to hear from you. Hope you're well.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #143725 - 15/10/09 04:50 AM

500grains makes some good points but it took me quite while to get past that last sentence. I kept getting distracted by the cutie in his sig. line..

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 500grains]
      #143728 - 15/10/09 05:09 AM

Quote:

If you speak with the gentlemen who regulate newly-made British doubles, you will find that they regulate with Woodleigh SOFTS. Then they fire 2 Woodleigh solids to see where they hit and they are done. So even the regulators minimize use of very hard bullets like steel-lined solids.





So the problem isnt new, only that they used the "hard" bullets every time with monos?
Now this starts to sound like some usefull information concerning osr.

I recon this problem is accouring more often as the bore gets larger? How manyn 9,3mm are there out there with osr?
Now that german stopped the lead bann test, not many will be fired over there, but if they would all those combos like mine with strawpipe chaped barrels would have gone bad.
But is there anyone here with a drilling or combo with osr?

PS. Il guess the mod is out hunting or something as this thread has bona bananas.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 450_366]
      #143731 - 15/10/09 05:39 AM

Daryl, the issue arose because Duggaboy brought it up related to your handloading data. I believe he was concerned that somebody might take the data froma book, use the mono bullet and use it in a Baikal. I think that is a legitimate concern since somebody might want to use monos in .45-70, maybe '06?

Thanks for the issues brought, gents.

500grains, the issue you bring up has actually been addressed by Barnes who state they have used strain gauges and determined that no expansion of the barrel takes place.

If it does, as you point out, hard steel jacket solids probably do it, too.

This is the point possibly 450366 can address in his test which if he can do it.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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500Nitro
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143732 - 15/10/09 05:56 AM


I know Woodleigh got a 458 barrel and did some tests using a gauge to see the effect of bullets (his I think) on the barrel.

However strain gauge / expansion of the barrel or whatever
is fine, but it only needs to happen ONCE for OSR to occur.

So you might fire 30 or 300 rounds but the rifling only needs to push through once and that's it.

The other problem is the ribs and causing these to seperate
- I think it was a Chapuis - 400NitroExpress knows more - where it was repaired and then it did it again and the factory told the owner to stop using mono's.


At the end of the day, I and others own expensive guns, good DR bullets are readily available - be it Woodleigh, Hornady or others - so personally I just can't see why people push this mono thing with all the inherant / possible risks associated with it.

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500grains
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #143735 - 15/10/09 06:26 AM

Quote:

500grains

Agree with what you say, however I am just not willing to try,
especially on an Old DR.

It's an expensive mistake !!!



I don't blame you. Stick to Woodleigh softs and the old double will be fine.

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500grains
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143736 - 15/10/09 06:29 AM

Quote:



500grains, the issue you bring up has actually been addressed by Banres who state they have used strain gauges and determined that no expansion of the barrel takes place.




Barnes may have done a test, and I cannot comment on it. But I can comment on both vintage doubles getting OSR apparently from their bullets, and new doubles having the solder break apparently due to their bullets. Has someone sued and proven this in court? Not that I am aware of. Has it happened in a scientifically controlled environment? Not that I am aware of.

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500grains
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #143737 - 15/10/09 06:31 AM

Quote:




Haven't seen you post in a while, Dan.



Well, another forum had me detained in a FEMA camp, but I managed to escape....

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500Nitro
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 500grains]
      #143742 - 15/10/09 07:12 AM


500

Very hard to prove in court.

Plenty of good bullets out there without having to resort to mono's s the event should never occur if people use what we know works already.

I know people like experimenting ......... LOL

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 500grains]
      #143743 - 15/10/09 08:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Stick to Woodleigh softs and the old double will be fine.



500G:

Are you saying no solids {FMJ's} shouldn't be used at all?

Your previous post seemed to indicate the possible danger of using Woodleigh solids.

I know I have tried some "kitchen-table" experimenting; trying to resize .375 North Forks, Hornady steel FMJ and Barnes TSX down to 9.3 as I do with manyother bullets.

No dice on the Hornady FMJ and Barnes. They both seemed to take about equal amounts of grunting {technical term} to get them stuck in the die...

The North Fork went thru like corn thru a goose.

You are right about them at least in my experience, their ribbed surface resizes much easier.

My feeling on this subject is that there are severa TYPES of damage that may occur to a double. They may have a variety of causes, and certain bullets may cause one or more type of damage. Heckm even the mere shooting of MANY Woodleigh softs I suppose can wear out a barrel, just like any other rifle. Obviously you don't just spin the tube off and spin a new one on, so to speak, with a double like you do with a bolt gun.

As for "rifling" showing on the outside of the barrel, I have a couple theories, one of them related to bullets, one of them not. It is hard to imagine a slightly undersize bullet causing even spiral effect on the outside of the tube, but possibly other causes might. I have experienced a could similar phenomena occur in knifemaking.

450366 asks a VERY good question. Many combos have VERY thin rifle barrels. Anybody seen OSR on them?

400: Have you ever seen OSR appear on a newly blued barrel, or does it only show up on the original finish? Is the finish worn on OSR barrels?

As for the OSR: are the interior dimensions of the bores changed evenly? Have you slugged an "OSR" barrel before and after it occured?

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 Qn for 400Nitroexpress?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #143747 - 15/10/09 09:31 AM

400 {or others who might know}:

Can you please provide a specific list of the names of double rifle makers that warn against the use of monolithic solids or Barnes solids?

I actually need the names of the companies.

PM me if you like.

Thanks.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (15/10/09 09:34 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 Qn for 400Nitroexpress?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143749 - 15/10/09 09:38 AM

Quote:

400 {or others who might know}:

Can you please provide a specific list of the names of double rifle makers that warn against the use of monolithic solids or Barnes solids?

I actually need the names of the companies.

PM me if you like.

Thanks.




Holland & Holland

Chapuis - I think based on reading the posts of the owner who TWICE broke the ribs.

Edited by 500Nitro (15/10/09 09:39 AM)

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9.3x57
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 Qn for 400Nitroexpress?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #143752 - 15/10/09 11:16 AM

Any other companies warning against the use of monos?

Has anyone ever seen OSR in a small bore rifles? Or actually, anything other than a big bore?

Anyone seen OSR in a .303?, 8x57JR, 9.3x74R, etc?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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bwananelson
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Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 Qn for 400Nitroexpress?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143757 - 15/10/09 12:58 PM

i made it a point to ask every double dealer,barnes bullets at the shot show and sci no one stated monos were bad i thought we covered this last year.i was at the shot show 4 days and sci 4 days and stopped at every double dealer and maker.but i guess this will never be settled,i thought it was agreed not in old doubles with a different stell than our modern day guns.hum some things never change

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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