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NitroXAdministrator
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DR makers - similar names?
      #140386 - 11/08/09 02:07 PM

As many of us know, the new John Rigby & Co (London) Ltd have started up shop and are starting to showcase their fine looking shotguns, soon double rifles, and M98 bolt actions.

There however is considerable debate on the web regarding the Californian "Rigby" having a similar name.

Now thinking about it, many gun makers in the UK actually traded with similar names. I believe there were two "Hollis's" - "I. Hollis" and "A. Hollis". Also two "Jeffery's" - "W. Jeffery" and "W.J. Jeffery".

Is this correct?

What other similar marks were being sold?

The Hollis example might be quite applicable to the current "Rigby" duo ie widely differing quality standards.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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tinker
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: NitroX]
      #140393 - 11/08/09 03:00 PM

Different along a timeline or different concurrently..?

The Tolley name had different iterations.
Holland this and that too.
Didn't the Purdey name go through a change or two?

Then there's the Brit gunbuilders with 'shadow' Belgian 'imposters' or out-of-towners seemingly having succeeded in riding the company name in more-or-less spurious fashion.
W.Richards etc anyone?

My old man (a native Californian) pissed fire the day Rigby came to California. He seemed to have known something (or two) that I didn't know that day.
Go figure.

Every day someone writes a new page in the book called 'History'...

Mauser?
Luger?

How about Colt..!?




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mehulkamdar
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: tinker]
      #140395 - 11/08/09 03:09 PM

Tinker,

AFAIK W. Richards of Liverpool predated Westley Richards historically, but they were and are a small retail business, and not a glamorous name. They didn't model their name to make it appear like Westley Richards, and they seem to have concentrated on getting a small number of budget priced shotguns made in their name for retail sale. I don't think they ever pretended to be the more famous "Richards" business in their history and their name is a mere coincidence, not an attempt at making money off someone else's more famous name.

That said, several other companies did precisely this kind of thing and it happened not just in the UK but elsewhere as well. Victor Sarasqueta's death and his not having a successor saw several "Sarasquetas" spring up and start making guns in Spain, for example.

Good hunting, my friend!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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tinker
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #140399 - 11/08/09 03:33 PM

Mehul-


Thanks for the clarification and the history lesson.
The next round's on me!

*tinker hails the bartender, then realizes that it's just him and Mehul in the parlour, hands Mehul the decanter of tasty liquor...*


Cheers Mate!




Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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shakari
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: tinker]
      #140418 - 11/08/09 10:16 PM

Not English companies but I seem to remember there were two separate Rizzini companies both making shotguns but one was considerably better than the other.

With reference to John's original comment, there was also a Hellis gunmakers in the UK as well.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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mehulkamdar
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: shakari]
      #140425 - 12/08/09 12:06 AM

Steve,

The various Rizzini companies came about when the Rizzini family business broke up and different members went their individual ways. The same thing happened to another old Italian family, Zanotti. And Caesar Guerini is another brand owned by a Rizzini family member. While Fratelli Rizzini build very expensive guns, other members of the family have concentrated on budget guns so that there is no competition amongst the various divisions - I guess we could call this an amicable split.

The old Charles Hellis company had a similar family split which saw the Charles Hellis and Hellis-Rosson businesses. This, however, was a hostile one. I think both names are now owned by the same investing group which has nothing to do with the original founding family. Beautiful guns, to be sure!

Tinker,

My friend, I am looking forward to our having cocktails whenever we meet.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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shakari
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #140429 - 12/08/09 12:25 AM

mehul,

Many years ago, I bought a used (cheap) Rizzini from my local clay pigeon club for UKP25. At that time it must have easily had 250K shots through it. I shot for about 15 years and then gave it to my nephew when I moved out to Africa........ and he's still using it. Bearing in mind it was a cheap Rizzini as opposed to the more expensive version, it was a helluva good buy huh!

I now have an old Hellis boxlock that I've owned for about 15 years. It's not a bad gun but it's a non ejector and fairly plain and I'm just now in the throes of selling it to make room for 1923 sidelock ejector Dickson that a friend needs to get rid of as part of the new(ish) SA gun laws.

I've never been able to find much out about the Hellis so any light you can shed would be gratefully received. The gun is marked C Hellis & Sons and the number is 4234.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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mehulkamdar
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: shakari]
      #140506 - 13/08/09 07:00 AM

Steve,

My apologies for the late response. I did not have access to the internet as there was a cable failure and I just got back online a few minutes ago.

The new holding company that builds the Charles Hellis guns has a website at www.hellis.com and they own the rights to both the Hellis businesses. You could send them an e-mail and ask them about gun - they may have records. Unfortunately, I don't know much more than that as far as serial numbers etc are concerned.

Your old Rizzini gun must be exceptionally well made. That said, I have not heard a bad word about them - there are several at my club - and most people seem happy about them. In any case, why aren't you posting pictures here? You have to show your Hellis off on the Shotgun forums.

And good luck with the Dickson gun - I hope you get her soon. The most elegant guns ever made to my old eyes, by far! And the fact that they were a favorite gun of Geoff Boothroyd's suggests that not too many guns (if any) were better!

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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shakari
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #140507 - 13/08/09 07:30 AM

Mehul,

Thanks for the info. I've emailed the company await their reply.

I'll try to get some pics taken of the Hellis but it's a very plain gun and not very photogenic....... As for the Dickson, it's a bit knocked about, needs to be brought back on face and isn't a round action but I fell in love with it the moment I saw it............and I consider myself very lucky to get it because the owner was just about to hand it into the cops for destruction!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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9.3x57
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: shakari]
      #140512 - 13/08/09 09:02 AM

Since we've left the topic trail somewhat, I'll dive deeper into the high weeds a bit as I express my heartfelt sympathy for the poor Scots retauranteur who got dragged around the British court system for pirating the name of his eatery off the Trillions Sold burgermaker in spite of the fact that his tavern biz outdated their diner outfit by somewhere's around 200 years!!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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kamilaroi
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #140528 - 13/08/09 06:09 PM

I think the EU laws would knock out any attempt for Mexicans to get a case up in their (EU) jurisdiction.

Edited by kamilaroi (13/08/09 08:36 PM)

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400NitroExpress
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: kamilaroi]
      #140546 - 14/08/09 01:42 AM

Quote:

I've never been able to find much out about the Hellis so any light you can shed would be gratefully received. The gun is marked C Hellis & Sons and the number is 4234.



Steve:

According to the table in Brown, that number is between 1935 & 1939.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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shakari
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #140549 - 14/08/09 02:46 AM

Thanks buddy. Looking at the prices on the internet, I got a helluva good deal. The gun is only a fairly plain non ejector boxlock but it's tight as a nut and shoots pretty well and if I remember correctly, I only paid two or three hundred pounds for it about 10 years ago!

hopefully the makers will get back to me with more info.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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DandyofPunjab
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: shakari]
      #140551 - 14/08/09 03:26 AM

Here in India whenever a Henry Atkins from Purdey ,Beesley from Purdey or a William Evans From Purdey turns up on gun shelves because Indian climate most of times the markings are messed up so if they just spot Purdey written they get all excited and start thinking its a Purdey

It have been victim of that kind of mistakes few times.

Someone told me one day he got a call from an dealer who said there was a H&H shotgun for sale few days later when he saw the shotgun it was H&R single shot!!!!!!!!!!!!!! with the little rusting H&R looked like H&H, Holland and Holland commonly referred as H&H dealer thought with H&H markings it has to be Holland and Holland

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shakari
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: DandyofPunjab]
      #140556 - 14/08/09 07:22 AM

Hope no-one minds me taking this off topic, but I've gotta say that you guys are helluva good!

I've just had the message below.....and pics are below. Thanks for your help!

Now all I gotta do is find out what Lineman for Lerwill means!

Dear Mr Robinson,

I have been forwarded your enquiry by David Ingles of Charles Hellis gunmakers London as I hold the company records temporarily for research purposes.

gun number 4234 is described as a 12 bore A&D non ejector with 26" barrels and 2 triggers (Reliable model). It was built and placed into stock on 1st July 1938 and sold in November of that year to Lineman for Lerwill for £12.10 shillings.

The gun was built to Hellis's specification by William Howell of Birmingham.

Hoping this information proves helpful to you,






--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (14/08/09 07:24 AM)

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mehulkamdar
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: shakari]
      #140558 - 14/08/09 08:02 AM

Steve,

Congratulations, and thanks for the pics, my friend! That is sophisticated simplicity if you ask me! And now that you have the gun's history through an official source, I hope that makes it even more valuable to whoever buys her from you.

Good luck with the Dickson. You must post the restoration pics when you get her and work to get her back in action again.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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shakari
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Re: DR makers - similar names? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #140559 - 14/08/09 08:07 AM

Eish, the CFR have just refused my application for the Dickson, so now I have to appeal!!!!!!!!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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