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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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prof242
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Reged: 10/02/04
Posts: 54
Loc: Colorado, USA

Strong, inexpensive 12ga
#138860 - 13/07/09 03:05 AM

As a follow-up to my rifled choke question, of the inexpensive 12ga SxS's on the market today, which of them would you consider a good candidate for making a fun 12 bore slug gun? I'm interested more in longevity, value for dollar.

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: prof242]
#138862 - 13/07/09 05:44 AM

Greener Empire

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AkMike
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
#138877 - 13/07/09 04:29 PM

J P Sauer!

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"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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DarylS
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: AkMike]
#138897 - 14/07/09 01:03 AM

Baikal is probably one of the best for this conversion.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: DarylS]
#138900 - 14/07/09 02:40 AM

Quote:

Baikal is probably one of the best for this conversion.

Just a quick question re the Baikal.

They have never really come across to me as a particularly big action or have a large Water table like the Greener Empire.

Why do you think the Baikal is a good option ?

In regards to the Greener, the Water Table being so large
is one thing that makes them very suitable for conversion.

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DuggaBoy
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
#138931 - 14/07/09 08:32 AM

Zabala 213

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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
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Loc: South Florida

Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: DuggaBoy]
#138932 - 14/07/09 08:45 AM

I just purchased a Stoeger Uplander Combo just for this purpose. It is a hefty 12 gauge with screw in chockes. It also has bushed firing pins....and a set of 20 gauge barrels for $349.00 (new in box) at Bass Pro Shops. I am going to get a pair of Carlso rifled choke tubes, Folding leaf sights from Jeffs Outfitters and I have some ideas for a special front sight.

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crkennedy1
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
#138939 - 14/07/09 11:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Baikal is probably one of the best for this conversion.

Just a quick question re the Baikal.

They have never really come across to me as a particularly big action or have a large Water table like the Greener Empire.

Why do you think the Baikal is a good option ?

In regards to the Greener, the Water Table being so large
is one thing that makes them very suitable for conversion.

500Nitro, please excuse my ignorance but what is a large water table? I've never heard of that before. What does it mean?

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DOUBLE or NOTHING

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: crkennedy1]
#138940 - 14/07/09 11:11 AM

Have a look at the length of the Action.

They are far longer than other actions.

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tarawa
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
#138941 - 14/07/09 11:21 AM

I wouldn't think that action length would matter if you were just making a slug gun. If you were converting to a cartridge rifle, I believe length would be important.

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: tarawa]
#138943 - 14/07/09 11:26 AM

Still a fair amount of force coming back on the action.

Each to their own.

We know the Greener works for 12ga and 577NfB,
that's all.

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tarawa
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
#138944 - 14/07/09 11:37 AM

I love the Greeners but have yet to come across one reasonable enough to use for a conversion.

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: tarawa]
#138945 - 14/07/09 11:49 AM

Quote:

I love the Greeners but have yet to come across one reasonable enough to use for a conversion.

They don't have to be that good.

After all, you chop the barrels anyway.

Stock should be in good nic though.

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DarylS
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
#138970 - 14/07/09 10:38 PM

Baikals have always struck me as being quite strongly constructed for a SXS shotgun & for a slug gun, they don't need to handle long brass cases with huge powder charges in the 30,000PSI range - but probably would as several .50/90's etc. have been successfully built on them, I think.

They are innexpensive which meets the criteria requested and have solid ribs, as far as I know, for mounting sights.

Looking over the 'pelters' (pellet shooters) at tradeexcanada, I felt a Baikal, with it's chome lined bores would be the one I'd choose to make up a dedicated smooth slug gun.

If I wanted to rifle the chokes for a Paradox-type gun, I'd go for a double with short 26" tubes, no plating.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: DarylS]
#138971 - 14/07/09 10:41 PM

Thanks for that.

Over here, Greener Empire's are cheap as,
obviously not so in some other parts of the world.

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DarylS
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
#138974 - 14/07/09 10:48 PM

BRNO's would also fit the bill nicely, I believe. They've some engraved side plate actioned BRNOs that look quite nice for that job.

I am not familiar with the Greener Empires.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: DarylS]
#138976 - 14/07/09 11:14 PM

Have a look at this link and see the full discussion
but Marrakai points out something interesting

"I should add that the Greener 'Empire' is a massive shotgun with a long action-bar. The Brits distinguished fairly well between 'game-guns' and their 'pigeon-guns' or 'fowlers'. The latter two are usually heavily built, long-chambered, and proved for heavier loads. Many early pigeon-guns even had 3-inch chambers. This distinction is not always clear-cut in Continental or American guns.

Furthermore, a 12-bore Greener 'Empire' is about 3mm wider across the breech-face than the 10-bore Zabala! True! Might pay to put the calipers across that Centaure before making a decision, though the one on GB sure looks wider! I'll measure my Greener's chamber-wall thickness on the weekend and report back. I have three Empires BTW, two of which are still 12-bore shotguns! "

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=39054&page=3&fpart=4&vc=1

and this which is the 577 built on a Greener.
http://www.hotkey.net.au/~orrs/GreenerStory.htm

It shows the long action / water table of the Greener
very well.

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prof242
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 500Nitro]
#138983 - 15/07/09 03:23 AM

Thanks for the info. As far as a Greener, everyone I've ever seen was considered a collector's item by the owner and priced aoccordingly. The Baikal could be a possibility, considering I already own one of their .45-70 double rifles. A friend has a Stoeger Uplander with which he bird hunts. It seemed a handy piece.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: prof242]
#139083 - 16/07/09 10:22 PM

Greener Empire hands down.
Al

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Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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prof242
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Loc: Colorado, USA

Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
#139087 - 16/07/09 11:04 PM

For those of you who recommended the Greener Empire, the average cost I've seen on the web is over $3,000. How is that INEXPENSIVE? This is to be a fun gun for playing with, hunting hogs, and maybe other things.

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9.3x57
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: prof242]
#139088 - 16/07/09 11:10 PM

Quote:

For those of you who recommended the Greener Empire, the average cost I've seen on the web is over $3,000. How is that INEXPENSIVE? This is to be a fun gun for playing with, hunting hogs, and maybe other things.

I was kind of wondering the same thing, not to mention the fact that one must find one that would be a candidate for chopping up first. Maybe you and me merely have shallow pockets...

...or maybe they are cheap elsewhere than in the Great Mountain West...?

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9.3x57
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 9.3x57]
#139089 - 16/07/09 11:15 PM

Also would be curious to know if a Greener is actually stronger than a DR Baikal?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 9.3x57]
#139090 - 16/07/09 11:42 PM

I was thinking of Inexpensive as being in the $150.00 to $350.00 range. A used Baikal and the BRNO's fit this range.

I also read the initial poster as desiring a double slug gun to be left in 12 bore, not re-barreled for a rifle ctg. and be left for the use of round ball or slugs, with irons dovetailed into the rib.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (16/07/09 11:44 PM)

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450_366
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: DarylS]
#139102 - 17/07/09 07:05 AM

Not knowing the steel used in the greener, it could well be that a smaller frame in modern steel is stronger then the old one.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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500Nitro
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Re: Strong, inexpensive 12ga [Re: 450_366]
#139103 - 17/07/09 07:25 AM

If Greener Empire's are $3000, someone is making a killing
for what is an average, normally plain, boxlock Shotgun
that are mostly Extractors.

450-366

Size is something in that they are normally bigger than other boxlocks so easier to accomodate 577 et al.

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