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ArizonaHunter
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Loc: Arizona
Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double
      #138907 - 14/07/09 03:59 AM

I'm not clear on something that is probably well understood by most double rifle aficionados on this board: When firing a large caliber double rifle, is it customary to pull the rear trigger first and then the front trigger? This would make sense to me inasmuch as when I have fired the lead trigger first on a couple of occasions I have inadvertently fired both barrels due to the recoil causing my trigger finger to slip and engage the rear trigger.

However, when watching various hunting videos, I have noticed that most hunters will fire the lead trigger first and then the rear trigger. Some are wearing gloves, which undoubtedly provides a little more grip. My triggers are very smooth; throw in some sweat and dust thrown and the trigger becomes damn slippery.

My double is at a gunsmith having some custom work done on the rear sight, and I was thinking of having the front trigger cross-hatched or otherwise provided with some manner of non-slip surface. Any thoughts out there?


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500Nitro
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: ArizonaHunter]
      #138909 - 14/07/09 04:52 AM


I fire front trigger first.

If you are "doubling" the gun, then you are doing something wrong and need to learn how to shoot it correctly IMHO.

However some others may disagree.

Get the trigger cross hatched, that might help.
Check the trigger weights so that the second / rear trigger is heavier than the first so it is less likely to fire on being "tapped" accidently.


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mickey
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: ArizonaHunter]
      #138910 - 14/07/09 04:56 AM

Pete

There is no question. A Double is set up to fire the front trigger first. You should be putting the trigger at the front joint of your finger. If you do this it won't slip off.

It is not a hair trigger so it just the tip is not needed. If you feel you need to cross hatch the trigger go ahead but then you need to disassemble the action, black the trigger and you end up with something the next guy may not appreciate. Better to concentrate on the correct method.

If you search the question here you will find many discussions of this but always the same conclusion.

Use the rifle the way it was intended and built.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: ArizonaHunter]
      #138912 - 14/07/09 05:28 AM

Kim:

No, when doubles are regulated at the factory, they're fired in R-L order. It DOES sometimes make a difference in regulation when firing in reverse order, because you're reversing the barrel heating order that it was regulated with. With some rifles it makes no significant difference, but with others it sometimes does.

A few observations. The kind of double discharge that you mention is part of the learning curve for heavy caliber double rifles, and firing the left first is not a panacea. I see you have a Merkel. Merkels are regulated at the factory firing in normal R-L order, just like everybody else's, and it appears that maybe they're not fired L-R at all. I've seen several Merkels in recent years double discharge when the left was fired first due to burrs on the sears that gave no trouble when fired in normal order.

Further, one of the advantages of a double is instant selection of bullet type (soft in one barrel, solid in the other). To use that advantage, you may find a need to fire whatever is in the right first. If you can't fire either barrel first with no fear whatsoever of a double discharge, that option isn't available in front of game.

Personally, I'd avoid hunting with a double rifle that I felt the need to fire in a certain order to avoid a double discharge. The confidence just wouldn't be there for me. I much prefer to master the type sufficiently that the order simply doesn't matter. The answer is ridiculously simple: all you have to do is keep your trigger finger mounted on the front trigger through the recoil impulse when firing the right first. Most people learn to shoot with the front half of the pad of the first digit of the trigger finger on the trigger. For quite a few folks, that just doesn't work on double rifles, especially with hands that are wet, sweaty, or bloody, and a different technique is the only answer I know of. In my observations of others experiencing this problem though, it does seem a hard habit for many to break. Try placing the trigger in the crook of the first joint of the trigger finger. It won't matter if your hands are dipped in STP, your finger won't slip off.

As for stippling or chequering the front trigger, I suppose it might help some. I've shot quite a few DRs that had such treatment on the front trigger. It's a nice bell or whistle, but I've never noticed it make a difference. I've never had a problem with smooth triggers though.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #138913 - 14/07/09 05:35 AM

Quote:


If you are "doubling" the gun, then you are doing something wrong and need to learn how to shoot it correctly IMHO.





... or of course there is something wrong with the triggers which a gunsmith may need to correct ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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400NitroExpress
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #138915 - 14/07/09 05:40 AM

Looks like Nigel, Mickey and I were writing at the same time. I think this one represents the best bottom line view of this subject:

Quote:

If you are "doubling" the gun, then you are doing something wrong and need to learn how to shoot it correctly IMHO.




I agree entirely. Either the gun is failing mechanically and causing it, or the shooter is causing it, so...it either needs to be repaired or mastered.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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500Nitro
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #138916 - 14/07/09 05:45 AM


John NitroX

Out of 30+ doubles I have owned or own ATM
and probably 50+ I have shot, I have only had ONE
that doubled when i first took it down the range
and that was my Westley 500/465 - which promptly
went to the gunsmith and had the thing adjusted
- problem solved.

That's a small percentage.

Not too sure on your Jeffrey
- what did that turn out to be ?

From my experience, Doubling is more often than not caused by the operator.


I also saw that the original poster had a Merkel 470
which I also have so I assumed that it unlikely to
be the gun having seen quite a few new Merkel's
being shot.


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ArizonaHunter
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #138933 - 14/07/09 08:57 AM

Thanks for the advice, gentlemen. Truth be told, it is my presumption that the double firing (and it has only been a couple of times) is caused by my trigger finger slipping and engaging the rear trigger - but I can't be sure. The possibility that there is a burr or some other mechanical issue is something I intend to explore more carefully.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #138962 - 14/07/09 08:59 PM

Quote:


Get the trigger cross hatched, that might help.





An interesting idea carried out by Alexander Henry 125 years ago and seen on his double rifles.



I don't know whether he had the problem of doubling in mind. I have seen the same detail on small caliber A. Henry doubles.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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zimhunter
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: CptCurl]
      #138986 - 15/07/09 05:42 AM

I have owned several doubles,mostly 9.3x74r's. Don't have any trouble with any of them doubling ,but on second thought that is because they have only one trigger I imagine. When I bought my 470 I began to have a problem doubling. Once let a couple of PH friends in Zimbabwe shoot it and both doubled it. It was definitely not a malfunction. I then switched to rear first and problem went away. I suppose one could get in the habit of shooting a heavy double 'properly' but I would believe most do not shoot them that much ,I know I don't. It is ,for me, a matter of cost and the plain old fact they are not pleasant to shoot. I know there are people who profess to like inflicting pain upon themselves in this way ,I'm not one of them. To me a sport has to be moderately enjoyable for me to participate which is why I don't hunt ducks,I hate to be wet with clothes on. I do not hunt in the snow as I don't like to be excessively cold either. I don't shoot viciously recoiling rifles any more than I have to for the same reasons. I will endure moderate discomort for a brief period to acheive a desired outcome such as taking game in Africa and will use the required tools to do the job, but will take every advantage to reduce this discomfort as much as possible and to me pulling the rear trigger first is one of the ways I accompolish that. I would prefer a single trigger but most heavy doubles come with 2 and I know the old crap about singles not being 'reliable' which to me is mostly BS but they also cost quite a lot as options which is why I had 2 triggers on my 470. I worked the double desire out and no longer have to have one. I once thought you could not truley experience Africa without carrying a double but after several safaris and many game animals I have proven to myself ( me only does not apply to all of course)that I can derive equal satisfaction of a hunt in Africa with a nice bolt gun, even one with of all things, a scope sight, on it. Just one old man's thoughts on the subject.

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500Nitro
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: zimhunter]
      #138987 - 15/07/09 05:50 AM



I wonder whether the triggers o new DR's are set up at the same bend or angle as older DR's ? (Triggers are not always in alignment it seems).

ie If the front trigger is bent so it makes it less likely
to slip off.


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: zimhunter]
      #138993 - 15/07/09 07:04 AM

Quote:

I have owned several doubles,mostly 9.3x74r's. Don't have any trouble with any of them doubling ,but on second thought that is because they have only one trigger I imagine. When I bought my 470 I began to have a problem doubling. Once let a couple of PH friends in Zimbabwe shoot it and both doubled it. It was definitely not a malfunction. I then switched to rear first and problem went away. I suppose one could get in the habit of shooting a heavy double 'properly' but I would believe most do not shoot them that much ,I know I don't. It is ,for me, a matter of cost and the plain old fact they are not pleasant to shoot. I know there are people who profess to like inflicting pain upon themselves in this way ,I'm not one of them. To me a sport has to be moderately enjoyable for me to participate which is why I don't hunt ducks,I hate to be wet with clothes on. I do not hunt in the snow as I don't like to be excessively cold either. I don't shoot viciously recoiling rifles any more than I have to for the same reasons. I will endure moderate discomort for a brief period to acheive a desired outcome such as taking game in Africa and will use the required tools to do the job, but will take every advantage to reduce this discomfort as much as possible and to me pulling the rear trigger first is one of the ways I accompolish that. I would prefer a single trigger but most heavy doubles come with 2 and I know the old crap about singles not being 'reliable' which to me is mostly BS but they also cost quite a lot as options which is why I had 2 triggers on my 470. I worked the double desire out and no longer have to have one. I once thought you could not truley experience Africa without carrying a double but after several safaris and many game animals I have proven to myself ( me only does not apply to all of course)that I can derive equal satisfaction of a hunt in Africa with a nice bolt gun, even one with of all things, a scope sight, on it. Just one old man's thoughts on the subject.




Well, there are lots of ways to rationalize not being able to master something simple.

You don't shoot DRs much, so...that means nobody else does. That's a little much, don't you think?

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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500Nitro
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #138996 - 15/07/09 07:36 AM


400

I notice a lot of people seem to think that.

They forget that we have clubs over here that shoot
every month plus a fair few go hunting with them.


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zimhunter
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #139007 - 15/07/09 08:29 AM

It seems I said it was just one old man's opinion. They have masochists in all societies but it is usually considered a psychological disorder by most people. They have eating contests and I don't enter them either although I like to eat as do most people. That seems to be the problem with both extra large bore shooters and double rifle aficianados that they don't seem to appreciate that there are people who have other opinions of both. If I have offended anyone for their desire to abuse themselves in this manner so be it,they are MY views and until I am told I cannot make them known on this forum I shall persent them as I feel like it.

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9.3x57
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: zimhunter]
      #139013 - 15/07/09 10:00 AM

What good is a double if you can't shoot either barrel instantly?

If the fix is moving your trigger finger 1 or less centimeters that seems like a bargain. I touch off my varmint rifle with a different trigger contact than I use on a DA wheelgun, so it seems no big deal to "grab" the front trigger on a double a wee bit differently than I would the tripper on the rat buster.

As for masochism, that is another issue of course. If a fellow doesn't like recoil, that's OK by me. Truth is, most fellows don't. One only needs to hang around a public shooting range to find that out. For those who regularly make smoke with the big boomers, they have my hat tipped. Pretty neat hobby and quite useful, especially for those rascals down under that can wear their barrels out on critters that outweigh my hay burners.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: zimhunter]
      #139014 - 15/07/09 10:51 AM

Masochistic recoil
Eating contest
Abuse themselves

Geez I'm sick! I enjoy shooting my DR's, both the large bores and the small bores.

What you don't understand is that recoil can be mastered. It's not mastered by gritting one's teeth and suffering pain. It's mastered by technique.

Don't get me wrong. If I shoot 20 rounds through a .500NE I will have soreness in the shoulder joint, but I'm not bruised or otherwise battered.

I certainly agree with one thing you say: If you don't like it, don't shoot it. But that doesn't mean that because it hurts you and you find it unpleasant that everybody else does also. Just ain't so!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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9.3x57
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: CptCurl]
      #139016 - 15/07/09 11:18 AM

Quote:

Don't get me wrong. If I shoot 20 rounds through a .500NE I will have soreness in the shoulder joint, but I'm not bruised or otherwise battered.




I think that is the point those of us who don't own the big bruisers frequently miss.

Reading the posts here has helped me understand the satisfaction some get from shooting big'uns, and I applaud it.

Recoil fatigue is a reality. It might occur after 300 rounds of .556 or 10 rounds of .577. It is relative, obviously, to the smack per round. What I experience with 60 or so rounds from my .375 H&H at a sitting might be what another fellow experiences with many fewer rounds of a heavier caliber. We both enjoy the experience!

All this yap to say that I sure do not consider a guy nuts just because he likes a gun he can only shoot 15 or 20 rounds from before he gets drunk.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: zimhunter]
      #139028 - 15/07/09 03:47 PM

Quote:

they are MY views and until I am told I cannot make them known on this forum I shall persent them as I feel like it.




Don't recall that anyone said you couldn't?

Quote:

They have masochists in all societies but it is usually considered a psychological disorder by most people.




Masochists? I don't think anyone mentioned masochism, except you. Myself, I don't like recoil. If a rifle hurts me, I don't shoot it anymore. That's why I'm picky about stock design and fit. A hunting partner has a lovely custom Win M70 .375 that comes in at 11 lbs with scope. Five rounds with it, and I'm done for the day. I won't shoot it anymore. Another friend has a .577/100 Cordite/750 bullet NE, that has never hurt me. Then again, I know how.

Quote:

If I have offended anyone for their desire to abuse themselves in this manner so be it




"Abuse"? That's absurd. Like I said, if it bothers me, I don't do it anymore. There's no good reason for a fine double rifle to be painful to shoot. You assume otherwise because you've not had the experience to learn otherwise.

You also missed my point entirely. My point was, all that is required to avoid the nastiness of a double discharge is to learn the proper way to address the front trigger, which is butt simple. It takes a masochist to insist otherwise. Some people just can't learn something that's different.

Quote:

What good is a double if you can't shoot either barrel instantly?

If the fix is moving your trigger finger 1 or less centimeters that seems like a bargain. I touch off my varmint rifle with a different trigger contact than I use on a DA wheelgun, so it seems no big deal to "grab" the front trigger on a double a wee bit differently than I would the tripper on the rat buster.




Excellent post, 9.3, and EXACTLY right!

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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eagle27
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #139031 - 15/07/09 04:28 PM

I have not owned a DR and have only shot lower powered DR's at times, but I have certainly used some old poorly stocked SxS shotguns over the years which have booted and kicked me around particularly when only a youngster. Out of this I have never ever experienced a double discharge, although I would have thought some of those old 12 bores would have been pretty worn in the internals and most likely to due to mechanical failure.

Like a few on this post have indicated they do, I tend to use a fuller trigger finger contact on any firearm I'm using. My current single trigger O/U shotgun allows me to quickly select barrels with a flick of the thumb to suit chokes and cicumstances when hunting wildfowl so do accept the usefulness of a double trigger DR in being able to select bullet types (SP or FMJ).

I'm not sure that I could master using a rear trigger first then shifting to the front trigger on a DR particularly if facing a charge or a situation requiring getting two shots off in a hurry with out having to think about the process. I imagine for most DR or DB shotgun users with double triggers the natural process, when under stress anyway, is front trigger first then dragging back to the rear?

Edited by eagle27 (15/07/09 04:29 PM)


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500Nitro
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: eagle27]
      #139032 - 15/07/09 04:35 PM

eagle

You could master it. It takes practice, something not everybody does before they go on a hunt !!!!

And if you haven't practiced, mentally and physically before you face a charge, you are likely to fumble and get brown stains like when you were a baby

No, seriously, if you practice, it becomes so natural
that you don't even know your trigger finger has slipped
onto the next trigger.

Edited by 500Nitro (15/07/09 04:40 PM)


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eagle27
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #139076 - 16/07/09 04:50 PM

nitro

I think I will avoid the brown stains and stick to single triggers. By the way do all single trigger setups on DRs and shotguns rely on recoil from the first shot to to set the trigger for the second barrel? Seems to in most shottys I've come across but don't know about DRs. If so, this would not be ideal in the case of a misfire in a DG double, rare as misfires are these days? I suppose this is another advantage of the double trigger.


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Bramble
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: eagle27]
      #139077 - 16/07/09 07:05 PM

Almost exclusivly S/S DR single trigger setups are machanical.i.e. not recoil set.

Regards


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Paul
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: eagle27]
      #139078 - 16/07/09 07:08 PM

Eagle27, most Winchesters and my Berettas, at least, seem to have 'mechanical'single triggers
rather than inertia ones.

One of the advantages of double rifles with two triggers is reliability. Even if one lock malfunctions, you've still got another.

I've given up using single tiggers over the past few months, to train for Africa - shooting sporting clays with my father's old game gun. They're mostly too far away but, unlike skeet, you always get to shoot twice. Hitting targets is hard but trigger selection much improved.

One-piece safety-selectors tend to jam in the middle, I've found. I hardly ever got to change barrel sequence with them, anyway, yet do quite often with double triggers. Were I starting my shooting career again, I'd stick with them.

As to your finger slipping off the front trigger and catching the rear one, KPete, I don't suppose there could be excessive LOP? If the finger does not wrap the front trigger to some extent, I could imagine it might slip off.

Cheers
- Paul


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zimhunter
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: Paul]
      #139085 - 16/07/09 10:26 PM

My Merkel 141 8x57r SxS had a single trigger and it was inertia set. To keep the record straight this is not an opinion but a fact. It was also non-selective.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Question on the Trigger Sequence in a Double [Re: eagle27]
      #139126 - 17/07/09 03:31 PM

Quote:

By the way do all single trigger setups on DRs and shotguns rely on recoil from the first shot to to set the trigger for the second barrel?




Be careful here. The suggestion that mechanical STs on double rifles are nearly universal just isn't true, and I wouldn't want an inertial ST on a DR. Further, many of the STs available on DRs are non-selective, which I wouldn't want either. For example, both the Merkel and the Chapuis single triggers are non-selective, and I believe both are inertial, although I'm not sure about the Chapuis.

Quote:

Like a few on this post have indicated they do, I tend to use a fuller trigger finger contact on any firearm I'm using.




Same here, and I think that gives you a leg up. When I bought my first DR long ago, I had never fired a double with double triggers. My double shotguns were all SST. I had the same fears you have, in spades. I didn't think I could ever remember to switch triggers. I never had a hiccup, and have never had a double discharge.

Quote:

I think I will avoid the brown stains and stick to single triggers.




The only rifles I've used for 20 years now are DT double rifles. My shotguns are still all double/SST. I switch back and forth without thinking about it, and never miss a beat. I wouldn't worry about it.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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