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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Dracon Filler in a 450 BPE
      #141913 - 12/09/09 07:15 AM

This post is for Bob Jurewicz who hasn't had any joy in trying for several months to gain access to this site.


"Read all the DGJ articles relating to use of Nitro for Black in early double rifle cartridges. I am reloading 450 BPE with 48 gr 4198, 300 gr cast bullet and 13gr of Dacron Filler. Sherman Bell tested this load using I believe cork wad as filler and got about 22,000 lbs. per sq. in of pressure. He promised future tests using dacron and has yet to publish those.
I believe that cramming 14gr of dacron in the unfilled case may reduce case volume and significantly increase pressure.
Is there anything out there on dacron vs Pressure????
If not what are the theories? I have read recommendations for anywhere from a couple of grans of dacron to a case stuffed with tight packed dacrom to fill the airspace.
I'll be interested to hear your ideas!
Bob Jurewicz"


From:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...4500#Post160744

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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herrdoktor
.275 member


Reged: 03/08/07
Posts: 85
Loc: Spain
Re: Dracon Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: ellenbr]
      #141914 - 12/09/09 08:11 AM

Hello, Bob:

If you pack 13 grains of Dacron (density 1,3 grams/cc) inside your case, you are reducing the volume available inside in about .7 cubic centimeters; the bulk of the Dacron is apparently great, but most of it is air. It is very difficult to know the weight and the volume of the "cork wad" used by Sherman Bell, because cork density varies very much; but if I had to bet, it reduced the available space more than your Dacron and weighted much more than your Dacron. According to that, being the same the load, primer, case and bullet, his 22.000 psi should be higher than yours with Dacron.
I donīt know of any article relating dacron and pressure with pressure readings; but if we are not talking about very light tuffs of the material and the possibility of erratic ignition caused by the powder not placed by the primer (that you must consider if you want to stay in one piece), or the effects of the dacron as a "secondary proyectile", I think you must assume that the greater the dacron weight, the less the available case volume, the higher the weight of the ejecta (bullet and dacron weight) and the higher the pressure, being all the other factors the same.

And now, I will take one step to the side and hear the roar of the opinions about fillers!

If you search the "fillers" or "wads" theme in the forum, you will find lots of information.

Bast wishes

Antonio

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Dracon Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: herrdoktor]
      #141916 - 12/09/09 08:38 AM

Bob,

You are safe using the Seyfried methods as discussed in DGJ and Handloader. That is, stuff the case full of dacron - 13 grains is fine. What Tinker has said on your thread at DoubleGunshop.com is correct advice.

I am one of the folks who hates the "snow shower" of dacron that results from these loads, so I am now using foam wads primarily. I also use felt wads on occasion. (Marrakai decries anything but felt.) Lately I have been using backer rod, but I don't know if you can get 1/2" backer rod in the .450 case. It's great in the .500 BPE.

Graeme Wright has pressure data with his NfB loads. His data are from the Birmingham proof house. The NfB loads have consistently lower pressure than the black powder loads.

Enjoy that .450 BPE.

We need to get you signed up on this board. What has been the problem?

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Dracon Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: CptCurl]
      #141917 - 12/09/09 09:00 AM

Thanks, fellas.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Dracon Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: ellenbr]
      #141918 - 12/09/09 09:34 AM

Bob:

Good responses from Tinker and Curl. Use the Dacron. Always err on the side of too much, rather than too little.

I've used Dacron in double rifles for 20 years and have heard warnings of dire consequences for doing so from theorists (rather than double rifle shooters) the entire time. Whenever damage is reported, it virtually always turns out that a tiny little tuft was pushed down on top of the powder instead of filling the remaining air space up to the point of compression. I've never once heard of an instance where damage (such as a ringed chamber) occurred when dacron was used properly. Because of the necessity of fillers in the large flanged Cordite rounds and BPEs, dacron has been used in this role for decades now, and the does and don'ts are long since settled.

In the Cordite rounds, Kynoch uses their foam wads in virtually all of their factory ammunition over .375 caliber, and I've never had a report of a hiccup. However, Ross Seyfried HAS reported ringed chambers from the use of multiple foam wads in Nitro for Black applications. Again though, I've never had a single credible report regarding dacron in NfB loads, when used as you describe (12-14 grains in a .450 BPE), and it's been done that way for a long, long time.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Dacron Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #141919 - 12/09/09 09:52 AM

Quote:

ringed chambers from the use of multiple foam wads in Nitro for Black applications.



400:

Can you elaborate here? When you say multiple, are you saying they are placed loosely in the case and can shift about or something? What exactly are the offending wads?

BTW: I don't own a double, but do shoot a load I worked up for a Marlin .45-70 using a wad column and a charge of IMR3031 followed by a card wad + greased felt wad + card wad and finally the bullet. This affair provides for compression of the powder and very clean burning, not to mention almost total elimination of leading even in cold temps using the Lee 400 {402 ave cast of wheelweights} grain Hollow Point bullet. Previous loading using just the powder allowed unburnt powder and leading of the slightly undersize bullet {.458 in a .458-to-.459-inch groove-depth barrel}. I have no clue what pressures are generated by my pet load but it runs completely safely in my gun.

I "shake test" old rounds to make sure no airspace exists before shooting.

I am wondering if a long wad column would be safe/useful in the straight {+/-} .450 BPE using a stacked deal like the one here, albeit thicker due to longer case length.

Incidently, my .45-70 load here runs 1640 fps and with it I've killed deer, bear and range cattle. The bullet provides very deep penetration "Nosler Partition-style" performance.

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ChrisPer
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Re: Dacron Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: 9.3x57]
      #141927 - 12/09/09 07:21 PM

I have fired some loads similar to those in my 450 BPE 2 3/4". As per advice, I stuffed the dacron till it wouldn't stuff amy more. There was indeed a snowstorm on firing; I was a touch concerned about dacron contaminating the farm's wool. I would prefer a more coherent filler if possible.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Dacron Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: ChrisPer]
      #141943 - 13/09/09 12:29 AM

As long as the powder charge has 'some' compression, there will be no ringing. I've used card wads, dona-cona, dacron and kapok - all producing some compression of the powder and never a problem.
9.3- there is nothing wrong with your load - as it provides some compression. Some powders don't need compression, but with the you site, you had leading problems - this is waht wads are for. Wads are only necessary to eliminate problemsw ith accuracy and ignition.
Even black powder cases can be used with long wad columns- as my bro did in his .45 3-1/4" Sharps. 100gr. 2F, about 8, 1/10" wads then a bullet = excellent accuracy and less recoil than a full 122gr. charge of the same powder. Too, when shooting the paper patched 420gr. bullets, he used the same system of loading, with excellent results.
Always having a compressed load when using wads = entirely satisfactory results as to safety of the gun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Dacron Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: DarylS]
      #141946 - 13/09/09 01:53 AM

It would seem for simplicity's sake a powder that does not require fillers of any kind would be preferable to one that does, unless as I have experienced and Daryl notes, the wad is used for some other purpose; elimination of leading, for example.

I'd encourage anyone who has a need for a large-case Black Powder-velocity load to look closely at Accurate 5744. That stuff has served me well in .45-70 and I've read of very good results in other larger cases, too.

Only caveat is that I can't say whether or not safe working pressures would exist with certain bullet weight/velocity duplication charges, meaning, simply, use all normal care and safe loading practises in working up loads.

A load I've used in my Marlin with excellent results uses 5744 plus a 420 grain Lyman flat point bullet for 1600 fps. This is the beginning threshold for stiff recoil in the Marlin, but such a load is a very deep penetrator and seems ballistically quite similar to some of the NFB performance loads discussed here from time to time. Of course, many modern .45-70 loads duplicate the performance of much bigger British BP cases.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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450_EXPRESS
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Reged: 04/01/09
Posts: 349
Loc: S.C.Montana
Re: Dacron Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: 9.3x57]
      #141948 - 13/09/09 03:02 AM

Another good powder, that is similar to Accurate's 5744, is IMR SR4759. It is an excellent powder for reduced loads, I use it in my .338 for a fur load, and works well for me in the .450 3 1/4" BPE. Haven't tried it in the 45/70 yet, but plan to seein as how I had to order the powder, local shop's supplier doesn't carry it, and bought enough to make paying the HAZMAT fee worth it.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Dacron Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: 450_EXPRESS]
      #141951 - 13/09/09 05:11 AM

Quote:

Another good powder, that is similar to Accurate's 5744, is IMR SR4759. It is an excellent powder for reduced loads, I use it in my .338 for a fur load, and works well for me in the .450 3 1/4" BPE. Haven't tried it in the 45/70 yet, but plan to seein as how I had to order the powder, local shop's supplier doesn't carry it, and bought enough to make paying the HAZMAT fee worth it.



Yes, the old helmet testing powder.

I've had good results in .45-70 with "NO FILLER" loads using 2400 and Unique, the latter, along with cast bullets, being a great way to keep the gun going with dirt cheap ammo.

Not sure how Unique would fair with the large bottleneck rounds, but it seems it should work well in the straight case Brit BP loads.

Anybody tried it?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Dacron Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: 9.3x57]
      #142216 - 18/09/09 03:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Not sure how Unique would fair with the large bottleneck rounds, but it seems it should work well in the straight case Brit BP loads.

Anybody tried it?




Not the powder mentioned in the post above but back to the dacron filler. The beauty of the dacron filler is the fact that it works so well in the bottle-necked cases, and the verious wads are dangerous in bottle-necked cases if they are below the neck into the shoulder area. That is a recipe for ringing. Straight cases less so. The dacorn will flow out of the bottle-necked case like air, but the wads that get on the primer side of the shoulder allow flash-over and the wad becomes a secondary projectile!

As others have said the most consistant loads in Bottle-necked cases where filler is needed is with Dacron fiber. The proper way to use dacron filler is powder on the primer,plus enough dacron filler on top of the powder charge so that when the bullet is seated the dacron column is slightly compressed,to avoid powder migration, no free airsapce in the case!

Caution NEVER place a solid wad down on top of a powder charge leaving airspace between the wad, and the bullet! That is a recipe for disaster!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: Dracon Filler in a 450 BPE [Re: ellenbr]
      #142232 - 18/09/09 07:57 AM

I have used Dacron for 30 years, more or less, in various British calibers, including the .450 nitro for black powder (NFB) load, and never had a problem. Follow what Ross Seyfried has said, and you won't go wrong. Works for me!

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