Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | >> (show all)
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26860
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
      #143556 - 13/10/09 04:13 AM

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Cor-Bon 405-grain PEN solid on the left was recovered after penetrating both shoulders of a Cape buffalo bull and both shoudlers of a cow standing seven yards beyond. The bullet on the right was recovered after striking the buffalo in the rump, then penetrating lengthwise taking off the top of the heart and lodging in the brisket.



Dugaboy - what part if THIS didn't you understand?????

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
PBR
.275 member


Reged: 21/08/09
Posts: 51
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143557 - 13/10/09 04:18 AM

Quote:

The 100 yard accuracy potential of some of these guns {by report, not by my experience since I don't have any} seems to indicate, frankly, that the guns are best used at 150 yards or less...regardless of caliber, the accuracy being the limiting factor for big game.

In light of that, I'd take the .45-70 any day over the option, the .30-06, in the Baikal. Meaning, IF I'm limited to 150 yard shots due to the accuracy of the guns, the .45-70 would get my nod every time.





From a performance perspective, I agree with that. (Ammo availability might be the more important issue though)

From reading threads on this forum, it appears that you can shoot at 100 yards and have the bullets hit 3-4" apart.




The max distance for the 45-70 is about 150 yards; that's what I would feel comfortable with.
Now the max distance for the 30-06 is 350-400 yards without having to hold over an animal.
The question is --- can you predict the shot from a Baikal at those distances?
If you know where to aim, you shouldn't have a problem (unless you get confused or hurried)

For example let's say a Baikal is the only gun you have and you want to hunt where shot distance can be far. One shot is 2" high at 100 yards and the other is 5" high at 100 yards. One is basically zeroed for 200 yards and the other is zeroed for I'm guessing 350 yards.

Another example, one barrel is 2" high at 100 yards and the other is dead on but 3" left. Let's say at 300 yards, you 100% know that second barrel would put you about 15" low and 9" left. You can kentuky windage that shot.

Perhaps I'm being a tad (lot) optomistic



Without a lot of experimenting, I would agree that 150 yards is about max for both rounds.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MrJudgeOC
.224 member


Reged: 03/06/08
Posts: 2
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
      #143560 - 13/10/09 04:37 AM

9.3x57,

Thanks for the welcome.

Most of my work has been at 25 and 50 yards because I've been experimenting with different sights at the same time. In fact, I haven't shot my 45-70 over 50 yards at paper. But I can ring the steel at 100 every time. The 45-70 put 350 grain Hornady's into less than 1 3/4" at 50, all day long. I've screwed that up by trying to work up loads with the 405 remington fp's. The 30-06 with hornady 220's is a less than 1" at 50 all day long. I can't seem to find my 100 yard targets right now but will look later. If I remember correctly, I was within 3" at a 100 from a rest. I haven't shot the rifle in quite a while.

I got the 30-06 as soon as they were available in early 2008. That's when I started lurking here. I hadn't been able to post here (don't know what the problem was) and just noticed I could, today! I got the 45-70 in the summer of 2008 and had stopped working with the 30-06 then. I've been posting on the AR forum periodically and have seen some members refer to them here. A search over there may come up with my targets and loads, I'm sure.

Mike

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
      #143561 - 13/10/09 04:39 AM

Quote:

Thanks Mike & 9.3x57, I wasn't questioning your intent.

As to fight - I cannot see why there even was one. The facts speak for themselves.
Now, if you don't handload and don't want to, factory ammo is avialable which brings the .45/70 up to date as Mike's loads show.
CorBon is only one of these new manufacturers of higher power .45/70's. I'd call them to find out about their pressure data on the loads they offer.



Daryl,you are right, if factory loads are used there is no problem with this little double rifle, but the custom plus-P loads offers by some small ammo makers are not safe in a double, especially a weak one.

This thread is about a double rifle,after all, and there is a misconception that chamber pressure is all that is a consideration for ammo to be used in any rifle.

First you never rely on the common pressure signs you get in a bolt, or lever action, when loading for a double rifle. Things like flattened primers, are a sign of "OVER PRESSRE" and do not show up till you go over pressure. In a bolt rifle this is OK, if you back off, but in a double rifle that may just be the load that blows the rifle off face. The 28000 PSI is absolute limit, not opperating pressure, and I assure you if a steady diet of that pressure is fed into the Baikal is WILL fail sooner or later. The other thing you guys seem to never state exactly what bullet is used in these loads. This is a real mistake when dealing with double rifles. The weight of the bullet is not all that counts here. Things like the mono-metal bullets with a solid shank that is groove diamether is a real mistake in a double rifle cheap, or expensive. Unless these bullets have pressure rings cut into solid shank the bottoms of which are slightly less than bore diamether, they are no suitable for use in a double rifle. Lead core bullets, or cast gas check are OK, but the type of bullet used in a double rifle is critical.

New or old cheap or expencive, the break-top double rifle is 17th century technology, and has it's own set of rules. When dealing with a double rifle you need to forget everything you have ever learned about loading, and load by double rifle rules. Just posting loads that you have not used in double rifles on a thread that is about a double rifle is irrsponcible! That is either going to get someone to damage a double rifle beyond repare, and or, injure himself. I don't think you want that to happen any more than I do!
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #143564 - 13/10/09 05:25 AM

Where did this with the monometal bullet come up? The only mono i can remember are of pure lead.
And why the need to educate about pressure signs in a double when no one has urged to go "max pressure". Flatend primers are a sign of pressures that is far from the 45/70 pressures that has been the subject here.
No one started to give load data before you went on a rampage on the 45/70 and said it wasnt even possible, the reason no bullet type is refered to in the data are becourse at this state its not important, the possibility to throw any bullet at the speeds that you say are not possible is the issue, now you try to tell us that ist not safe and all as it will perhaps throw the gun of face as its so worthles.

And you are trying to make it sound as the others on this tread has no or little idea of reloading,
in my book thats really bad manner.

Now at what speed does a 458 hard lead bullet equal the penetration of the 375HH with a solid.

Btw, the flattend primer is a totally crap way of telling of overpressure even on the rifles you recomend it on.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #143565 - 13/10/09 05:33 AM

PBR: You are thinking along the lines I am. It seems we both might let accuracy be the determining factor for a Baikal double. Again...Curl's suggestion comes to mind...

Duggaboy: Now we are getting somewhere. Your points about monometal bullets might well be considered by the buyer, if that is what he has in mind to shoot from the Baikal. Trouble, is, some {maybe all?} monometal bullet makers either approve of the use of or actually recommend their bullets for use in doubles. Meaning, if the shooter decides to call a bullet maker, he might well be told to go ahead and shoot them. Then he is faced with the need to decide between you and them. I'm not calling you a liar, or unknowledgeable, just stating what is fact.

This issue was discussed {argued} at length some time ago and I myself called Barnes for a full explanation from them about their mono bullets in doubles. Agree or disagree, their experience with many doubles and thousands of bullets left them still recommending them. I'd be interested to call them again as it has been a year or so {?} since I spoke to them. Yes, this issue is debated over and over. If you were in on that thread, you may remember that documentation/photos of OSR was stated to exist by a member but none was ever provided in spite of a "$200 Bounty" that was offered by another member for their provision.

It may be a moot point, however, since the bullets I've tested that equalled .375 H&H performance weren't mono's. Rather, in one case, it was the Lee HP cast bullet. Look, I don't sell the thing, I am just reporting what I've seen in my own test media and in game and range stock. I've shot through a thick pine bough to get to a bear, that bullet also shattering the front leg and exiting thru the top of the bear. That same bullet gave 24 inches of penetration through almost solid bone {head and neck vertebrae}, pulping the entire neck on a mean range cow that came for me. And I've seen 300 grain Winchester Silver-Tips refuse to shoot clean thru a wreck of an old broken-hipped cow and 300 Hornady's that stayed inside wildebeest and inside frontally shot deer and side shot elk. Yes, bullets matter, as on some of those shots the same charge pushing a 300 Swift A-Frame would no doubt do it, and...I bet the 402 Lee would also, along with causing a heck of a wreck inside the animal on its way.

Elmer Keith considered the 400/1800 recipe to approach the actual killing power of the .400 Jeffery and fully adequate for all game hunted in North America, big bear included. "Approaching" doesn't mean "equal", but it is close, and any sober way you look at it means more effective than a .30-06. I say about like the .375 H&H since my testing and the reports that are coming in more and more with it agree. Some would say it is superior to the .375 on close shots on heavy game. I say it is depending on bullets used. But then I'm trying to be conservative, here...

I don't think the originator of this thread was concerned with exclusively hunting heavy African game since he was also interested in the .30-06. If he is, I think everybody here would recommend some other calibers than the .45-70 or the .30-06. If he wants a close range gun for North America, either would do, but the .45-70, even choked down with loads in the 28,000 psi range, is the more powerful of the two.

Daryl's provision of load data is spot on the topic. The gist of the proofs he provides is that very powerful loads can be assembled with the .45-70 even at 28,000 psi, loads Elmer Keith considered "approached" the actual killing power of the .400 Jeffery.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
      #143566 - 13/10/09 05:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Cor-Bon 405-grain PEN solid on the left was recovered after penetrating both shoulders of a Cape buffalo bull and both shoudlers of a cow standing seven yards beyond. The bullet on the right was recovered after striking the buffalo in the rump, then penetrating lengthwise taking off the top of the heart and lodging in the brisket.



Dugaboy - what part if THIS didn't you understand?????



I stand corrected on the shoulder/rib shot by Bryan! The COR-BON 405 grain "PEN" solid is not listed on COR-BON website however. Are you sure it was a COR-BON bullet and how was it made, a Mono-metal solid, or cast?

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 450_366]
      #143571 - 13/10/09 06:46 AM

Gentlemen, I apologise for anything I said that caused anyone to have a stroke! I'll be leaving this website after this post.

Regardless of what Barnes says about their solids being safe in double rifles,I wouldn't expect them to do otherwise, because the bean counters who answer the phone there is not going to know anything about double rifles. If they told 9.3X57 that they use several double rifle to test their soilds, they are not telling the truth, because they are not going to buy several double rifle to do it, and nobody with any sense who owns doubles is going to let them use thiers. Suffice to say if you care anything about your double rifle you will not use any mono-metal solid or hollow point that doesn't have pressure rings cut into the shank properly. The $50 bounty not withsatanding I have seen barrels damaged personally by the use of mono-matal solids.

One example was posted on AR by a man who bought a Chapuis double rifle, and used Barnes super solids in his loads. In less than 10 shots his rifle suddenly lost all regulation. On inspecting the rifle he found that his barrels had come un-soldered from the ribs, and regulation wedges. He promptly sent the rifle back to Chapuis, and they fixe the rifle re-regulating it and re-soldering it an sending it back. The guy promptly went back to the range useing the same load. In a short time it happened again. However when he sent the rifle back to chapuis, they questioned him as to what loads he was useing. When they found out he was useing mono-metal solids he was told they would fix the rifle, but if he used the mono-metals again he was on his own. Tht thread can be found with a little effort by doing a search of a few years back. The owner of thet rifle may be posting here as well, but I can't remember his screen name, but he surely will if you ask for him to reply on over stressed rifleing, and use of mono-metal bullets in double rifles.

One of the members of the DRSS has a Ferlach double rifle made in 1926 chambered for 470 NE, that has pressed out rifleing on the barrel caused by the use of hard bullets according to JJ Parideau the Belgian trained double rifle expert, and partner at Champlin's in Enid Oklahoma. I would say JJ has more expertiese on double rifles that anyone at Barnes, or anyone posting on this thread, so pick the one you want to believe. The owner of that rifle Is Paul H. posting there by the screen name of 577 Nitro Express. I am one of the four founding members of the DRSS (Double Rifle Shooter's Society) www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com The website is in construction but the rifle in question is pictured there.


Your question about the use of common pressure sign on the cases to show you need to back off, the reason I posted on that subject here is because that practice was mentioned in this thread and this thread is about a double rifle, that if you load till you get pressure sign on the case, in a double rifle you have gone over pressure, and that is a very damageing thing it that platform. Most folks never use a cronograph, but a lot of people depend on those visible signs of pressure on the case/primer. All I'm saying is loading for a double rifle is a whole different ball game than with any other type rifle. The double rifle advice is worth to you exactly what you are paying for it, but if you disregard it, it may cost you considerably more!

It seems no matter the club you attend, it is a mistake to try to correct some missconceptions commonly held by the members, and perhaps I came on a little strong in this little clubhouse, but I simply get tired of people giving generic load advice for all rifles. BE cause this was a thred about a double rifle, LOUD was the way to get people to hear that the common missconceptions about loading double rifle are fostered by those who onluy load for other types. The fact that a flat primer is acceptable in a bolt rifle or a good lever action as a sign that you may be geting close to the top is not the same when dealing with a double rifle.

I'll be leaving this web-site now, to the poster who asked about the Biakal double, enjoy your new rifle, but do some thinking before you accept loads from folks who know next to nothing about loading for double rifles!

..............................SEE YA!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Sarg
.400 member


Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #143573 - 13/10/09 08:20 AM

Please dont do that , Stay , they didn't mean any harm !

None of your posts were too rude or over the top & we need all the experience we can get on Doubles !

I enjoy all the posts on this tread by the main guys , on this & other topics !

Im a 45/70 guy & in this rifle a 45/70 is the way to , no need to go Atomic on the loads ! (not saying we have)

Ive shot lots of Water Buff & Bantang with the 45/70 only because that is what I & others had , it works great , 500gr solid Horn , gave past thous but was not a great killer ! (I liked 400Gr X)

I have had heaps of clients armed with 375H&H & it has not preformed well , I personally had a 300gr soft Fed not exit a NECK shot on a Samber stag & not a huge stag !

I would prefer a Hot 45/70 over a 375H&H to stop some thing , but that is not for this or any other tread as this type of statment ALL WAYS causes problems !

Again Dugaboy stay with us & keep posting ! !

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: Sarg]
      #143574 - 13/10/09 08:30 AM


Dugaboy

I enjoyed your posts. Would be good if you stayed.


Sarg,
I'd prefer anything to stop something LOL
It's all in the bullet placement.
Bigger is of course better if you are slightly off target
and are around to see the consequences LOL

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #143575 - 13/10/09 08:37 AM

Mac, I too wish you'd reconsider this!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: AkMike]
      #143577 - 13/10/09 08:45 AM

Yeas, its sad if a disagreement will keep you from posting any more, if i contributed to you to take this action, please accept my apologies.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26860
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 450_366]
      #143581 - 13/10/09 11:25 AM

Dugaboy - I believe the Pen Solid, mentioned by Pierce appears to be a lead core'd 'solid' - not solid lead no jacket and not monocore solid copper - where'd THAT come from? In the picture, the jacket appears to be folded over the top of the bullet in the 'pointing' process - no it's not a pointed bullet, but an FMJ bullet with a flat nose. The bullet pictured with the description statement as being "on the left" is slightly riveted - that's the one that made 4 Cape Buffalo shoulders, while the one "on the right", penetrating full length of the bull, had nothing more than rifling marks on it's surface.

No one is advocating loading any .45/70 until primers flatten - where in the world did THAT come from?

As far as leaving the site just because of a loading disagreement - well, that's too bad. You have a lot of experience and a lot ot offer, just little, it seems, in loading for this round to it's potential, even at what would be deemed to be fairly low pressure, ie: 21,000 to 28,000PSI.

Note, with some powders, it will do the 400gr. @ 1,800fps at below 21,000PSI - I am extropolating that an added 2" of barrel might give in the vicinity of 50fps added speed - maybe not, maybe at under 21,000 PSI, it is producing only 1,780fps with a 400 or 415gr. bullet. - is that conservative enough? Buddy of mine used a 1,720fps laod with the 400gr. Speer in his Marlin - he hates recoil so loads it lightly, for moose every year. Every year he shoots exactly 1 shot at his bull moose - out to 200yards max range, his own imposed limit- an easy 2' high hold, the cross hairs just breaking air over it's back. He hits the moose in the middle of the lungs - an easy shot for anyone who is a shooter. His moose trip and fall at the shot - doesn't get much better than that.

I originally brought up the Pierce/Africa/Cape Buffalo escapade only to show the capability of the ctg. on large game, not to suggest the Baikal make the trip as the ultimate African Dangerous Game rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DarylS]
      #143586 - 13/10/09 01:35 PM

Duggaboy, sorry your feelings got hurt about the OSR issue. As I said in the original thread, I am not denying it occured. I'm making the point here that if someone calls a bullet maker, they may very well get the go ahead to use monos in a double and then they will have to decide between you {and others} and the bullet maker. As you said, if they don't know anything about doubles, they might not know who is right...

Parenthetically, it would be very helpful on this Forum, the world's most reknowned double site, if a good sticky could be built around documented and photographed cases of OSR. I'm certain many would benefit by that.

I saw your shingle hanging on a post on a different thread that indicates you're still around. Good for you and for us! {It was a really good and helpful post by the way, in my opinion.}

Folks are pretty forgiving here, and your namecalling and such will be forgotten soon.

Stick around!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Sgt_Brown
.224 member


Reged: 14/08/09
Posts: 24
Loc: NE Ohio, USA
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143587 - 13/10/09 02:01 PM

PBR,

To cut through the past three pages and get back to your question... I have both. Might I suggest you look at your hunting conditions. Brush? 45/70. Out in the open? 30/06. For simplicity, factory loads in both. I'm running factory 405's in the 45/70 for brushy whitetails. To stop a charging woodchuck out in a hay field I'm running Rem Managed Recoil 125's in the 06.

You could cheat a little by using 220's in the 30/06 for brush-busting and Black Hills cowboy loads in the 45/70 for big-bore woodchuck smashing.

Whatever, they're a ball.

Tom

--------------------
NRA Life member
DRSS

Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can - if necessary - look any man in the eye and tell him to go to Hell. - US Cavalry Manual 1923

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: Sgt_Brown]
      #143588 - 13/10/09 02:03 PM

Quote:

PBR,

To cut through the past three pages and get back to your question... I have both. Might I suggest you look at your hunting conditions. Brush? 45/70. Out in the open? 30/06. For simplicity, factory loads in both. I'm running factory 405's in the 45/70 for brushy whitetails. To stop a charging woodchuck out in a hay field I'm running Rem Managed Recoil 125's in the 06.

You could cheat a little by using 220's in the 30/06 for brush-busting and Black Hills cowboy loads in the 45/70 for big-bore woodchuck smashing.

Whatever, they're a ball.

Tom



Tom:

Accuracy of both guns?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Sgt_Brown
.224 member


Reged: 14/08/09
Posts: 24
Loc: NE Ohio, USA
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143604 - 14/10/09 01:07 AM

Quote:


Tom:

Accuracy of both guns?



Still working on them. Just got a trigger job on the 30/06 and haven't been to range yet. The 45/70 threw a nice group in the bull with the left barrel but the right barrel was off the paper. It was cold and started raining, so that ended that session. The 45/70 is now at my gunsmith getting its triggers re-done. The 30/06 triggers were horrible when I got the gun, while the 45/70 triggers made the 30/06 look like an Anschutz target rifle! Hopefully, the improved triggers will improve groups.

Tom

--------------------
NRA Life member
DRSS

Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can - if necessary - look any man in the eye and tell him to go to Hell. - US Cavalry Manual 1923

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: Sgt_Brown]
      #143608 - 14/10/09 02:02 AM

Has ANYBODY done ANY accuracy work with these guns?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143611 - 14/10/09 02:35 AM

Quote:

Duggaboy, sorry your feelings got hurt about the OSR issue. As I said in the original thread, I am not denying it occured. I'm making the point here that if someone calls a bullet maker, they may very well get the go ahead to use monos in a double and then they will have to decide between you {and others} and the bullet maker. As you said, if they don't know anything about doubles, they might not know who is right...



And a fast food joint will tell you that their food is good for you. Your argument is a red herring. Talk to gunmakers that have to deal with the damage. None of the British makers recommend this crap in their rifles. There was never a problem with barrel damage in double rifles until small operators looking for a cheap way into the bullet making business started producing monometals. Everybody denies responsibility, so somebody is lying. If I recall, somebody posted something from Barnes saying they had never received any complaints from DR shooters that had barrel damage from their bullets. That's a lie. I know of one from a man that I knew well. Another complaint was mine.

This has been a well-known problem for a long time. Your characterization of the issue above was a calculated insult to Mac, and highly unworthy of you. You need to research the issue a great deal more (including speaking to some credible sources, which Barnes is not) and get some hands on experience with the issue yourself - you're not a double rifle shooter - before debating someone much more experienced than yourself.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143613 - 14/10/09 03:43 AM

9.3, there is a missunderstanding caused by me with the wording in my post. I wrote "WEBSITE" when what I meant was "THIS THREAD"!

And one final thing I never called anyone any name other that the one they go by here!

....................................Again goodBYE!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #143646 - 14/10/09 01:13 PM

400; no insult to anyone.

What I stated was and is merely fact.

Your point about me not being a double shooter is relevant to the post I made on behalf of shooters getting in to the double game.

Look at it this way. I bet we agree that most Baikal buyers will be new to doubles. Maybe the Baikal will be the only double they own. They will no doubt be interested in loading for them, and if they are, they might hop to this site and read something about mono bullets and the recommendations some like you and Duggaboy make against their use. They might have had such good success with monos in another caliber that they might call the bullet companies to be sure. And guess what they will be told? Barnes will tell them, like the technician told me again today, that Barnes monos are OK for use in doubles. A-Square loads ammo in calibers that are commonly used in "soft tube" barrel guns for crying out loud, so we know what they must think.

Then our hypothetical Baikal Buyer processes the info...

Says he; "Who do I believe? A bullet company that has been making the bullets for years and has their business to lose if they are wrong, or 'some guy on the internet' whose credentials are totally unknown to me"?

And that IS the fact.

I am not saying you and Duggaboy are WRONG about monos. I AM saying that the companies are going to tell our Baikal Buyer something 180 degrees opposite of what you are saying and then the buyer is going to have to make a decision. Bullet Company or 400/Duggaboy?

I happen to think that Duggaboy's broaching of the mono bullet subject was constructive and in fact, the only constructive thing he brought to the discussion, but my point stands: Those who call the bullet makers are going to be told something that they are not being told on this Forum.

As for name calling, he called everyone on the thread who posted before him "you 45-70 crackpots".

I admit I might be a crackpot, but the rest of them I'm pretty sure are sober, sane and civil.

Except for Sarg.

He's a crackpot to be sure. Killing Down Under buff with a .45-70 should get him a straight jacket and a rubber room for sure.

I hope right next to mine, because I want to listen to his in-depth ballistic commentary involving the .45-70 on what MUST be jello-boned, froth-muscled bovines unable to stop a day-old marshmellow, much less a 400-to-500 grain .45 slug at somewhere around 1800 fps.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (14/10/09 01:33 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143651 - 14/10/09 01:50 PM

Quote:

Says he; "Who do I believe? A bullet company that has been making the bullets for years and has their business to lose if they are wrong, or 'some guy on the internet' whose credentials are totally unknown to me"?



One more time. You need to do some serious research. You really have no idea how silly the above sounds?

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #143655 - 14/10/09 02:40 PM

One more time.

Both the bullet makers and those against the use of monos could post names, credentials, contact information, business relations/interests, documentation and proofs.

Actually, I don't need to do any research, the Prospective Mono Shooter does.

As a matter of fact, it is possible we might be able to get a company or two to engage the members here on this Forum on this topic. I'm working on that. If you have some specific questions you'd like answered or addressed, PM me and I'll be happy to forward and see if we can't get this done. I don't want to be too optimistic, but possibly this forum can be the place where both sides of the issue can present their data and documentation in an, imagine that, open forum. This Forum has high standing among companies and shooters, and with members such as yourself and others who have extensive double experience, seems a perfect and natural place to do it. Possibly John could form a sticky on the subject.

On a separate note, what sort of experimentation could be done to replicate OSR without ruining a fine double?

I'm thinking a .458 barrel could be turned down to a wall thickness equal to a '20's-era double {or thinner} fitted to a cheap Mauser action and shot with mono's. Granted, the steel alloy and rifling dimensions would be somewhat different to the old double, but a workable duplicate could possibly be fashioned? I know a gunsmith who would very likely be interested in building such a test bed. This would not necessarily duplicate harmonics, but should address the issue of the "snake swallowing the egg" at the very least.

Possibly a collection could be taken from members for the materials and gunsmith fees, ammo, etc. Couldn't cost but 500 or 600 bucks or so, since the action wouldn't need feed work as a single shot and could be fitted to a cheap plastic stock. Sights wouldn't even be needed. Heck, the bullets would cost more than the "gun".

Ten or so guys kicking in $50 or thereabouts would do it I think. As you say, I am not a double owner, but as a gun nut {sorry, crackpot} it would be worth $50 to me to see the project completed and documented. Barrel dimensions could be taken throughout. Maybe a bullet maker would be willing to kick in also.

Possibly some other experiment could be put together as well if the above idea doesn't meet muster in your judgment.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #143667 - 14/10/09 06:33 PM

Dugaboy1, please hang around, I enjoy your posts and you are right on monolithics, not in a double. For those who reckon they are fine I would ask them to call whoever is the maker and ask for a document indemnifying them for the total value of the double they are about to shoot them in with the document legalised and the US$15k say (supposing that is the rifles value) in an escrow account
while they use the bullet makers monolithics. I'll have a wager that none of these bullet makers will take the owner up on it. best, Mike

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Baikal 45-70 vs 30-06 [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #143673 - 14/10/09 08:12 PM

Quote:

For those who reckon they are fine I would ask them to call whoever is the maker and ask for a document indemnifying them for the total value of the double they are about to shoot them in with the document legalised and the US$15k say (supposing that is the rifles value) in an escrow account
while they use the bullet makers monolithics. I'll have a wager that none of these bullet makers will take the owner up on it. best, Mike



You're absolutely right, Mike. Like 9.3 above, virtually all of the mono makers (I refuse to call them bullet makers, because they're not) insist that OSR is a myth akin to Bigfoot. It doesn't take much research to find out that it's common.

Some of Graeme Wright's comments about OSR from "Shooting the British Double Rifle":

"The first and more frequent problem is what I will refer to as over-stressed rifling....It can be seen when looking down the outside of the barrels at an acute angle, using the same technique as examining a shotgun barrel for dents and bulges. The damage appears as raised metal areas following the lands of the rifling. Maybe a better description is "shadows outlining the rifling." (Sounds real easy to photograph, don't it?)

"This problem can affect double rifles of any age. Virtually all double rifle makers have encountered this at some time and it is obviously a major concern."

"Firstly, Russell (Wilkin of Holland & Holland) points out the fact that double rifles operated without problems for 75 to 100 years. However, late in the twentieth century these problems started to manifest themselves. The only change was the use of a different projectile material"

"In severe cases, even more damage can result. In some cases the barrels have come apart at the muzzles, breaking the solder of the ribs and bending the barrels. One British gun maker has reported a case where the right barrel was bent one inch up and to the right and the solder of the ribs cracked half way down the barrels."

"On a practical level it is interesting to note that none of the current London Gunmakers recommends hard projectiles in their double rifles and in some cases single barreled rifles."

Unfortunately, Graeme is right. OSR is common. I've seen everything from slightly visible "print" to severe with bent barrels. Ross Seyfried wrote an article in DGJ back in '94 or so about handloading for double rifles, and mentioned that Holland had wrecked a new .500/.465 Royal with monos when a customer requested that it be regulated with them. By that time David Winks had seen enough mono damage to DR barrels that, although he agreed, he warned that Holland would not accept responsibility if damage occurred. By the time the regulator was finished (rarely ever more than 60 rounds, usually far fewer), the barrels clearly showed serious OSR, and the client was obliged to cough up another 10,000GBP for another set. New rifle, modern steel. I had first heard about this rifle when I was in the London shop a year or so before the article appeared. Unfortunately, I had already ruined one myself by that time.

Oh, well. I guess Graeme Wright, the London gunmakers, Ross Seyfried, me, and all the guys I know that own doubles with visisble OSR are just Bigfoot kooks. LOL.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | >> (show all)


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
1 registered and 113 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 37250

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved