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crkennedy1
.375 member


Reged: 05/12/08
Posts: 501
Loc: Utah
Tipping Etiquette?
      #140771 - 19/08/09 08:42 AM

This is probably a question that has been discussed in the past, but I've never seen the thread. So, here goes - I'll be going to South Africa to hunt plains game in less than a month. I won the hunt in an SCI auction last fall. The outfit is Duthalo Safaris located about two hours north of Johannesburg in Nylstroom, SA. My PH is Ian Tolmay and he seems like a decent man. I'm a bit concerned because the he hasn't been keeping in as close of contact as I thought he should - perhaps he's just really busy with other clients. Anyway, I am wondering what is acceptable tipping? Is there a standard? We'll be hunting mostly smaller planes game ( like impala, springbok, duiker and wart hog), seven animals in all, though I have an option to hunt a gemsbok and/or a kudu. Thanks, Christopher

--------------------
DOUBLE or NOTHING


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: crkennedy1]
      #140772 - 19/08/09 08:55 AM

Hi CR,

You're right, this has been discussed extensively, although I didn't weigh in at the time. In my opinion, as a relatively poor sportsman, tipping should be included in the price of the hunt. If not, then the outfitter should list the people who should be tipped, and declare an appropriate tip, or range of tips for each of them. We should be able to know in advance what the trip will cost, and be able to rest comfortably knowing nobody has been shorted. In fact, it bothers me the most not knowing if I've tipped enough. An outfitted hunting/fishing trip should be fun, without worries about people being unhappy. Those of us with a tight budget need to know where we stand.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: Tatume]
      #140775 - 19/08/09 09:23 AM

Absolutly Tom

I read a report recently where a client gave a tracker a Rolex watch.

It sets the bar at stupid levels for mere mortals.

A Tip IMHO is just that a reward of gratitude for services above and beyond...It should not be part of the salery package.

Again IMHO Outfitters/PH's should set the cost of the trip to cover all that and their profit. If they perform especially well then it is up to the hunter to express that, otherwise it is like hidden taxes.

Regards


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: Bramble]
      #140778 - 19/08/09 11:58 AM

I agree with the general sentiments here. The hunter can of course budget tips for the hunt in advance on top of what the pro suggests, but he should be clear in his suggestions. I'd keep pestering your pro for some guidelines.

Sort-of related, but not exactly...you might find something in camp you might want as a souvenir of the trip. Make the owner an offer he can't refuse!,

On a day off once, I took a jaunt with an old-timer, one of the Zulu crew who had a notion where a bunch of vervet monks were and he wanted one for his own "pot" and I wanted one for kicks. I myself just plain love chasing monkeys!

We set off and spent the day searching for them and finally found a big troop that blew up and took off at high speed, we trying our hardest to keep up. I had my old Marlin 36 Sporting Carbine {alas, now gone...} and I got one on the wing so-to-speak.

We were just plain tuckered out but had such a grand time together. Saw a huge python and dodged a green mamba. My Zulu was nil, his English sketchy. My Afrikaans not-so-good, his fluent. So it was pretty much pidgin-this, pidgin-that the whole day.

Anyway, on the hike home we bumped into a fellow puttering along in his bakkie and we cheated a ride back to camp in the back. On the way, I offered the Zulu fellow a day and a half's wage for one of his knobkerries. He laughed and handed it over. Thought I was nuts no doubt! The cost was not much to me, but he appreciated it and I have one of the most memorable souveniers of any hunt I've been on. Used it on a coyote just last year!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26950
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #140788 - 19/08/09 01:20 PM

There is hardly nothing worse than working your ass off for a hunter and having him give you nothing for a tip.

I don't know about Africa, but guides I know work hard for their clients - some clients tip and others don't. The outfitter pays poorly so his guides work hard for a resonable tip. Sometimes there isn't one.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: DarylS]
      #140791 - 19/08/09 02:38 PM

I copied this off of Chifuti's web site as I thought it may be useful here..

I might be a bit guilty of overdoing it as to the tipping..but, on my last Safari, really feel they went above and beyond, therefore I compensated accordingly..

Ripp




By Dave Fulson

It had been one of those hunts where everything had gone as close to perfect as you can get on an elk hunt. My week of pre-scouting in New Mexico’s Gila wilderness had helped me pinpoint several big bulls near the remote spike camp I had set up for my client and myself in an attempt to get away from big crowds on hand for the rifle season open.

It could have ended on day one when my hunter shot over the back of a 330 B&C bull at 200 yards because, as he stated later, he thought it was closer to 400 yards. One scouted bull long gone. But after passing two very nice bulls the next few days while looking for a ‘monstah’ (my hunter, if it matters, was from the deep south) we found one, and this time my hunter dropped the big bull at about eighty yards. The bull scored about 345 B&C points and my guy was beside himself with joy.

As I gutted, skinned, butchered and meat-sacked the bull by myself, my hunter anointed me with every compliment a guide could wish for as he sat in a patch of sunlight next to a small fire he had asked me to build him.

“Best hunt I’ve ever been on”, was his comment as he finished a final bite of the t-bone steak lunch I bought him near the airport where I was depositing him after a four-hour drive on my gas and time.

“This worked out great, I didn’t have to rent a car and you and I got to visit some more. You probably got out of some chores, too”, he chuckled as I paid the bill, seeing that he sure wasn’t reaching for it. “Hey, Dave, let me get the tip, that pretty gal’s a good waitress”, he said as he flipped a generous tip on the tabletop. Later as I unloaded his bags at the airport, he grabbed my hand, shook it vigorously, and restated that I was the best guide he had ever hunted with, and that when he returned for an even bigger ‘monstah’, that he would not think of hunting with anyone else but ‘Super Dave’ (the handle he had graced me with since day one).

With that, he gave me back my hand, picked up his bags and headed back to Sweet Home Alabama with a bruiser elk. A $10 tip for a $30 meal, but zip for five days of very hard hunting, packing, and driving, not to mention sixteen hours of free airport shuttle service. You know about death and taxes, let me throw in another of life’s little guarantees: He may kill another big elk, but it won’t be with ‘Super Dave’!

Tipping, gratuity, ‘greasing the guide’ or whatever you choose to call it, is one of the most slippery slopes guided hunters negotiate when an outfitted hunt is considered. Many hunters have never been on a guided hunt and don’t know what the protocol is.

Each year, I face the ‘what to tip’ question from three very different angles: 1) as an outfitter who employs guides, 2) as the client’s personal guide, and 3) as a client.

As an outfitter who employs guides, I’m often asked by clients about tipping. In fact, I ease the subject of gratuities into every pre-hunt meeting I have with clients along with safety talks, hunt strategy sessions, bag limits, etc. I explain to my hunters that they are in the care of experienced professional guides who’s skill and knowledge will most likely determine the success of their hunt. I state, up front, that tips are absolutely not mandatory, but are always appreciated and without a doubt well-earned. I am happy to give the tipping client suggestions on amounts and let them decide how much they wish to leave their guide.

When I am the guide, and the client says, “I’d like to tip you, but I don’t want to offend you or overdo it”, things are a bit more tricky. I usually give them a yearly average based on previous clients in camp and let them make their decision based on that.

Many times, the acknowledgement of your effort in words is as important to a professional guide as a tip, but this is after all, his profession, and hunting is this man’s way to pay the bills, not a fun hobby.

As a client myself several times each year, I simply practice what I preach. If my man works hard, knows his stuff, runs his camp, equipment and staff in a professional manner, than I’m going to reward his efforts in cash at the hunt’s conclusion. And the amount is NOT based simply on horn or antler scores on some damn tape measure. It will be based on the effort and overall enjoyment of the hunting experience.

A word of warning here to an ever-growing number of what I call ‘bounty hunters’, who seem to be showing up in my camps from Austin all the way to Africa. If you want to immediately insult an experienced guide or professional hunter at the beginning of your trip, just pull him aside and tell him that if he wants a ‘really good tip’ he’ll see to it that you bag the biggest buck or bull in camp.

Trust me on this; you have just been categorized as a problem client regardless of your social status or bank balance. Guides are never happy to be saddled with this type of dude.

He may work his tail off for you regardless, as his professional credo demands, but he’ll do it with a detached sense of ‘get him shot out and back on a plane ASAP’ attitude instead of the total enjoyment a fun-to-be-with client brings to the guide/client relationship.

Professional hunting guides, regardless of where they ply their trade, rarely make over $150 US at the end of their long, hard and oftentimes dangerous days. Figure in gasoline, wear and tear on their own vehicles, insurance and the like, and it’s easy to see that no one in this game is getting rich regardless of how much you shelled out for an elk hunt or African safari. The fact is that cash tips at the end of a hunt are a very important part of a professional guide’s financial bottom line.

Another fact is that, without being delicate, most all the professional guides I employ, hunt with, and know around the globe consider it a slap in the face to be snubbed at the end of a hunt when they have put in their best effort and the client has the financial means to offer more than a handshake.

Since he’s a pro, however, he will shake your hand, compliment the beastie you bagged, thank you for choosing him to hunt with and put you back on the plane with a smile. All with the class of a true professional, because that’s exactly what he is.

But the truth is that your final thought of him will be far different from his of you, if you slighted him at the conclusion of your hunt. Oh, I can hear the wheels churning in some of your heads right now. “I didn’t tip Ole’ Bill on our hunt, but we were old friends by the time the trip was over, and he would have probably been insulted if I had”. I hope you buy that, but believe me, Ole’ Bill - and Ole’ Dave - know better!

Professional hunters do not have stock options, bonus incentives, or mandatory pay raises and the like to fall back on. Their earning potential is limited to a few months on the calendar when they must make enough cash to see themselves and their families throughout the rest of the year.

They also share the same range of emotions found by folks in any other profession, including disappointment. Dozens of times over the years, I’ve been stiffed at the end of a hunt by guys that thought, and even told me from time to time, “You make a daily rate for doing your job, that’s enough.”

But let that same guy find out that this year there would be no Christmas bonus, (one he’s come to count on each year) from his company even though his sales numbers were through the roof, and we’ll see how the old “Well you’ve got your regular salary, that’s enough” suits him then! I’m sure you get my point.

So, what is an appropriate tip amount? Well, that depends on many factors. Your overall enjoyment of the hunting experience should be a determining factor. Right here is a good time to state a very important fact. Not all hunts are enjoyable experiences and not all guides put forth the effort to be eligible for extra consideration at the hunt’s conclusion.

I have seen lazy, unprepared, and unqualified people who impostered as true guides during my years in this business, and you may have as well. Am I insinuating that just because a guy has a business card that says ‘Licensed Guide’ on it that a tip of any sort is, or should be, mandatory? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Yours Truly has suffered through a few of this type over the years, and you can be assured that all I left them was a piece of my mind at the hunt’s end. Bad service and lack of effort should not be rewarded in the bush any more than it should be at a restaurant.

But if your trip was a well-run and enjoyable experience and you wish to acknowledge it as such with a gratuity, here are some guidelines. (see sidebar)

The degree of difficulty in securing your desired trophy should be a consideration. Sitting over a feeder with a client waiting for a good Whitetail is a vastly different proposition than wading into the long grass after a poorly shot lion. Some professional hunters, particularly those who pursue dangerous game in Africa, face serious bodily injury and even death as a regular part of their job. That should surely count for something.

Remember, the guide is usually not the outfitter, he simply works for him. It’s easy and sometimes understandable for, lets say, a group of hunters on a top Whitetail ranch to shell out $5000 per man with four men in the group, and say, “Well, we just made that guy $20,000 in four days, that should be plenty.”

Unless the outfitter owns the ranch and the animals, he probably only made a 10% commission on the total hunt ($2000) from which he paid a cook, bought food, and had to hire guides at between $100-$150 per day, times 4. He probably spent around $100 per group in long distance calls, brochures, gas for airport pick-up and the like, just to secure the booking in the first place. Are you starting to see the big picture? Men wishing to end up in the Fortune 500 listing seldom choose professional hunting as a career.

Most who do choose this career enjoy the game animals they hunt, the country they operate in and, in the vast majority of cases, the clients whom they join with on a mutual adventure. The good ones are fun to be with, know their game and their region, are honest and direct in their dealings and have the ability to make even the beginning hunter feel comfortable and confident during the hunt. A good guide will, no matter what the conditions or situation, always give a good effort. Your satisfaction will always be his number one goal.

A heartfelt ‘Thank You’ from a good client who gave a modest tip may indeed be more genuinely appreciated than $500 being flung down on the table by some high-roller who did it more for the show, than to show true recognition for the effort.

Let your conscience and honest feeling for the guide be the determining factor, as well as your financial situation when deciding a tip amount.

This is a game with no written rules, although the ‘Golden’ one fits pretty well here. I hope you can use the above information to get a better foothold on the slippery slope of the tipping dilemma.

SIDEBARS

Gear in Place of Cash
In some cases a client may wish to tip the guide with a piece of gear instead of cash. While cash is preferable with most guides in the majority of cases, a quality piece of gear can be a very appreciated gesture. I have seen binoculars, spotting scopes, clothing and even rifles given as tips years ago, that are still in use today, long after the equivalent of cash would have been spent and forgotten.

If you choose this route, just make certain it is an item of better quality than your man currently owns, and not something you’re simply trying to get rid of. If you think of a gift you think he may need but you don’t have on hand, tell him to expect a surprise in the mail and then follow through as soon as you get back home. This important act of etiquette will be greatly appreciated.

Camp Staff

In most African camps, the staff of helpers can be quite large compared with most North American Hunts.

Trackers, skinners, cook staff, tent boys, laundry workers and general helpers the like can make appropriate tips a bit tricky. Consult your P.H. or camp manager on what would be reasonable for the staff and he will be happy to assist you. Oftentimes, I tip the staff through the P.H. and he tips the help according to their position in the camp pecking order.

Remember, there are people working for you that you may never even see ( example: shower boy, mechanic or tent cleaner ) but let them take a day off, and you would immediately miss their service! Don’t forget about these folks.

Trackers

The tracker is without a doubt the most important staff position on most safaris. You will be with them all day, every day, and it is normal that strong bonds and pleasant memories will be forged with them. Tipping trackers is something that each client usually feels strongly about since they “watch” them earn their meager pay daily, often under dangerous conditions.

Ask your P.H. his thoughts on the amount at the safaris conclusion and he will give you an idea of what might be appropriate. One more thing, it is customary to tip the trackers personally, away form the others. We usually carry cash on the last day for this and it is preceded by a short word of thanks and a handshake in the field. If you do not speak the lingo, your P.H. will translate, but your guys will know what you are saying and they will appreciate you for it.

Game Scout

In Zimbabwe, a government game scout will accompany you in the field each day. He is legally there to observe and to ensure all game rules are obeyed. Some scouts simply observe the hunt and do little else. But, a great many become a very important part of the hunting team by tracking, changing flats, cutting brush, recovering game, ect. If you get a hard working scout, the entire Chifuti team very much appreciates you tipping him at the end of the hunt. His job is a dangerous one, and his Zimbabwe paycheck is shockingly small, even by Zim standards, so remember him if he was a hard worker.

Your PH

In today’s society, most waiters and waitresses average a 10%-15% tip for taking an order and delivering it with a smile. Professional hunters and their staff usually work a lot harder for far less, so remember that fact before the final handshake on your next hunt.

TYPE OF SAFARI P.H. TIP TRACKER TEAM CAMP MGR CAMP STAFF
7 day plains game 400.00 50.00 each 100.00 75.00
10 day plains game 500.00 75.00 each 125.00 100.00
10 day buffalo / plains game 750.00 150.00 each 125.00 300.00
14 day buffalo / leopard / plains 1,000.00 175.00 each 150.00 400.00
18 day buffalo / lion / plains game 1,500.00
200.00 each 200.00 500.00
21 day ‘big 4’ hunt 2,000.00 250.00 each 250.00 600.00

Remember, our tipping suggestions are no different than any other portion of this information package. Their sole purpose is to help our client prepare for and enjoy their safari experience. And as always, tipping is at the discretion of you, the client.

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39828
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: DarylS]
      #140795 - 19/08/09 04:22 PM

Quote:

The outfitter pays poorly ...




Which is the real problem, not the amount of a 'gift' at the end of a hunt IMO.

I believe some African outfitters eg in Tanzania, only "pay" many of their staff in food and a rough camp as accommodation, or if any money less than a dollar or two a day. Also are cagey in revealing how much they actually PAY their staff.

Maybe tips should be based on the amount an outfitter pays in wages rather than the fees HE charges the client.

Really how much SIMPLER it would be for the outfitter to pay a fair wage and a handshake by the client serves as a thank you by the client at the end of the hunt.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: NitroX]
      #140806 - 19/08/09 07:42 PM

The problem with tips is that every country has its own culture about it and generally it's a very strong culture.

The Aussies for example developed a non tipping culture right from the start and other cultures went right the opposite direction.

A lot of Americans seem to think that traditionally, they're the biggest tippers and that's a bit of a misconception. That's an observation, not a criticism.

In African based cultures there are similar differences from country to country as well. South Africa at one end of the scale tends to have fewer staff and they usually earn lower wages. Reasons for this are many and varied but a lot of it boils down to the country having a better infra structure and lower living costs etc. (this is now beginning to change a tad though!)

At the other end of the scale are countries such as Tanzania where hunting camps have more staff at higher wages, much higher living costs, less infra structure and greater distances etc.

This means that average (if there is such a thing) amount of tips and number of staff to tip, vary from country to country and what's appropriate in one country has no relevence whatsoever to what's appropriate in another country.

As to wages, I can understand why most companies prefer not to discuss it with people outside the industry. Firstly it varies from company to company and indeed, as John says, there are a few that don't pay their ataff at all..... there's others that promise payment but don't deliver. However, these companies are not the ones you should be booking with, because if they're going to do that to their own staff, you can be sure that the hunter is going to get his fair share of being buggered about. - Unfortunately, some people fail to realise that you get what you pay for and don't get what you don't pay for. Ideally, all hunters would make quality their first priority when buying a hunt but sadly, many make cost their first priority. Also remember that most here wouldn't be prepared to discuss their own salaries, personal finances or what they pay their staff etc, so why should people in the hunting industry be any different?

All that said, I personally believe that these things should be viewed as 'when in Rome, do as the Romans do' For example, if I went to a country where tipping is not considered normal or acceptable, I wouldn't tip. If I went to a country where 15% was the norm, then I'd tip 15%.

As to the case in hand........ assuming it's a fairly average smallish scale South African (PG) hunt, the client can expect a fairly small number of staff. Probably a tracker and a skinner (although one guy might do both jobs) plus a maid or two to look after the rooms and do the laundry, a cook and maybe a waiter. These people and their families will be fed, clothed and housed etc by their employer and will also be paid a smallish (by western standards) salary. PHs (assuming they don't own the company) are usually paid on a per day they hunt basis but obviously have their own bills to pay throughout the year.

So what should you give as a tip? I'd recommend you classify the local staff into two groups. Tracker, skinner, cook and waiter should get something in the region of R400-R800 each for the 10 day hunt and the maids/laundry girls maybe about 30% less than that each.

As to PHs....... this one varies more but somewhere between about US$200 - US$500 or so. Note incidentally that in most parts of Africa, it's usual to tip the local staff in Rands and the PH in USD but in SA, you could probably do what's most convenient for you.

In closing, I'll say that these things do vary not only from country to country but also by company to company and it's always a good idea to consult your own safari company for advice on their own operation.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (19/08/09 11:07 PM)


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: shakari]
      #140810 - 19/08/09 11:36 PM

Quote:


In closing, I'll say that these things do vary not only from country to country but also by company to company and it's always a good idea to consult your own safari company for advice on their own operation.




This is the point of course,and so far the fellow that started the thread has come up blank with his requests for guidance from his professional. Mmm...

I'll say this, just from my experience in business. Looked at the other way, as a general principle of business, a pro who counts on a "bonus" for his livelihood ought to think twice.

"Straight commission" is always sounder compensation.

True bonuses {tips} are 100% subjective and not guaranteed and in fact there shoud be no hard feelings if they are not forthcoming. Daryl, tell your business compatriots to set their pay on straight commission and hard feelings will be a thing of the past!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #140813 - 20/08/09 12:13 AM

I take your point but remember you're talking about the way it works in your industry and/or in your industry and culture.

We're talking about Africa here and the rule of when in Rome should be applied.

The tip to the PH is slightly different to the tip to the staff in that unless he's a newbie and only just beginning his professional career, hit tip is probably not as important to him as a tip might be to a tracker etc. Although you are right in that any tip should be considered a bonus and there should be no bad feelings if it's either not forthcoming or smaller than hoped.

I did notice that the original poster had said he'd tried and failed to get hold of his outfitter......... and deliberately didn't comment on that because there's a lot of variables and pretty much any comment I could make would be uninformed and useless, so I decided it better not to address the issue at all.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: shakari]
      #140814 - 20/08/09 12:40 AM

Actually, Shakari, my industry is one of the most highly bonused in the world {insurance} and that is precisely why I feel the way I do. Good business principles apply regardless of the ease which which they are applied!

A man not worthy of a good tip is not worthy of his labor in the first place. A man worthy of a good tip is worthy of a higher commission in the first place.

I basically agree with you; we are stuck with what we are stuck with, but I'll take a known rate of pay over a promise or the subjective feelings of a customer {or employer} any day of the week. I have benefitted by that philosophy many times through my career.

Meaning no disrespect to anyone; If I get to set my own rate of pay and I set it in such a way that I expect or need tips in order to operate, then I have no one to blame but myself if I don't get a tip.

Remember, excellent performance is no guarantee of satisfactory compensation.

A contract is.

And...wrinkled brow...are we still waiting for the pro to return Our Man's calls?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #140816 - 20/08/09 01:11 AM

I take your point and we're actually in agreement, but it doesn't alter the fact that things in Africa don't work the same way as they do in the western world and if you're in Africa, then it's a very good idea to do things the African way.

Also remember that the staff and usually the PH are all employees and generally work for a relatively low salary so a tip is always welcome.

On the subject of PHs and pay, to give you an idea of how hard it is in this industry, we get approached every month by young guys who are new to the industry contacting us and offering to work for nothing but tips if we'll give them an entry into the world of Dangerous Game hunting so they can get some experience. Some even volunteer the use of their huntingtruck if we pay for the fuel we use.

We always turn them down but it's a very common offer......

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: shakari]
      #140817 - 20/08/09 01:17 AM

I'll add that I agree completely with you about contracts. We devote several pages of our site telling people how important a contract is and even give them samples of what they should expect in a good contract...... and we don't usually accept any payment from our own clients until after the contract has been agreed and signd by both parties. The only exception to that rule is with old/past clients who wantto book another safari and just send us money when it's convenient, in which case we just sit on it until they decide what they want to do and if they change their minds (which is very rare) we just return the money.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: shakari]
      #140820 - 20/08/09 02:43 AM

Let me re-state my position. I am not against tipping, per se. What bothers me is not knowing how much to tip. As a person who has to budget for a trip, I need to know how much to set aside for tips.

I've been on quite a few charter boats where the mate's tip is 10 - 15% of the trip fare. The policy is stated up front, and it gives a range so better performance can be rewarded. So, if I want to go, I multiply the charter fare by 1.15, and I know how much money to bring. Why can't it always be that simple?

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
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Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: Tatume]
      #140825 - 20/08/09 04:55 AM

Being a KIWI, tipping is so foreign to our way of thinking that for me it is something that would have to be bought up at the time of discussing the hunt price but after the base price was excepted.
Having said that I think Tatume's point is valid. How much and to who needs to understood up front then having a base to work from it would be the actual service given that would determine the amount. I would see it as a GST ( goods and services tax) that would be payed directly to those involved be comfortable with that.

Von Gruff.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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crkennedy1
.375 member


Reged: 05/12/08
Posts: 501
Loc: Utah
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: VonGruff]
      #140826 - 20/08/09 05:06 AM

Great comments and advice - thanks!!! I spoke briefly with my guide last night
(he was on his way out hunting with a client). I didn't get an opportunity to ask him about tipping, but we are scheduled to talk this weekend to make sure I have everything ready and I think that the tipping will come up in the course of our conversation. After reading the various comments, here's what I can tell you - my guide is also the owner of the concession (he's partners with his father-in-law). He seems to have several American clients, so it will be my assumption that he will likely be used to that kind of tipping. All of your comments are appreciated, particularly the article that Ripp posted and Steve Robinson's comments (since he's in SA, and that's were I'll be hunting).

--------------------
DOUBLE or NOTHING


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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Loc: GB
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: crkennedy1]
      #140831 - 20/08/09 06:31 AM

In my naive ignorance, before I went on my first safari last year I thought most PH's were pretty
loaded (i.e rich) Stewart Grainger types. I was soon disabused of this idea when I got there. They work bloody hard (up at 4.30 or 5) finishing late. My PH worked his arse off for me, a young guy (28) and as
far as I can see when all the odds and ends are sorted they don't make what they deserve. He is trying to get the deposit together for his first house. Jesus, risking your backside and struggling to get the deposit on your place when you get married ?? I like
the idea of tipping the local staff cash and your PH some equipment better than he has. My chap had a pretty battered Ruger .338 WM. I got him something better which I know he will appreciate.
Just my opinion, rgds, Mike


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bigmaxx
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Reged: 13/06/07
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Loc: Bowling Green KY U.S.A.
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #140872 - 21/08/09 03:00 AM

I consider the tip part of the cost of the safari. If I can't afford the tip I can't afford the safari. Tips are all the compensation some camp staff receive. Given the economy of countries like Zimbabwe, most rural Africans need all the help they can get. They earn it too.

--------------------
One day at a time...


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
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Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: bigmaxx]
      #140873 - 21/08/09 03:09 AM

Quote:

I consider the tip part of the cost of the safari. If I can't afford the tip I can't afford the safari. Tips are all the compensation some camp staff receive. Given the economy of countries like Zimbabwe, most rural Africans need all the help they can get. They earn it too.




That's fine, and I agree. But, how much is the tip? How can I budget for a safari without knowing how much it will cost?

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Loc: South Africa
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: Tatume]
      #140878 - 21/08/09 06:14 AM

Quote:

That's fine, and I agree. But, how much is the tip? How can I budget for a safari without knowing how much it will cost?




Mate, it's entirely up to you but the 'norm' (if there such a thing) really all depends on what country, area, company and type of hunt.

As an example, you can spend something like (excluding trophy fees) US$45K on a 21 day full bag safari with an average company or you can go right upmarket and spend US$100K+.

'Average' tip (just for the PH) on the former might be between US$500-1500 whilst the latter could be several times that...... very occasionally on an ultra luxury hunt it can be several tens of thousands....... but that's nowhere near normal by any means!!!

At the other end of the scale a plains game hunt in somewhere like SA might be a couple of hundred dollars in total.

Other factors might be things like your own feelings, culture and even income/affluence.

Personally, I don't even think about how much a tip will be and in some ways, esp from old hunting buddies, I'd prefer something like a book rather than cash........ Had a regular hunting buddy this year who gave me a 1923 copy of the RW handbook and was/am pleased as punch with it. (I am a serious book collector though)

I understand you problem and probably the best thing you can do is ask the outfitter (NOT the agent) when you're doing your research/

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (21/08/09 07:00 AM)


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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: shakari]
      #140887 - 21/08/09 09:36 AM

I'm an Aussie and as noted I do not come from a tipping culture. We do not know how. On both my previous Safari's to South Africa I clearly stated early in negotiations to both my P/H's that I do not tip and do not know how. It is a poor operator who has to rely on tips for a living.

I do however tip the staff who get paid low wages for menial work. A position I have been in myself a number of times to make ends meet. I guess its because I'm a bit left wing in my politics where the rich can look after themselves and the poor can share in the wealth. I do consult with the P/H as to what is appropriate. 1) Because I don't know what is, and 2) I also realise that you can spoil domestic staff in the employer/employee relationship.

I realise and accept that I can be criticized for being paternalistic and hypocritical for doing things this way. However at the end of the day, it's my money.


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DarylS
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: tophet1]
      #140893 - 21/08/09 12:14 PM

Quote:

I'm an Aussie and as noted I do not come from a tipping culture. We do not know how. On both my previous Safari's to South Africa I clearly stated early in negotiations to both my P/H's that I do not tip and do not know how. It is a poor operator who has to rely on tips for a living.







Be that and your opinion regarding the 'operator' as they may be - in your opinion, of course, tophet1.

Normal 'pay' for a guide in this part of the country is $100.00 per day. That does not cover the work involved and delivered in my opinion. Our day starts at 04:00 with lighting fires in the hunter's tents so the hunters have a warm tent to get up in and get dressed for the day and our day doesn't stop until 22:00 to 23:00 - every night working on skinning out moose heads, bear heads and feet - as well as normal chores around camp - hauling firewood and splitting it & helping the cook and also packing out moose meat from kill to camp.

'Normal' tips (those who tip) run in the $400.00 range, while some hunters are more generous. Some don't tip. Saying you don't know how - is ridiculous - in my opinion.

We don't guide for a living - we do it because we like to hunt. Here, the man who relies on his guiding to put food on the table is a starving man - we hunt/guide during spring for bears and falls for moose and bear mostly.
Guides have to have regular 12 month a year incomes/jobs and most like to make a bit more by taking vacation during the hunting seasons - or, we're retired on pension and want to make some extra play money in the spring and/or fall doing what we love - stalking bears or calling in a bull moose inside 50 yards so the hunter might hit it in the 2 1/2' diameter kill zone - sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. $100.00 a day doesn't cut it for the work involved, so we work hard, which is ethical and hope for a tip, which is also ethical. Sometimes we're disapointed - oh well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Loc: United States
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: DarylS]
      #140895 - 21/08/09 12:53 PM

Daryl, as you have in effect said, what you describe is a hobby, not a career,

A noble hobby, to be sure!

I am confused in that if the fellow expects {or needs} "X"-amount of $$, why doesn't he just work out what the daily rate would be and charge that? Seems like what you have set up is a recipe for guaranteed frustration and financial loss because you will always run into non-tippers or poor tippers.

I have a friend who has run me to a number of bear behind his hounds. He won't take a dime of compensation, not even a bag of dogfood.

So, tho he doesn't know it yet, I'm making him a knife out of a millsaw from a lumber mill his now-deceased sawyer father sent many a truckload of logs to. Got the blade roughed out, ground, polished and heat treated. Grips and scabbard to come. It'll be a gift. He'll like it.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: DarylS]
      #140897 - 21/08/09 01:02 PM

Daryl

I cannot speak for tophet, but what I was getting at is this.

I don't expect anybody to do what you detailed for $100.00 per day, guides or PH's are pros just like other people in other trades and deserve to be properly rewarded for their labours.

So if they need $300.00 a day or whatever to make a decent living then so be it, that is the rate and I will decide if I do or don't want to pay/cannot afford that.

I for one however do not like being told that a hunt is going to cost X and then at the end somebody thinks I am a bastard because I dont hand over 2 times X.

I don't take my car for a service, agree a price and then hand over twice the agreed when I pick it up, so why should hunting be any different.

I think it is BS to go hunting and then be told that unless I tip well then the camp employees will not get any pay.

Regards


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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Tipping Etiquette? [Re: DarylS]
      #140898 - 21/08/09 01:11 PM

Daryl,

The person who works for $100 (cash or salary) a day does so by choice as you alluded to. I won't be thanking them for making their own choices with extra financial remuneration from my pocket. I search for a product and they quote a price. I accept that quote or move to a different operator. I hire those people and we have a contract or an agreement.

Here in Oz if you don't like the pay or the job, you get a different one or you get some better qualifications leading to a higher paid job that can be in the same industry or a different one.

It's as simple as that.

Commence Rant:

The one thing that got under my skin in South Africa, and it happens here in Australia too, is the local price and the price for visiting outsiders. This happened on my first safari when my Outfitter and P/H organised a choice location for my family to hunt and stay. Once they found out we were foreigners, the price went up approx 250%. I recently enquired about a Water Buffalo Hunt in the Northern territory. I was sent the price list for Australian Hunters. So why am I different ?

The Local price is considerably less than for the outsider. Same product, same scenery. Why ? Because someone has repeatedly come in, splashed some cash around, big noteing themselves and ruined it for everyone else that follows. Do they get better service ? Possibly. Is the 'product' any better ? The client probably gets 'sucked-up-to' a bit better with the lure of extra remuneration. That kind of sycophant behaviour carries no weight in my culture and usually indicates a person not to be trusted.

This is not directed at you Daryl, but I say honestly work for your salary, cover your costs, make what profit you can and be proud of a job well done. Expect nothing else.

Edited by tophet1 (21/08/09 01:17 PM)


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